Muslim and Catholic Cooperation

[AClark]

Hello,

I have heard a piece of age old logic, and I was unsure as to what the Catholic position on this particular logic would be. The logic is as follows : Since the Muslims (or any monotheistic religion for that matter) worship the one true God, and the Christians also worship the one true God, do they not therefore worship the same God?. I was wondering what the Church has to say on the matter. 

 Thanks!

 

[Muslim_Woman]

** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

… do they not therefore worship the same God?. I was wondering what the Church has to say on the matter.

What’s your opinion about this matter ?

And Welcome to the forum

 

[rossum]

I have heard a piece of age old logic, and I was unsure as to what the Catholic position on this particular logic would be. The logic is as follows : Since the Muslims (or any monotheistic religion for that matter) worship the one true God, and the Christians also worship the one true God, do they not therefore worship the same God?. I was wondering what the Church has to say on the matter.

From the Catechism of tthe Catholic Church:841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
This further references Lumen Gentium 16:But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.
and also Nostra Aetate 3:The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.

HTH

rossum

 

[jam070406]

That “plan of Salvation” also includes Jesus Christ as the one and only Savior.

When through ignorance, truly invincible ignorance mind you and not irresponsible or culpable ignorance, then it is possible – yet very, very hard – for a non-baptized person to be saved. When through excommunication or unjustified rejection of the Gospel, it is impossible for such a soul to be saved.

 

[ralphinal]

Muslims profess to worship the One true God. However, their understanding of that God is incomplete, limited, and flawed.

The specific issue is if it is flawed to the point that they no longer worship He that they intend to worship.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Muslims profess to worship the One true God. However, their understanding of that God is incomplete, limited, and flawed.

The specific issue is if it is flawed to the point that they no longer worship He that they intend to worship.

That’s what Muslims say about Christians.

But from your point of view, Jews are in the same boat. So do you say Jews don’t worship God either, but they worship something or someone else?

 

[ralphinal]

That’s what Muslims say about Christians.

But from your point of view, Jews are in the same boat. So do you say Jews don’t worship God either, but they worship something or someone else?

Jews have an incomplete view, but not a flawed or limited one. Likw Muslims, they do not accept the Trinity. That is how both are incomplete.

Both Jews and Christians have an understanding of God and man having a Father/Child relationship. Muslims do not.

Both Jews and Christians have an understanding of God as being incapable of lying to men or deception. Muslims do not.

Both Jews and Christians have an understanding of Free Will that is different than Muslims.

Those are the ones that pop into my head first.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Jews have an incomplete view, but not a flawed or limited one. Likw Muslims, they do not accept the Trinity. That is how both are incomplete.

Both Jews and Christians have an understanding of God and man having a Father/Child relationship. Muslims do not.

Both Jews and Christians have an understanding of God as being incapable of lying to men or deception. Muslims do not.

Both Jews and Christians have an understanding of Free Will that is different than Muslims.

Those are the ones that pop into my head first.

What is the difference between “incomplete” and “flawed or limited?”

 

[jam070406]

That’s what Muslims say about Christians.

But from your point of view, Jews are in the same boat. So do you say Jews don’t worship God either, but they worship something or someone else?

Ralphinal was much more kind then St. John Chrysostom:

Many, I know, respect the Jews and think that their present way of life is a venerable one. This is why I hasten to uproot and tear out this deadly opinion. I said that the synagogue is no better than a theater and I bring forward a prophet as my witness. Surely the Jews are not more deserving of belief than their prophets. “You had a harlot’s brow; you became shameless before all”. Where a harlot has set herself up, that place is a brothel. But the synagogue is not only a brothel and a theater; it also is a den of robbers and a lodging for wild beasts. Jeremiah said: “Your house has become for me the den of a hyena”. He does not simply say “of wild beast”, but “of a filthy wild beast”, and again: “I have abandoned my house, I have cast off my inheritance”. But when God forsakes a people, what hope of salvation is left? When God forsakes a place, that place becomes the dwelling of demons.

(2) But at any rate the Jews say that they, too, adore God. God forbid that I say that. No Jew adores God! Who says so? The Son of God says so. For he said: “If you were to know my Father, you would also know me. But you neither know me nor do you know my Father”. Could I produce a witness more trustworthy than the Son of God?

(3) If, then, the Jews fail to know the Father, if they crucified the Son, if they thrust off the help of the Spirit, who should not make bold to declare plainly that the synagogue is a dwelling of demons? God is not worshipped there. Heaven forbid! From now on it remains a place of idolatry. But still some people pay it honor as a holy place.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Both Jews and Christians have an understanding of God and man having a Father/Child relationship. Muslims do not.

But the Jews and the Christians say, “We are the children of Allah and His beloved.” Say, “Then why does He punish you for your sins?” Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination."

Both Jews and Christians have an understanding of God as being incapable of lying to men or deception. Muslims do not.

Muslims never say God is “incapable” of anything. Whoever desires honor [through power] - then to Allah belongs all honor. To Him ascends good speech, and righteous work raises it. But they who plot evil deeds will have a severe punishment, and the plotting of those - it will perish.

Both Jews and Christians have an understanding of Free Will that is different than Muslims.

Are you sure about that?

Say, "Whether you conceal what is in your breasts or reveal it, Allah knows it. And He knows that which is in the heavens and that which is on the earth. And Allah is over all things competent.

 

[ralphinal]

But the Jews and the Christians say, “We are the children of Allah and His beloved.” Say, “Then why does He punish you for your sins?” Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination."

Just because we are God’s Children does not mean he will not punish us. In Islam, can a father punish a child? Yes. Islam does not see God as Father but as master. A master never really loves a slave.

