Musician and no Cantor

[Phemie]

I totally know what you mean, the psalms are my least favorite part.

Unfortunately, the Vatican II documents indicate that the Psalm is the main role of the cantor, haha.

The psalm and the gospel acclamation are the only places that a cantor is required. There is no reason to have a cantor elsewhere if you have a choir and they are certainly not used in ‘other’ churches where people sing with gusto. Besides, if you have to follow in a hymnal who’s looking at the cantor?

A few years ago I experienced an entire Triduum a capella with a cantor only for the psalms & alleluias and the congregation sang lustily because we used traditional hymns that they all knew.

 

[Guitar]

Guitar.

I’m not a musician but thought I’d add my two cents’ worth here anyway.

I enjoy praying through singing or chant. But why do so many organists/pianists ignore our limitations and continue using so many high-screechy notes? They seem to be calling the shots in my parish (with regard to music in the liturgy), not the cantors. Pianists have some training and some parishes give them a stipend (albeit usually small). It seems to me they should get off their high horses, be more flexible, and HELP the congregation to sing by lowering the keys of many songs. I’ve seen cantors struggle because they can’t reach the notes, let alone the rest of us.

I hear you!

Trouble is, the ability to transpose at sight is not common and it takes a lot of time to re-write and re-learn an accompaniment in a different key. It is enough of a workload for most amateur players with jobs and families to learn the music as it is published. Music is usually published in the key that would be correct for a trained singer or SATB choir and allows the song to “ring” and have the sonority it should have. That is simply too high for many ordinary folks. I can ask my congregation to tackle the musically correct key at times … but not for the opening hymn at eight o’clock in the morning. Or when a hymn with one high note is very new. I don’t automatically lower everything, but I do stop and think about it, and observe carefully how the people cope. And I have to say that a common fault among many keyboard players is they do not listen to what is going on round them. You can pick a keyboardist who does not ever sing themselves. They rattle off the published music and don’t seem to notice whether or not anyone is actually singing. About three times in the last two months I’ve come across organists/pianists in church whose other gig just has to be playing strict tempo for ballroom classes - absolutely oblivious to the fact that not even their choir could snatch enough breath and keep up. Electronic organs/pianos usually have transposers which allow players to easily take music down a notch or two without having to relearn it, but some players seem to ignore that feature too and I can only attribute this to a failure in observation skills or musical snobbery.

There are times when I would put musical correctness first, and I would never change the musically-correct key of non-congregational items but for congregational material I have learned that a semi-tone or even two makes a huge difference to congregational confidence and response. And as I say if something has to be taken down so far to make it comfortable that it suffers, I decide that item is not suitable for my congregation.

Consistency and getting your congregation to trust you counts for a lot.

I am often amazed at the keys some of my Protestant friends play hymns in. Then I notice that at their choral eucharists or evensongs or whatevers there are - seriously - as many people in the chancel as in the nave, often as not. They simply wouldn’t know whether or not their congregation was singing so as long as their choir is happy, all is well.

 

[Cat]

A couple of years ago, I did a little home study of the Catholic hymnal. I took ten “traditional” hymns and ten “contemporary” (30 year-old) hymns, and looked at the highest notes in the hymns and how long these notes were sustained or how many times they were repeated.

The traditional hymns contained more high notes than the contemporary hymns, and these high notes were sustained for longer times, or repeated more times in the traditional hymns. .

For the most part, the “contemporary” hymns are much lower than the traditional hymns.

But none of the hymns contained notes higher than the D above the C above middle C. This is considered part of the Alto (or Bass/Baritone) range, and should not be unreachable for people.

With all due respect, I would say that people need to learn how to sing.

It is obvious when we see the higher range of the traditional hymns that people used to know how to sing. I think that this is probably another skill of church-going Catholics that has disappeared (blame the liberals?!–actually, I do, because so many pop singers sing in a low range and many people sing along with them on the radio and get used to singing “low.”)

There are simple techniques that are taught by good school teachers that can help people to reach notes that they think are out of their range.

 

[malphono]

I think I understand what you are meaning by this. I’m not very learned at all with the role of the cantor for Eastern liturgies, but to my understanding cantors in the Eastern liturgies and even cantors in the Jewish faith have a much more intricate and trained role within their liturgies than the cantor for the OF mass. …

Anyway, hope this has some explanation regarding the cantor’s role.

