Music was distracting

[willj1365]

I was very disappointed to find out that a nearby church continues to have a ‘band’ playing a mass.

I haven’t attended this particular church in about a year, but in that time the construction was completed on the new building and it is a beautiful stone church that reminds me of the church I attended while I was growing up. I needed to go to the later mass because we were returning from vacation (i messed up the time at the church where we were staying).

At the old building they would have a ‘band’ play at the early sunday morning masses. I use the word band, because there is a drummer, guitar player, bass guitar player, and an acoustic guitar player along with at least one vocalist (sometimes more than one). I was really offended the first time I went to this church and had to listen to them play during the mass.

My hope was that when the new church was finished, this music would not be brought over, since it was pretty clear that the parish went for an older more traditional style construction. However, I was wrong. When we attended the 5:30pm mass, the musicians were 2 guitarists (one using an electric guitar with distortion!) and the drums and other instruments were in plain view.

I feel like I need to tell someone about this. Not being a parishoner puts me in an awkward spot, but in my opinion, it’s very distracting and really takes away from the mass. I am sure the musicians have their hearts in the right place, but they are obviously making it about them. At the end of mass last night, the parishoners actually applauded!
I was disgusted -

 

[TLM08]

It’s all part of the effort to make the Mass more appealing to a younger crowd. But if the Mass is truly a continuation of the same sacrificial death of Christ on the cross as that of Calvary, then it would seem to me that distortion guitars, drums, applause, and dancing of any form is highly inappropriate at best and at it’s worse downright blasphemous. No wonder so many young catholics are confused and do not attend at all.

Non-catholic Christians make no such claim during their worship services, therefore the music tends to be more upbeat and I see no problem with that. At that point is is strictly a matter of preference. God likes all music that is clean in content and gives him honor and praise.

 

[Shin]

Write a polite letter and/or speak to the priest in person.

Be very polite but firm about it.

And pray first and last.

Letter writing and prayer have changed things. I’ve noticed positive changes at local parishes of mine, gradual, sometimes small and quick, sometimes over years, with prayer and conversation about what is best.

Our prayers do get answered.

 

[FastLearner]

I have read on here a few times that electrified instruments are not permissible during Mass. As a part of this thread, I looked up Canon, and it doesn’t state anything about music during Mass. Next, I went to the GIRM, which allows bishops to set the requirements. So I went to the USCCB (Sing to the Lord) and that only mentioned recorded music, not electrified music.

If someone has a reference, it would be appreciated.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

It’s not clear to me whether you attended the 5:30 Saturday or 5:30 Sunday Mass. Most often those times are attended by more of the young adult members of the church. If you would like to continue attending this parish because of the architecture, then try another Mass time. You will probably find more traditional music (choir, piano, organ) at the mid-morning Sunday Mass. You may even find a Mass without music at all–or only a piano and cantor–first thing Sunday morning.

I assume that you found another parish to attend in the intervening year. Since there is nothing in the rubrics forbidding guitar music, I don’t think you have a place to complain since you are no longer a parishioner there and you don’t know for sure if other music is played at other Masses. It may be that this ‘band’ plays at the 5:30 Mass every week, or perhaps this was a special Mass or some sort.

You’ll find that, in general, music is different during the summer months when choirs don’t rehearse or young adults home from college get together to do special music offerings.

 

[Gertabelle]

I feel like I need to tell someone about this. Not being a parishoner puts me in an awkward spot, but in my opinion, it’s very distracting and really takes away from the mass. I am sure the musicians have their hearts in the right place, but they are obviously making it about them. At the end of mass last night, the parishoners actually applauded!
I was disgusted -

Yes, you are in an awkward spot, as the GIRM and Sing to the Lord do **not **say “bands” of this sort are not allowed. In other words, it’s not your parish and you don’t like the music, but they aren’t breaking any rules. So go back to your home parish and thank God for it. Yes, you can write a letter stating your experience and opinion as a visitor to this parish, but that’s really about all you can do.

Incidentally, the choir for which I play sings many traditional hymns, and there are still a few people who lead applause after mass every Sunday – drives me bonkers!

I have read on here a few times that electrified instruments are not permissible during Mass. As a part of this thread, I looked up Canon, and it doesn’t state anything about music during Mass. Next, I went to the GIRM, which allows bishops to set the requirements. So I went to the USCCB (Sing to the Lord) and that only mentioned recorded music, not electrified music.

