Musical setting for the "Our Father" at Mass changes the words

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Aurelia

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Lately in my parish they have the people singing a version of the Our Father at Mass which changes the wording here and there. For example, instead of “lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.” it goes “Lead us not away from You.” and stops there. That doesn’t quite make sense to me–why would God lead us away from Himself? Anybody else using this version?
 
Yes, that’s an unusual change, which I think changes the meaning of the prayer. You might want to ask your pastor about it.

The musical setting my parish uses (which I believe is by Robert Beck) says “forgive our debts as we forgive our debtors”, rather than the common trespasses. Although I would rather use the familiar words, it is consistent with the versions of the prayer that appear in more recent translations of scripture. And it’s not such a big change in meaning. But honestly I think it’s used in this version because “debts” and “debtors” fits the composer’s rhythm better than “trespasses” and “those who trespass against us”.
 
I think there is some allowance to modify a few words (or repeat them) to fit a musical accompaniment. Normally I would try to provide a link to the relevant text that describes this, but right now I do not have time to do so.

That said, what you pointed out is a very extreme alteration which does not resemble the original at all. I have to believe this is going beyond what is allowed.

Take Bobby Jim’s advice; Speak to your priest.
 
Aurelia, which parish do you attend? My parish happens to do the same. I really wish they would just stick to the regular “Our Father”
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Aurelia:
Lately in my parish they have the people singing a version of the Our Father at Mass which changes the wording here and there. For example, instead of “lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.” it goes “Lead us not away from You.” and stops there. That doesn’t quite make sense to me–why would God lead us away from Himself? Anybody else using this version?
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msproule:
I think there is some allowance to modify a few words (or repeat them) to fit a musical accompaniment. Normally I would try to provide a link to the relevant text that describes this, but right now I do not have time to do so.

That said, what you pointed out is a very extreme alteration which does not resemble the original at all. I have to believe this is going beyond what is allowed.

Take Bobby Jim’s advice; Speak to your priest.
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I don’t believe words for prayers should be altered, especially the Our Father. Jesus himself gave us this prayer so it should not be altered for any reason.

God Bless,
Matt
 
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marty1818:
I don’t believe words for prayers should be altered, especially the Our Father.
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That is what I have always understood. Then just the other day I heard on the radio that there is some strict allowance to fit the prayer to music if necessary. I have not been able to confirm this yet with any documented references, so take it with a grain of salt.

Personally, I agree whole-heartedly. We should alter nothing.
 
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marty1818:
I don’t believe words for prayers should be altered, especially the Our Father. Jesus himself gave us this prayer so it should not be altered for any reason.

God Bless,
Matt
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Umm, it was altered by the Evangelists when they translated into Greek what Jesus had spoken in Aramaic. It was altered again by Jerome, when he translated the Greek into Latin, And it was altered again when it was translated into English.

DaveBj
 
Back when I was in college, I was in a folk group. The leader changed the Our Fatehr words to better match a chord. That lasted one week. The priest immediately said don’t change the words, change the music.

(The change was significant – not just a modern word replaced for an archaic word)
 
I do not have a problem as long as the words are an accurate, literal translation. Since there is more than one translation available, oviously, there is a narrow range for change. I would never allow changes done for musically purposes, which strayed from the literal meaning, “Lead us not away from You”, for example.
 
Any intentional deviation from the ICEL text of ANY part of the Mass is considered to be an abuse. The translation of the Pater Noster, as defined by ICEL is:

“Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be they name; thy kingdom come; thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us;and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.”

There is NO room for deviation from any ICEL text, however stupid it might be (and I think the Pater Noster and the Kyrie are the only two they got right). While the Mass offered is not invalid, it is made illicit by such deviation. So you might want to run that by your music director/pastor.
 
In my church we are using the Lord’s Prayer by C. Walker, from the Glory and Praise 2 hymnals.

#26 Lord’s Prayer
Our Father, who are in heaven, hallowed be thy name; thy kingdom come; thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever. Amen, Amen.
 
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CatholicNerd:
Any intentional deviation from the ICEL text of ANY part of the Mass is considered to be an abuse. The translation of the Pater Noster, as defined by ICEL is:
.
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Good point. I just looked in up in the sacramentary. The words are spelled out, as you said. That settles it for me.

On a side note, we have stopped singing it specifically at two masses which have a lot of our elderly parishoners. They expressed to the priest a desire to join in, but can not really sing any more. I thougth that was a great idea.
 
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DaveBj:
Umm, it was altered by the Evangelists when they translated into Greek what Jesus had spoken in Aramaic. It was altered again by Jerome, when he translated the Greek into Latin, And it was altered again when it was translated into English.

DaveBj
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Dave,
In my opinion altering the Our Father to translate it for people in their language is different from having an established version in English and then altering the English version simply to make it fit into music. When you translate something, it is expected to have subtle differences.

God Bless,
Matt
 
Aurelia said:
Lately in my parish they have the people singing a version of the Our Father at Mass which changes the wording here and there. For example, instead of “lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.” it goes “Lead us not away from You.” and stops there. That doesn’t quite make sense to me–why would God lead us away from Himself? Anybody else using this version?
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I just got home from mass and they sang this version. I hate it. I refused to sing it and said The our Father to myself. How can they change the words!?
 
msproule said:
That is what I have always understood. Then just the other day I heard on the radio that there is some strict allowance to fit the prayer to music if necessary. I have not been able to confirm this yet with any documented references, so take it with a grain of salt.

Personally, I agree whole-heartedly. We should alter nothing.
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My understanding is that you can repeat a word or a phrase to accommodate the music, you can’t go about changing words that alter the meaning. That was the rule with the Extraordinary Form too.

For example, the three settings of the new translation of the Mass commissioned by the Canadian Bishops all include a Gloria with the first line repeated as a refrain. Obviously that’s not how the Gloria is normally done, but it’s allowed because it’s the composition style and it changes nothing about the prayer.

In the Sanctus they opted to repeat the last “Hosanna in the highest.” In one of the Agnus Dei settings they we say “grant us, grant us peace.”
 
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