Musical Instruments in Mass

[GiftofMercy]

Perhaps. I understand the point you’re making. I respect your opinion to which you are entitled as am I, but I prefer organ to piano for Mass.

We should start distinguishing between the Pipe Organ and standup organ in this discussion. They are quite different.

 

[GiftofMercy]

But it is my experience that Violin makers are more traditional purists than guitar makers and would probably never entertain the idea unless you begged them and paid them a lot…

One of my favourite movies is The Red Violin.

Yes yes, there are non Catholic themes in it. I watch them and say, glad I don’t believe in that!

 

[Peeps]

We should start distinguishing between the Pipe Organ and standup organ in this discussion. They are quite different.

This is sensible.

Another thing to remember about the organ is that it is played differently by each organist.

When I play, I PLAY!!! IMO, all those pipes are there for a reason, and that reason is not to “whisper” but to SHOUT to the Lord and make the seats tremble and the floor shake and the people unafraid to sing out with their full voices–none of this “whisper a prayer” business!

I obey the admonitions in many of the Psalms to “make a joyful NOISE unto the Lord!”

I think some CAF members prefer the organ because it’s quiet and meek and mellow and smooth and conducive to softness and meditation and silent prayer.

Well, maybe when your organist plays it. But I BLAST! You will be awake when I play! I use the trumpets and the other horns and I almost always start the hymns with a fanfare that I have prepared in advance!

I start loud and get louder! And most of the people tell me that they LOVE hearing that organ play full out! It’s a very powerful instrument designed by a very powerful organist who, to this day, people in our parish praise–and I don’t blame them! I’ve heard him play and he is worth hearing!

Of course, I only play the organ in my parish for the glorious praise songs, e.g., Crown Him With Many Crowns, or Holy God, We Praise Thy Name. I don’t play it for “The Servant Song” or “City of God”–these contemporary hymns sound better with a piano or guitar.

Interestingly, I believe someone in this thread surmised that the contemporary (St. Louis Jesuits) hymns were not written for guitar. I don’t agree with this, mainly because the concert by the St. Louis Jesuits that will be held later this summer advertises that these men will be playing GUITARS for the hymns that they wrote 50 years ago. So obviously the songs were written for guitars.

Anyway, think about it–every organist plays differently, depending on how they were taught. My teacher comes out of the Episcopal tradition, was trained in Paris (yes, he has played at Notre Dame!), and has a doctoral degree in composition and theory! He can PLAY!!! And that’s how he taught me–each verse of a hymn should be played differently, in such a way as to help the congregation understand what the verse is telling them.

 

[GiftofMercy]

“The Servant Song”

The Servant Song sounds very beautiful with the Pipe Organ. We do all our hymns with the Pipe Organ when in the Choir Loft. There has to be light and shade in any hymn.
The Pipe Organist (again make a distinction) that plays for my choir has an O.B.E for her services to Music and is very talented. Again she volunteers, as do we all.
She will also play the standup organs when we do not sing in the Choir Loft. Their quality leaves much to be desired but still she gets them to sing.

 

[John_the_Blind]

One of my uncles was a Pastor in a Church of Christ in North Carolina, and there they don’t use ANY instruments- a capella only- and personally I thought it was great. Another uncle is big into the ‘Sacred Harp’ singing- again, a capella- and you bet they’re pouring their heart and soul into their music. Neither of those turns out very polished but you can definitely feel something in that room when they’re doing it.

 

[DaveBj]

Another uncle is big into the ‘Sacred Harp’ singing-

My maternal ancestors were pioneers in that genre, and many of my cousins are still heavily involved.

D

 

[Peeps]

The Servant Song sounds very beautiful with the Pipe Organ.

IF the organist is good at selecting appropriate registration. This is a huge weakness for me. I know from years of experience how loud or soft to play to the piano so that even the people in the back of the clamshell can hear, but I have a hard time selection registration for the softer songs.

 

[dochawk]

I have been known to hit a high H# when poked.

I’ve been accused of singing in the Key of H . . .

One of my uncles was a Pastor in a Church of Christ in North Carolina, and there they don’t use ANY instruments- a capella only- and personally I thought it was great.

Did you ever nod sagely, and say, “Ahh. Like the the Orthodox and Eastern Catholics?” (and then run for cover)

:crazy_face:

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

After thinking about it a while, I don’t really care what instrument it is as long as it isn’t obnoxious or has an ugly sound. Otherwise I’m good to go.

 

[Peeps]

I personally don’t know of any, but I trust that Holy Mother Church DOES know. I simply can’t believe that thousands of priests, bishops, cardinals, and thousands of lay professors, teachers, evangelists, scholars, etc. would not know the truth and allow the Church to do something that is forbidden.

Why don’t you trust the clergy and the Catholic “academia” to know these things?

 

[on_the_hill]

My experience is the opposite. I have never heard an organ where the volume did not obscure most of the singing.

I used to attend Mass at our diocese’s cathedral. At the end of every hymn the organist would “pull out all the stops” (to use the idiom) and blast the organ to the high heavens. It was deafening, jarring, and really annoying. Bigger and louder doesn’t make it more holy.

 

[on_the_hill]

After thinking about it a while, I don’t really care what instrument it is as long as it isn’t obnoxious or has an ugly sound. Otherwise I’m good to go.

Agreed. People have gifts to offer. Why not let them offer? The idea that an instrument is forbidden is silly. Having been an official rule of the Church doesn’t make it any less silly.

With all the Church’s restrictions on the who and the how and the what and the where of Catholicism, just let people play instruments, for Pete’s sake.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

I value obedience more than preferences, so if the Church has put a prohibition, than I’d rather follow it.

 

[Peeps]

OK, so you believe that the leadership in Holy Mother Church should be honest and forthcoming with information. I don’t disagree with you.