FYI, many (most?) churches that have organs have electric organs, not pipe organs. That is to say, most organ music is “electrified.” Short of putting every instrument known to man on either the “yes” or “no” list, it’s going to be pretty difficult to say which instruments can and can’t be used. Most drums aren’t “electrified” but I still don’t want to hear them at mass.

Gertie

 

[willj1365]

It’s not clear to me whether you attended the 5:30 Saturday or 5:30 Sunday Mass. Most often those times are attended by more of the young adult members of the church. If you would like to continue attending this parish because of the architecture, then try another Mass time. You will probably find more traditional music (choir, piano, organ) at the mid-morning Sunday Mass. You may even find a Mass without music at all–or only a piano and cantor–first thing Sunday morning.

I assume that you found another parish to attend in the intervening year. Since there is nothing in the rubrics forbidding guitar music, I don’t think you have a place to complain since you are no longer a parishioner there and you don’t know for sure if other music is played at other Masses. It may be that this ‘band’ plays at the 5:30 Mass every week, or perhaps this was a special Mass or some sort.

You’ll find that, in general, music is different during the summer months when choirs don’t rehearse or young adults home from college get together to do special music offerings.

It was the Sunday night, 5:30 mass. The other time I attended this parish was in the old church at the 10:30am mass, which is geared towards families. I learned this was the one where the ‘full band’ plays. I regularly attend mass and I am a member of another parish which I really like, and wouldn’t leave - the only reason I attended there yesterday was the later mass time.

My frustration is with the fact that it appears to me to be a performance for these people, and its so distracting and distasteful to try to ‘get noticed’ during mass! I am a young father of four and definitely will not be attending this parish on a regular basis, but I just feel like I need to say something because it’s so inappropriate. I certainly will take everyone’s advice and pray about it and be very polite but firm and attempt to talk to the pastor.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Can someone explain to me the intrinsic difference between having a guitar band playing, and an orchestra based on strings playing (for which many settings of the Mass were written?

 

[Shin]

I have read on here a few times that electrified instruments are not permissible during Mass. As a part of this thread, I looked up Canon, and it doesn’t state anything about music during Mass. Next, I went to the GIRM, which allows bishops to set the requirements. So I went to the USCCB (Sing to the Lord) and that only mentioned recorded music, not electrified music.

If someone has a reference, it would be appreciated.

There are some rubrics on Church instruments that forbid secular instruments, but they may be out of date and no longer in effect. Or just ignored.

I forget where they are, and I know there is some up to date stuff on this subject, but Church music law is not my speciality.

Yes electric organs, no at least in the past to ‘secular instruments’.

You could try contacting the USCCB or Vatican to see if there are any restrictions on musical instruments that may be used. The former is easier to get in touch with, has some limited delegated authority (believe it or not, horrifyingly enough) in some matters, but is less reliable than the latter. And yet still since they have that authority you can get some final answers and stop looking up the chain of command there at times.

I know there are if the instrumentation laws are tossed, also some laws on what music itself may or may not be used. Besides all the past ‘recommendations’ in regard to music from the Vatican, oft ignored (resemble or be Gregorian Chant, sacred in style, etc.).

So if the band is playing the wrong music that could be an angle to pursue too. If you were to pursue it.

A music expert could speak on this more authoritively, if he knew what we were talking about from the documents and not just parrotting what he was told by someone with wishful thinking.

 

[Shin]

Can someone explain to me the intrinsic difference between having a guitar band playing, and an orchestra based on strings playing (for which many settings of the Mass were written?

Ask a Pope who became a saint, his Motu Proprio here.

Not all Popes become saints. Even when they are very popular.

There was a good article on music in Our Lady of the Rosary Library too if I recall, a musician speculating on some of the fundamentals. Gave me some food for thought.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

It’s all part of the effort to make the Mass more appealing to a younger crowd. But if the Mass is truly a continuation of the same sacrificial death of Christ on the cross as that of Calvary, then it would seem to me that distortion guitars, drums, applause, and dancing of any form is highly inappropriate at best and at it’s worse downright blasphemous. No wonder so many young catholics are confused and do not attend at all.

Non-catholic Christians make no such claim during their worship services, therefore the music tends to be more upbeat and I see no problem with that. At that point is is strictly a matter of preference. God likes all music that is clean in content and gives him honor and praise.

