Musical Instruments in Mass

[babochka]

You should never say “Because I said so” to children

My husband used to believe this and tried his best to follow it. Then the relentless demands of parenting a child who always had an argument for every reason came along. He rethought his absolutist position.

 

[snarflemike]

I’m actually finding this quite interesting.

 

[snarflemike]

The principles remain in force, of course, though the specific disciplines do not.

I know nothing about the workings of Canon Law, but to this outsider, this seems like a very squishy statement. Following the discussion with interest.

 

[pnewton]

I never said they were. I am saying banning pianos is not a universal liturgical law. So, which diocese follows your interpretation on this?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

There are quite a few things wrong with this kind of attitude; for starters, being an initiated member of the “Catholic academia” does not mean that one has the liberty to stop providing sources to back up one’s assertions; on the contrary, there is an even greater need to provide accurate, substantiated information the greater one’s position of authority or leadership is.
[/quote]
If I understand this criticism rightly, you are accusing all the Church leadership of dereliction of duty because one priest was unable to satisfy your request for primary source material in a matter of Church practice. I think you need to do a more complete survey before coming to your conclusion. You are unjustly assuming that no such source material exists because you were unable to find it and one priest was unable (or unwilling, as is more likely) to do the research for you.

 

[Peeps]

I’m actually finding this quite interesting

I’m finding it depressing.

 

[BartholomewB]

I’m finding it depressing.

I’m finding it instructive. I’m reading it as a homily expounding on Matt 23:24, the camel and the gnat.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

What research have you done to support your conclusion?
[/quote]

1. Almost every church I’ve been in uses a piano.
2. No living Church official has been cited saying it is not allowed.

I’ve spoken to multiple priests and canonists about this;… I’m not conducting a study on what people think the law is, but looking to see what the law actually is, as it exists in objective reality.

The objective reality is defined by what the Church says. At one time the piano was not considered proper practice. Now it is. That is a reality.

I mentioned an anecdote to emphasise the fact that neither I nor any of my well-educated acquaintances have ever come across evidence declaring Tra le sollecitudini revoked.

Are any of your well-educated acquaintances bishops? Why don’t you ask your bishop?

If it were so clearly revoked, why did these 200+ bishops, priests, and scholars not mention that fact at all?

Because it was not necessary?

If the priest could say, “Oh, don’t worry, it’s abrogated” with the confidence he showed me, one would assume that for someone of his level of education,… If a source exists which demonstrates that Pius X’s legislation has been revoked, it should not be so extremely difficult to find.

The fact that you are having difficulty finding it does not mean it does not exist.

And as for me “assuming” that such source material does not exist, why don’t you consider the fact that you, too, are making an assumption, namely, that the material does exist?

A very reasonable assumption, given that all the Church leaders I see are making the same assumption.

I’d like you to show me exactly where I accused any individual, or group of individuals, of a dereliction of duty.

Do you deny that the piano is widely in Church around the world, and that the Church leadership is silent about the supposed violation of a practice? If not, the only conclusion is that those leaders have neglected their duty to promote adherence to canonical practice.

Was my request not reasonable, especially given the fact that I was a member of the music ministry, and had ever right to know what the Church’s regulations were on what I was doing?

As I said, you probably have not asked the right people. Ask your bishop. The priests you did ask probably did not want to bother with something that they considered not important enough to find the exact point at which the practice changed. It is only your obsession with this one 116 year old document that has made it such an issue for you. The Church has clearly moved on.

 

[Peeps]

Do you deny that the piano is widely in Church around the world, and that the Church leadership is silent about the supposed violation of a practice? If not, the only conclusion is that those leaders have neglected their duty to promote adherence to canonical practice.

This is a really good point.

I got in trouble here for advising fellow Catholics to “trust their parents.”

But you see, I came from an Evangelical Protestant background (first 47 years of my life), and there were no “parents” to mind. It was all up to us.

In the Baptist churches that I was familiar with, division was considered a necessary step when people disagreed with each other. When a group of Baptists disagreed with a practice or teaching in their church, they felt comfortable breaking away from their church and starting a new sect of Baptists. (There are hundreds of varieties of Baptist churches.)

One of the reasons I was attracted to the Catholic Church is because she is Holy Mother Church, the Church that Jesus Christ founded, and the Church that has a “Papa” to obey.

I was tired of trying to make up my own mind and do all my own research and comb through the Bible looking for verses and passages to support my particular beliefs on any given issue! Those of you who have never been in that situation have no idea how scary this is! What if I’m believing a totally wrong doctrine? What if I’m misinterpreting this verse? Which of these many BIble teachers and preachers is actually truly speaking The Word Of God" and leading me into Truth? How do I KNOW that something is God’s will?

It was so restful to come home to the Catholic Church and TRUST my bishop (whom I had admired for decades before I even thought about the remote possibility of attending a Catholic church! He had a nightly radio show in our city, and when I was working 2nd shift at my lab, I listened to him with awe! I actually told my husband once that “this Catholic bishop sounds like an apostle,” and I had never heard of apostolic succession and had no idea that this bishop was a “descendant” of the apostles themselves!).

So when I come across Catholics like those in this thread who tell me that I should do my own thinking and studying and not just accept what my priests and bishops tell me–that really, really upsets me!