Thank you. That helps quite a bit. It makes some sense to me now.

 

[agapewolf]

Guitar.

I’m not a musician but thought I’d add my two cents’ worth here anyway.

I enjoy praying through singing or chant. But why do so many organists/pianists ignore our limitations and continue using so many high-screechy notes? They seem to be calling the shots in my parish (with regard to music in the liturgy), not the cantors. Pianists have some training and some parishes give them a stipend (albeit usually small). It seems to me they should get off their high horses, be more flexible, and HELP the congregation to sing by lowering the keys of many songs. I’ve seen cantors struggle because they can’t reach the notes, let alone the rest of us.

Or perhaps you can get off your high horse and quit assuming that the musician is doing this just to spite you. This was a rude comment.

The ability to transpose is specialized skill, that, although i have developed the ability, many people are only able to read what is on the page.

Cat, I’m gonna rouse you (all in good fun). The title this thread got changed to “musicians and cantor” implies that the cantor/singer is not a musician! I’m sure I knew some jokes back in music school about this! (Just kidding around)

 

[Sarabande]

Cat, I’m gonna rouse you (all in good fun). The title this thread got changed to “musicians and cantor” implies that the cantor/singer is not a musician! I’m sure I knew some jokes back in music school about this! (Just kidding around)

hahaha! I know those jokes all too well, especially when we were in college. One of my instrumentalist friends will introduce me as, “This is ‘Sarabande’. She’s a mezzo AND a musician.” Usually the introduction is to other musicians, so this gets a good laugh.

That said, there is a reason why we singers unfortunately have that reputation. Let’s just say that there are more classically trained singers who can’t read music than classically-trained instrumentalists. Unfortunately, the sopranos and tenors usually got the worst rep, which is unfair, because so many of my colleagues are musicians nowadays. There have been a few famous conductors in the past who had a reputation of making their hired singers cry due to their lack of musicianship. Singers would be terrified to sing with these conductors because of their reputation of either blowing up on them for being “stupid”.

One of the biggest compliments singers can get is when a fellow musician says, “I love playing with you! It’s so nice being able to work with a singer who is a musician.”

 

[Sarabande]

I enjoy praying through singing or chant. But why do so many organists/pianists ignore our limitations and continue using so many high-screechy notes? They seem to be calling the shots in my parish (with regard to music in the liturgy), not the cantors. Pianists have some training and some parishes give them a stipend (albeit usually small). It seems to me they should get off their high horses, be more flexible, and HELP the congregation to sing by lowering the keys of many songs. I’ve seen cantors struggle because they can’t reach the notes, let alone the rest of us.

As Guitar and Agapewolf have mentioned, not everyone can transpose at sight, nor can everyone transpose the music on their own ahead of time. It can take a lot of time transcribing the music in a different key. And if a church music position is not the musician’s full-time job, there may not be any time to do a written transposition - if the musician is able to do it himself/herself.

One thing that needs to be known is that although there are church musicians who are egotistical and on high horses, the majority of them are not like that at all. Most are doing what they can to the best of their ability. I also know that a few publishers do publish some hymns in two different keys. Usually, the key that works best for the congregation as a whole is used. But not all hymns have this option.

Cat brought up a good point regarding the singing. Almost all of the hymns I’ve ever sung, whether they were more modern hymns or traditional hymns never go higher than the D above C above the middle C, nor go lower than maybe a B or A below middle C. And as Cat correctly pointed out, that is part of the range of an alto, which is a low female voice and also a normal range of an untrained voice (male or female). Most hymns were written in mind for a typical untrained voice. One hymn, though, that stands out in my mind as something a typical congregation usually has a difficult time singing is “I Am the Bread of Life”. I think that is because it makes the voice have to jump an octave on the “And I will raise you up on the last day”. In that hymn I’ve heard people in the congregation and untrained cantors screech or people like my dad just take the whole thing an octave lower. I can see that being hard to sing for most people.

I’m in total agreement with Cat that I think part of the problem lies with the fact that people today are so used to hearing belting, chest voices all the time with pop music, that they have no idea what it’s like to sing with their natural head voices. And everyone has a head voice.