TLM08:

willj1365 didn’t describe applause & dancing during the Mass (People applauded when the Mass was OVER, and that’s OK according to the GIRM). If you find raucous music and celebrations offensive, I strongly suggest you avoid the Maronite Divine Liturgy (which I love), The Catholic Masses in Africa, where the Church is GROWING in the face of persecution and poverty, & even parts of the Anglican High Mass (esp. when some congregations cut loose on the Gloria in Excelsius Deo).

In the West, we tend to emphasize the Sacrifice of the Mass and forget that it’s a replication, a mirroring of the Heavenly Liturgy. That’s why those in the East call it the Divine Liturgy - So they can remember that what they are doing here on earth is being done in heaven. Now I’m going to use Patristic Terminology - If parishes did a better job of teaching Catholics the “Mystagogia” (the Mysteries of the Divine Liturgy), Catholics would be more grateful & more would tithe, Catholics would receive the Lord with real reverence and would want the priest to face “Liturgical East” so he could LEAD them in the Divine Liturgy.

That has NOTHING to do with loud music or dancing (& I hate “Liturgical Dancing”) & everything to do with bad theology and bad catechesis. This has everything to do with the failure to teach basic doctrine to our young adults and to live out those doctrines ourselves. These kids saw the Church condemn ABORTION and then watched as Pro-Abortion “Catholic” politicians walked forward and received the Lord’s Body and Blood! They heard about the “Child Molestation” Crises in the Church (Look, I know most of the victims were boys between the ages of 8-14), but the Bishops screwed this one up so badly it was pitiful. And, When just when you thought they couldn’t screw things up any worse…

If I hadn’t dealt with being in a cult and then with a priest who was caught in a similar cult, and realized how many stops the Lord pulled the get me back, I might have left (again), too…

Don’t point the fingers at the guitar stand, unless the lyrics they’re singing are patently heretical or just simply nonsense - We have too much work to do elsewhere to get wrapped up in issues of taste, esp. if what they’re doing draws others to the Lord and HIS Church.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[thunderballs75]

These instruments are completely licitly used according to the GIRM, even if it is not preferable to you or I personally. What I really hate though, is not that people are allowed to do this, but that they completely disregard and scorn us for favoring traditional Catholic music instead. They try to force it on everybody. If we don’t like it, then we are the bad guys.

Also, remember that you went to the 5:30 PM Sunday Mass. This is almost always a youth Mass, so those usually go even further than normal. And I agree about clapping for human achievement at the end of Mass. They do it EVERY TIME at my parish. Not once have they forgotten to do this.

God bless.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Gertie:

The Organist at St, Mary’s performs professionally, so after each Mass, he cuts loose for 10 min. That will usually bring on a bit of an ovation. I’ve found the same at my new parish (Although they cheer a bit more easily - lower expectations?)…

Incidentally, the choir for which I play sings many traditional hymns, and there are still a few people who lead applause after mass every Sunday – drives me bonkers!

FYI, many (most?) churches that have organs have electric organs, not pipe organs. That is to say, most organ music is “electrified.” Short of putting every instrument known to man on either the “yes” or “no” list, it’s going to be pretty difficult to say which instruments can and can’t be used. Most drums aren’t “electrified” but I still don’t want to hear them at mass.

Gertie

It used to be the tradition at St. Mary’s that, when we could afford them, we would bring in an ensemble on Christmas Midnight Mass & Easter Day Mass to make both more celebratory. The ensemble included a couple of brass pieces & a drummer. They would sit in the Choir Loft with the Organist, St. Mary’s Schola & a small Chorus (talk about a crowded Choir Loft!). People used to come just for the Solemn High Mass, which (on Christmas Midnight Mass) would last for well over 2 hours. This did nothing to detract from the reverence but just made the service more beautiful…

I think part of the problem is that the Ordo Missae 1970 is already marginal when it comes to reverence and awe (esp. in Eng.). That many of the songs being used have been altered (“saved a wretch like me” becomes “saved and set me free” is a notorious example) so that the doctrine gets changed, while others are so “Man-Centered” you send expeditions searching for mentions of God and find Him under, “He should be so grateful for having us,” create a situation where the music detracts from the worship of the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings. “Youth Music” where many of the songs seem to be “Doctrine Free Zones” (There’s one I still remember from 28 years ago) can’t possibly make this bad situation any better.