In fact, I am still upset that I got in trouble for telling people to “mind their parents.” I spent years, decades of my life, with no parents to mind, and now that I have a Holy Father and Holy Mother Church, I will trust and obey them! And when I hear someone imply that all the priests and bishops are wrong because they allow a piano in the church, a piano that I play several times a month for Mass–well, that hurts,friends! That’s really super scary to me.

It makes me want to back away from the Catholic Church because maybe–since they’re all wrong about the piano, maybe they’re all wrong about other things. Like my eternal salvation.

I’m sticking with my offensive belief–trust your “parents.” I don’t want to go back to Evangelical Protestantism where everyone is essentially their own little church.

 

[AlmaRedemptorisMater]

Not all churches have moved on. We’ve now put away the piano in our parish and its sits silent for the last several months.

 

[TheBomb.Com]

Is your parish better for it?

 

[AlmaRedemptorisMater]

So far, attendance is up, especially amongst millennial aged people. Due to the piano? Who knows, but switching to full time organ has certainly not hurt.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Not all churches have moved on. We’ve now put away the piano in our parish and its sits silent for the last several months.

Let me clarify my position. I did not mean to imply that all parishes have adopted the piano. I personally also prefer well-played organ music at mass. It is well within the rights of any parish, or indeed any entire diocese to specify practices for that parish or diocese that would prohibit the use of a piano or other instruments at mass, and those rules would be binding for that parish or diocese. What I meant by “the Church has moved on” is that the universal Church has moved on from a blanket prohibition for the whole world.

 

[AlmaRedemptorisMater]

Of course, you are right. I was being pedantic, in a way.

 

[dochawk]

Then the relentless demands of parenting a child who always had an argument for every reason came along. He rethought his absolutist position.

I found that the best parenting advice came from those without children, as they were unconstrained by experience, and sill knew everything

 

[snarflemike]

I found that the best parenting advice came from those without children, as they were unconstrained by experience, and sill knew everything

Mostly they knew they could do it better.

 

[paspec]

The Tritone was once demonized. Having more intervals than 4th and 5th in church music was once considered lascivious. Music evolves. So does music making. So does the perception of music and what it connotates. Just because we are used to the organ timbre in church, doesn’t make it the only valid instrument there (Although I love the organ sound within a church). Masses and Requiems have been composed to be performed during services by as eminent composers as Mozart and Beethoven. Just because an instrument’s sound or its connotation at the time doesn’t meet contemporary taste, doesn’t make it unworthy. It’s all sound waves, after all. And intention and heart is behind every music making.

 

[GiftofMercy]

Occasionally we have a grand piano in the Cathedral. Now that is special.

A recent survey of parishioners and their recommendations

#1 When the choir is not in house can we have some canned music playing hymns in Mass.

 

[pnewton]

No. Until I see where my bishop, or any bishop, has banned them, I do not accept the burden of proof. If only a minuscule percentage of bishops or priests ascribe to your interpretation (a correct word), or perhaps none, it is more likely that you are wrong than the whole of the Church. So, I will not accept the burden of proof. This seems reasonable to me, as I asked which bishops in the United States had banned pianos, and that question remained unanswered.

In the end, I am only subject in this matter to my priest, bishop, and Pope Francis. Practically, I only concern myself with those people that walk through the doors at my parish. I serve them.

 

[Peeps]

No, (name removed by moderator), I won’t buy this. You’re taking me for a walk on shaky ground, and I will not go with you.

It’s too dangerous. A lot of Catholics use your argument of “rare instance where a human superior may make a completely human error” to justify sins; e.g., co-habiting but continuing to receive Holy Communion without confessing and changing their life situation.

I realize that this example is a “doctrine” not a “discipline,” but when you start making up your own mind when it comes to the disciplines, it’s an easy step to start making up your own mind when it comes to the doctrines.

Your argument makes it easy to begin disrespecting and distrusting our bishops and priests, and that is the beginning of departure from Holy Mother Church.

If only a few dioceses allowed pianos in their churches, I might be inclined to think you’re right. But when parishes all over the United States have pianos, including in dioceses with beloved bishops who have been champions for righteousness and have even faced persecution–I simply cannot accept that ALL OF THESE RIGHTEOUS AND HOLY MEN men are wrong, and someone on the internet that I don’t even know is right.

I know from my years of experience as an Evangelical Protestant how EASY it is to misinterpret the Bible and other written literature and fall into error. Some very, very BAD cults and organizations have started and hurt people (even killed people) because someone was able to re-interpret the Bible and come up with a “pseudo-Christianity”.

And within Evangelical Protestants, there are huge differences in DOCTRINE as well as disciplines; e.g., the doctrine of water baptism which is being discussed in another thread on CAF. I know of many non-denominational churches that have abandoned this practice, as well as the practice of Holy Communion, because they believe it’s “just works of man.”

As for practices, there are Evangelical Protestants who have used the Bible to justify very harmful disciplines, e.g., the “no slacks, no tracks, and no blacks” rule that used to govern how some of fundamentalist churches conducted their Sunday worship services (and for all I know, still do).

There are priests and laypeople in the Catholic Church who have spent years studying the Church documents, and these people have not come to the same conclusion that you have arrived at through your personal study. I choose to trust them, not you.