 

[JPUSC]

hahaha! I know those jokes all too well, especially when we were in college. One of my instrumentalist friends will introduce me as, “This is ‘Sarabande’. She’s a mezzo AND a musician.” Usually the introduction is to other musicians, so this gets a good laugh.

That said, there is a reason why we singers unfortunately have that reputation. Let’s just say that there are more classically trained singers who can’t read music than classically-trained instrumentalists. Unfortunately, the sopranos and tenors usually got the worst rep, which is unfair, because so many of my colleagues are musicians nowadays. There have been a few famous conductors in the past who had a reputation of making their hired singers cry due to their lack of musicianship. Singers would be terrified to sing with these conductors because of their reputation of either blowing up on them for being “stupid”.

One of the biggest compliments singers can get is when a fellow musician says, “I love playing with you! It’s so nice being able to work with a singer who is a musician.”

I think this is so because the ability to sing is inborn as it is a natural human function whereas instrumentalists have to learn their craft and music theory is a huge part of that training.

Singers do have to get training, but instrumentalists depend much more on music theory. But yes, music theory is important for singers also.

 

[Sarabande]

I think this is so because the ability to sing is inborn as it is a natural human function whereas instrumentalists have to learn their craft and music theory is a huge part of that training.

Singers do have to get training, but instrumentalists depend much more on music theory. But yes, music theory is important for singers also.

This is very true to a certain extent. There will always be people who will have innate abilities whether that is with singing or even playing an instrument. (I’ve known a few instrumentalists - usually not classical instrumentalists - who know how to play their instruments very well, but don’t know a lick of theory. It’s all done by ear for them. My brother, for instance, plays the acoustic guitar beautifully, especially creating really passionate Spanish guitar pieces. He doesn’t read music, though.)

But where a naturally gifted instrumentalist will perhaps have parents who recognize their gifts and start them off with lessons for their technique and music training very young, classically trained singers don’t usually start their voice lessons until they are in their teens. And this is because the vocal chords can be hurt if started too young with regular training. Many times, these students have never had music lessons before then and just had a nice, natural voice which wants to be developed with a technique equal to the technique of their fellow classical instrumentalists.

I was fortunate to have started piano lessons when I was 4, long before I started taking voice lessons at 13 (which is actually young, but I looked like I was 16 at the time, so my teacher took me in, saw that I loved singing and was just very careful with me until I truly turned 16). That’s not to say I’m this great pianist. I’m not. I’m quite atrocious compared to my friends and colleagues who continued on in their piano studies, and will only play for my own private enjoyment. haha! I also had to work very hard because my voice teacher was a phenomenal musician who could read by sight and also had perfect pitch. I did not want her telling me that I was not a musician, nor did I want to be one of those singers brought to tears by brilliant conductors who had little respect for singers.

Really, singers should depend on music theory much more and I think that is becoming more important now.

 

[JPUSC]

But where a naturally gifted instrumentalist will perhaps have parents who recognize their gifts and start them off with lessons for their technique and music training very young, classically trained singers don’t usually start their voice lessons until they are in their teens. And this is because the vocal chords can be hurt if started too young with regular training.

Very true. I didn’t start lessons until my late teens and I’m probably gonna have to wait until my 30’s for my voice to fully mature.

 

[Sarabande]

Very true. I didn’t start lessons until my late teens and I’m probably gonna have to wait until my 30’s for my voice to fully mature.

That is actually quite normal. Most singers don’t come into their own until their 30s, and if you have a large, dramatic voice, or if the singer is a male, it usually takes even longer to mature. So don’t fret! There is a still a long time for the voice to sing, especially if you have a good technique and take care of your voice.

 

[Guitar]

Cat, I agree with your comment about learning to sing and about ranges. An alto should be able to sing 2nd F above middle C, but try that note on a most congregations in a hymn and see what happens.