I recently had an exchange where I was told, “The Bishops had approved the Missalettes” (actually, they hadn’t, because they can’t) - A LOCAL Bishop Approves the Missalette, and others buy it from that company, but the USCCB has no authority to APPROVE Missalettes - Only the Vatican has that authority, and the Vatican has never approved anything except the 1962 Edition of the TLM, the Latin Mass of the NO, the Translation of the NO & the Ignatius Lectionary. I didn’t call they guy on that, but just pointed out that the bishops didn’t have the time to check out all of the changes these people made to all of their Missalettes (the songs, not the text of the Mass, which is approved by the Vatican). He then told me the real reason - they’re CHEAPER, and the Archdiocese got a deal!

Think of that next time you’re singing a song where the words just don’t seem to fit the melody or the rest of the words, or even the doctrine of the rest of the song… Think about that next time you hear the American Bishops have objected to the new translation of the Mass:

usccb.org/liturgy/missalformation/index.shtml

You’ll need to download pdf’s, but the USCCB has had it for 3 years now… :sad_yes:
And, If the USCCB has their way, They’ll have it another 3+ years before we finally get a crack at it… 2009-12 :winter: &:snowing: Christmas 2012

If USCCB could make this “Go Away”, they would, but the Vatican, and a growing percentage of American Catholics who are getting accustomed to reverent liturgies won’t. If you want it sooner than 3+ years, you’ll need to download the pdf’s and write (respectfully) to your Bishops.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[Musicadmirer]

The closest parish has a Mass with two middle aged men that play the guitar and bass with backing music. They both dress like they’re performing at the Fillmore West. And no one can really sing along with the songs because the guy isn’t a clear singer.

That will probably be the first and last time I attend that Mass. It may not be heretical, (I don’t have the song sheet though), but it was unsettling.

Oh, but here’s my favorite. I attended a reenacted Stations of the Cross for Good Friday at a parish. They have this whole studio setup with a mixing board. What really made me upset is how they sang “I Hope You Dance” by Le Ann Womack during one of the stations! I have nothing against the song, but come on, during the stations for crying out loud!!

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Can someone explain to me the intrinsic difference between having a guitar band playing, and an orchestra based on strings playing (for which many settings of the Mass were written?

Bishop Basil:

Beloved Father in God, There really is no difference - It’s a matter of taste and of attitude. I’ve seen people such as John Michael Talbot do some some very worshipful and reverent things playing a guitar:

John Michael Talbot
Only in God
youtube.com/watch?v=HAiGAyp22JI
Holy is His Name
youtube.com/watch?v=9aYecuDlDYM&feature=related
Take up your cross daily
youtube.com/watch?v=Y57Qzaho3tc&feature=fvw

The problem happens when, such as one group I belonged to, the group is at the front (inside the sanctuary), upstaging the Divine Liturgy or what the West calls “the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass”. Another problem is when the leader of the group insists on singing songs that either have no real doctrine (I remember one song the group I was in sang almost every Sunday), have heretical doctrine or are so “Man-Centered” that the only time God is mentioned is to say how lucky He is to have us (there are a few complaints about these in these forums). These aren’t matters of taste, but these have nothing to do with what instruments are being used or what kind of music is being played.

I’m reminded of that every time Catholic Underground comes to my local parish. 400 or so young Catholics (16-35) come to the parish to praise the Lord, Pray and listen to Christian Music. I usually “bug-out” during the Christian Music under the rubrik of, “If it’s too loud, you’re too old.” I’ll politely say, I’m too old and leave, after spending an 1-1/2 hours praising the Lord with the kids (I’m 50 and old enough to be most of these kids’ father)…

I hope this makes things a little clearer.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[Renko]

It’s all part of the effort to make the Mass more appealing to a younger crowd. But if the Mass is truly a continuation of the same sacrificial death of Christ on the cross as that of Calvary, then it would seem to me that distortion guitars, drums, applause, and dancing of any form is highly inappropriate at best and at it’s worse downright blasphemous. No wonder so many young catholics are confused and do not attend at all.

Non-catholic Christians make no such claim during their worship services, therefore the music tends to be more upbeat and I see no problem with that. At that point is is strictly a matter of preference. God likes all music that is clean in content and gives him honor and praise.

I myself would never attend a mass with band music.

 

[iluvburpees]

I myself would never attend a mass with band music.

x2

I don’t go to mass to please my senses; I do it to please God. And the Traditional mass is truly “enjoyable” (enjoyable in the sense that it gives you the greatest peace in your soul).