So here’s a written document–The Basic Sixteen Documents of Vatican Council II (Constitutions, Decrees, Declarations)

Chapter VI, Paragraph 120–

"The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin church, for it is the traditional musical instrument, the sound of which can add a wonderful splendor to the church’s ceremonies and can most effectively elevate people’s spirits to God and things above. Other instruments may also be used in divine worship at the discretion and with the consent of the competent territorial authority as laid down in articles 22, 2, 37, and 40, provided they are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, that they accord with the dignity of the sacred building, and that they truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.

There you go–written documentation, unless, of course, you don’t accept Vatican II as a legitimate Church council. But it sounds like you do, as you were searching through those documents.

I just can’t imagine being someone who sits through a Mass cringing at all the perceived “abuses”, and refusing to be edified by the music just because it isn’t pipe organ and Gregorian chant sung by a male schola up in a balcony in the back of the nave. If I suffered from this kind of malady, I would move to wherever I had to move in the world to find the perfect Mass–and of course, once I got there, it would no longer be perfect.

I can certainly agree with you that Catholics should be careful and wary, considering the sex scandals and the very real occasions where priests and other leaders have led their parishioners astray into heresy and non-Christians doctrines.

But I also think we should trust the Church.

 

[Peeps]

As for the Pipe Organ, I’ve already commented on that, I believe in this thread. But JIC you haven’t read the whole thread (I don’t blame you–it’s hard to find that kind of time!), the pipe organ is a terribly expensive instrument that is beyond the budgets of many Catholic congregations in the U.S., especially rural congregations. Even an electric organ is expensive, although I was able to find a used one (22 years old) for $3500–my brother paid for it. However, in a small church, there are many more pressing needs for $3500 than an organ. An electronic keyboard is a very wise option for these churches, as it is not compromised by temperature and humidity changes, and it is easily transportable from nave to fellowship hall (background music for church socials?!).

Also, the pipe organ, or any organ, is not like the piano in any way except the keyboard. I am a classically-trained pianist from childhood, who started taking organ lessons in 2011 when I was in my mid-50s. It took me a full year before I was “ready” to try playing in church, and it was competent, but that’s all it was. I missed a lot of pedals! Now I am competent in hymns, and I can play the simple Bach pieces and other pretty preludes and postludes, but I am far from advanced, and I don’t dare play without practicing on the church organ first. A pipe organ is so different than an electric organ.

In this day of sex abuse fears, there is no way that a child or teenager will be allowed to practice on the parish organ without a parent present the entire time, which in many Catholic families, would be a hardship.

I believe that Holy Mother Church should study ways to encourage parents to get their children involved with piano/organ lessons from childhood, and provide financial aid to families who have children taking piano/organ lessons in exchange for the child’s playing in Mass when they are deemed competent by their teacher. I think that Holy Mother Church could do a lot more to produce good organists, and that if She doesn’t act soon, most parish pipe organs will be locked up and never used.

If you’ve studied the latest studies by the American Guild of Organists, the number of organ students enrolled in college programs has dropped every year, significant drop in the hundreds. It’s alarming how few organists will graduate in the next ten years, and there is no reason to believe that a revival of interest in the pipe organ is occurring anywhere in the U.S.

When our chapter of the AGO presents professional organists giving concerts in our city, even if there is no charge, we are lucky to have 50 people in the audience. Even interest in performance of organ has dropped.

 

[AlNg]

I just can’t imagine being someone who sits through a Mass cringing at all the perceived “abuses”, and refusing to be edified by the music just because it isn’t pipe organ and Gregorian chant sung by a male schola up in a balcony in the back of the nave

I like the Gregorian chant and I don’t like a lot of the post Vatican II music I have heard in Church. So I am that someone that you cannot imagine.

 

[pnewton]

At this time though, the Church hasn’t any prohibited instruments. There are guidelines, and individual bishops, or priests, may use those to prohibit certain instruments.

 

[TheBomb.Com]

You should never say “Because I said so” to children nor adult parishioners. This might make it seem as if you do not trust them with information or anything for that matter.

 

[pnewton]

The piano is not forbidden. Really? This sort of individual interpretation of older church documents is why we also have authority for the liturgy given to the bishop, and from him, the priest assigned to a parish.

 

[pnewton]

That letter was celebrating the centennial of the document. The principles remain in force, of course, though the specific disciplines do no. Doctrine is organic, yes. Discipline is subject to the current pontiff. The document you posted did not re-affirm the disciplines of the previous document on its 100 year anniversary.

If someone will point out where the Church believes that there is some sort of doctrine of pianos, then I will admit something is amiss. For now, I think the only thing amiss is appreciation of the role and authority of the bishop and priests.

I will stick with my bishop on this issue, and leave the rather odd way of interpreting Church discipline to those with some agenda other than the good in my specific parish.

I mean, I would never claim organs should never be used just because everytime I have heard them, I cannot hear one other person sing. “Religious singing by the faithful is to be intelligently fostered so that in devotions and sacred exercises as well as in liturgical services, the voices of the faithful may be heard…” It is not my place. I only care about one parish.

The key word is “expressly”. The bishop has the expressed authority over the liturgy. Use of piano (or any specific instrument) is not expressly forbidden.

I tried to find if there was any diocese where the bishop has banned piano, and mandated organ, or acapella only. Does anyone know if such a diocese exists in the United States? Elsewhere?

Whatever “interpretation” given by the local bishop or the parish priest cannot contradict the interpretation given by the Apostolic See

Allowing other instruments (piano, guitar) in the Twenty-first Century does not contradict anything Pope Francis has said. Your use of scare quotes is ironic, as you have nothing but your interpretation. At least bishops carry canonical authority.