I have to deal with reality, just as your posts here show that you do as well. Yes, people should learn how to sing and they should be taught more of it at school like they were in the old days and all that. Reality is that most of my congregation struggle with a D. My husband does and he was a child chorister and has been singing in church ever since. If I push these people to sing sustained Ds at the wrong time, I know they will not sing them. It’s no good me saying, “well they ought to be able to sing that”. Part of my job is helping them to sing better, yes, and I do that, but I just have to be careful about how I do it. And whilst choral and solo items should be in their musically-correct keys, there is nothing morally absolute about the published keys of some traditional hymns. (Especially when you consider that A440 as a universal pitch is a relatively recent phenomenon. Baroque pitch is A415, it was A392 in France, and pitches were lower than 440 through the Classical period.) Lowering some hymns by a semi-tone to cater for current conditions in a particular congregation does them no musical damage and often reaps rewards in allowing you to use congregational confidence to help them gradually realise they can sing higher they than think.

 

[JPUSC]

I hear you!

Trouble is, the ability to transpose at sight is not common and it takes a lot of time to re-write and re-learn an accompaniment in a different key. It is enough of a workload for most amateur players with jobs and families to learn the music as it is published. Music is usually published in the key that would be correct for a trained singer or SATB choir and allows the song to “ring” and have the sonority it should have. That is simply too high for many ordinary folks. I can ask my congregation to tackle the musically correct key at times … but not for the opening hymn at eight o’clock in the morning. Or when a hymn with one high note is very new. I don’t automatically lower everything, but I do stop and think about it, and observe carefully how the people cope. And I have to say that a common fault among many keyboard players is they do not listen to what is going on round them. You can pick a keyboardist who does not ever sing themselves. They rattle off the published music and don’t seem to notice whether or not anyone is actually singing. About three times in the last two months I’ve come across organists/pianists in church whose other gig just has to be playing strict tempo for ballroom classes - absolutely oblivious to the fact that not even their choir could snatch enough breath and keep up. Electronic organs/pianos usually have transposers which allow players to easily take music down a notch or two without having to relearn it, but some players seem to ignore that feature too and I can only attribute this to a failure in observation skills or musical snobbery.

There are times when I would put musical correctness first, and I would never change the musically-correct key of non-congregational items but for congregational material I have learned that a semi-tone or even two makes a huge difference to congregational confidence and response. And as I say if something has to be taken down so far to make it comfortable that it suffers, I decide that item is not suitable for my congregation.

Consistency and getting your congregation to trust you counts for a lot.

I am often amazed at the keys some of my Protestant friends play hymns in. Then I notice that at their choral eucharists or evensongs or whatevers there are - seriously - as many people in the chancel as in the nave, often as not. They simply wouldn’t know whether or not their congregation was singing so as long as their choir is happy, all is well.

Get Finale PrintMusic (the most basic of the Finale line) or something similar and use it to scan the sheet music. You can then have the software transpose it for you.

 

[Guitar]

Get Finale PrintMusic (the most basic of the Finale line) or something similar and use it to scan the sheet music. You can then have the software transpose it for you.

I have had all this sort of thing for a long time. I do bucketloads of charting and arranging for voices and instruments and instrumental ensembles, so these are tools of the trade - for me.

My point is that not many amateur musicians are set up to do these sorts of things and even if they were, for some amateurs playing a keyboard piece in a different key is a re-learning exercise and a lot of work. I am simply pointing out some of the reasons why keyboardists may play in keys too high for some people’s comfort. People shouldn’t necessarily assume malice on the part of the player.

 

[Sarabande]

My point is that not many amateur musicians are set up to do these sorts of things and even if they were, for some amateurs playing a keyboard piece in a different key is a re-learning exercise and a lot of work. I am simply pointing out some of the reasons why keyboardists may play in keys too high for some people’s comfort. People shouldn’t necessarily assume malice on the part of the player.

As always, totally agree with you!

 

[Cat]

I have had all this sort of thing for a long time. I do bucketloads of charting and arranging for voices and instruments and instrumental ensembles, so these are tools of the trade - for me.

My point is that not many amateur musicians are set up to do these sorts of things and even if they were, for some amateurs playing a keyboard piece in a different key is a re-learning exercise and a lot of work. I am simply pointing out some of the reasons why keyboardists may play in keys too high for some people’s comfort. People shouldn’t necessarily assume malice on the part of the player.

Thank you. I want only to accompany the people as they sing praises. Please everyone, remember that the piano player (or organist or guitarist) is a person, too, and has probably already played several Masses before they play the Mass you serve at.