 

[Traditional_Ang]

It was the Sunday night, 5:30 mass. The other time I attended this parish was in the old church at the 10:30am mass, which is geared towards families. I learned this was the one where the ‘full band’ plays. I regularly attend mass and I am a member of another parish which I really like, and wouldn’t leave - the only reason I attended there yesterday was the later mass time.

My frustration is with the fact that it appears to me to be a performance for these people, and its so distracting and distasteful to try to ‘get noticed’ during mass! I am a young father of four and definitely will not be attending this parish on a regular basis, but I just feel like I need to say something because it’s so inappropriate. I certainly will take everyone’s advice and pray about it and be very polite but firm and attempt to talk to the pastor.

willj1365:

Please read my posts - applauding has become quite commonplace, esp. AFTER Mass. It’s the way people in our society show appreciation. I wished they’d tithe, but I’ll take some showing of gratitude over none…

Take a look at the schedule - you’ll probably see that the 5:30 pm Sunday Mass was probably the “Youth Mass”, in which case, complaining to the Pastor won’t do any good, and just might serve to “still-borne” the parish’s one outreach to young adults… Complaining to the Pastor really needs to be reserved for issues of doctrine and irreverence - Mishandling of the Blessed Sacrament. Can you honestly say that what you’re going to talk to him about involves an issue of Doctrine, Lack of Reverence or Mishandling of our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament by one of the Sacred Ministers or the EMHE’s? or, Were you offended because your EXPECTATIONS weren’t met (you expected an ORGAN at a Youth Mass and got a Youth Mass instead), and then were offended when Young People do what Young People do?!?

I’m sorry, I just don’t hear Doctrine, Lack of Reverence or Mishandling of Our LORD Present in the Blessed Sacrament in any of your posts on this issue… I’m sorry that you were expecting an ORGAN MASS at Youth Mass and that what you got was a YOUTH MASS. Please remember that the LEVEL OF OUR SERENITY is INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL to the LEVEL OF OUR EXPECTATIONS, and consider this a lesson.

Call the Pastor and ask him which of the Masses use “Traditional Music” - You just might be pleasantly surprised.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

I myself would never attend a mass with band music.

Renko:

I’m sorry to hear that, because that would prevent you from attending a Mass on the basis of something that might have little to do with whether or not the Lord was “worshiped in the beauty of holiness” where those present “stood in awe of Him”.

I’ve been in a band that I could say wasn’t very reverent, but I’ve also been involved in “Youth Masses” and other Youth Services (Catholic Underground) that were very reverent where those present worshiped the Lord with their whole hearts and praised Him with their whole minds and loved Him with all their strength.

You would have missed these because you would have seen the guitarist (or the band) and left. I know there’s plenty of garbage out there - I’ve participated in some of it, but that shouldn’t cause you to make the type of blanket declaration that you made…

Remember, Although Christ died for you, we do the Mass for Him and to draw others to Him… Even St. Paul the Apostle said:
For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.
1 Corinthians 9:19-23 ESV
In the end, our needs and desires are secondary - The Lord comes first, and the needs of those who don’t know the Lord comes next.

I’m there as a servant, and those of you who’ve come to know the Lord and His Grace and Healing Power are there as servants as well… That’s why we’ve got to look at our expectations and ask ourselves what it is we’re thinking of complaining about.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[brotherhrolf]

Can someone explain to me the intrinsic difference between having a guitar band playing, and an orchestra based on strings playing (for which many settings of the Mass were written?

Claudio Monteverdi in the early 1600s used the same exact melodies in both his sacred choral music and in his operas…as did Gabrielli a few years earlier. The difference is twofold to me. First, the musicians were not the center of attention. They were in the choir loft or the various balconies. They were heard but not seen. I was never so relieved as a cathedral chorister as when the choir loft was rebuilt in my cathedral parish and we moved from standing to the side of the altar to the loft. The guitar bands in many modern churches are, de facto, the center of attention.

Second, is the isssue of amplification. That orchestra (based on strings) was amplified only by the acoustics of the church. I am perfectly aware that the saxophone was considered an “instrument of the devil” when it was invented (and I have heard perfectly acceptable saxophone and organ meditiations before Mass), When our “state-of-the-art” electronic organ (from the mid-60s) caught on fire during the wedding of one of my fellow cathedral choristers, it was replaced by an amplified Clavinova only to be replaced by a harpsichord (couldn’t be heard in the cathedral) and then a grand piano until we built a choir loft and a pipe organ. Aesthetics is a viable issue, Bishop. I don’t see our Eastern brethren utilizing electric guitars and amplified instruments.