Muslims never say God is “incapable” of anything. Whoever desires honor [through power] - then to Allah belongs all honor. To Him ascends good speech, and righteous work raises it. But they who plot evil deeds will have a severe punishment, and the plotting of those - it will perish.

So, Allah is capable of evil? He can lie? He can sin? He can commit acts of violence for no reason?

Are you sure about that?

Say, "Whether you conceal what is in your breasts or reveal it, Allah knows it. And He knows that which is in the heavens and that which is on the earth. And Allah is over all things competent.

Pretty sure. The biggest difference that I see is that Christians and Jews say that GOd wants us to CHOOSE to love him and because of that love, we choose not to sin. Muslims say that God wants us to love him because we are his slaves and it is safer to choose the ways of God than risk angering God.

The specific part about Free Will is not that we do or do not have it. It is how it is applied to our relationship with God.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Just because we are God’s Children does not mean he will not punish us. In Islam, can a father punish a child? Yes. Islam does not see God as Father but as master. A master never really loves a slave.

Would a Father put a son he loves in fire forever? Doesn’t make sense.

So, Allah is capable of evil? He can lie? He can sin? He can commit acts of violence for no reason?

That doesn’t even make sense, Ralph. Allah is above the concepts of good and evil. It’s all good but not at a level we can comprehend. I mean, people think there’s evil in the world, and they think of poverity and disease and natural disasters. Some people even lose their faith over it, wondering how there can be “evil” in the world if God is “good.” They don’t understand what “good” or “evil” is with respect to God at all, who is above both.

Pretty sure. The biggest difference that I see is that Christians and Jews say that GOd wants us to CHOOSE to love him and because of that love, we choose not to sin. Muslims say that God wants us to love him because we are his slaves and it is safer to choose the ways of God than risk angering God.

What Muslims say that? I never heard Muslims say that. In Islam, a person chooses to love God and be grateful to God naturally, because God is merciful and has given us so much to be thankful for, and He has promised us even more than that. So Muslims love and worship Him. Muslims also believe that God, because He created us and knows what is best for us, has given us guidance on how to live, as a Mercy, so we follow it out of love. And because we love God, we achieve balance in our actions by having both hope in reward, and fear of punishment.

The specific part about Free Will is not that we do or do not have it. It is how it is applied to our relationship with God.

How is Islam different? I’d like to know.

 

[ralphinal]

Would a Father put a son he loves in fire forever? Doesn’t make sense.

Would a father disown a child?

That doesn’t even make sense, Ralph. Allah is above the concepts of good and evil. It’s all good but not at a level we can comprehend. I mean, people think there’s evil in the world, and they think of poverity and disease and natural disasters. Some people even lose their faith over it, wondering how there can be “evil” in the world if God is “good.” They don’t understand what “good” or “evil” is with respect to God at all, who is above both.

Some things are ALWAYS evil no matter who does them. You are saying a form of nominalism. If God does it, it is good no matter what. Natural disasters are almost never a part of God’s divine will. They are generally a part of his permissive will. There is a major difference.

This is a yes or no question: Would God Lie to people knowing it will cause some of them to go to hell?

What Muslims say that? I never heard Muslims say that. In Islam, a person chooses to love God and be grateful to God naturally, because God is merciful and has given us so much to be thankful for, and He has promised us even more than that. So Muslims love and worship Him. Muslims also believe that God, because He created us and knows what is best for us, has given us guidance on how to live, as a Mercy, so we follow it out of love. And because we love God, we achieve balance in our actions by having both hope in reward, and fear of punishment.

How is Islam different? I’d like to know.

Now, what you have posted is not like anything that I have seen from a Muslim. If what you say is accurate, then the issue of Free Will is the same. I may be corrected. Please allow me to study on that some.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Would a father disown a child?

I don’t know–I’ve never been one, and never will be one. So why don’t you tell me? Would a father do that to a child he loved? And if he did, would he then still be the father? Is putting a person in hellfire equivalent to disowning, in your mind?

Some things are ALWAYS evil no matter who does them. You are saying a form of nominalism. If God does it, it is good no matter what. Natural disasters are almost never a part of God’s divine will. They are generally a part of his permissive will. There is a major difference.

Please explain? How can something be God’s will but not God’s will? Or does God not have power over everything? Muslims believe everything that happens, or doesn’t happen, is part of God’s will.

This is a yes or no question: Would God Lie to people knowing it will cause some of them to go to hell?

When did God ever lie to cause people to go to hell?

Now, what you have posted is not like anything that I have seen from a Muslim. If what you say is accurate, then the issue of Free Will is the same. I may be corrected. Please allow me to study on that some.

I was loosely alluding to a statement by a famous scholar called Ibn al-Qayyim, who wrote that belief for a Muslim should be like a bird, with one wing of the bird being hope of reward in the hereafter, and the other wing being fear of punishment in the hereafter, but the head of the bird, the driving force really, is supposed to be love. Not sure why you never heard that from a Muslim before.

 

[ralphinal]

I don’t know–I’ve never been one, and never will be one. So why don’t you tell me? Would a father do that to a child he loved? And if he did, would he then still be the father? Is putting a person in hellfire equivalent to disowning, in your mind?

It might be. Heaven is our inheretance as a Child of God. If we say that we do not want heaven, we get hell.

In Catholic thought, the people in hell are not sent to hell because God wanted them there, but because they chose it. Basically, God, as Father, is allowing us to decide what kind of relationship we want with him for eternity.

Please explain? How can something be God’s will but not God’s will? Or does God not have power over everything? Muslims believe everything that happens, or doesn’t happen, is part of God’s will.

God never ordains evil. If evil occures, God allows it to, but he never allows it to reach its fullest and good always comes from it.

When did God ever lie to cause people to go to hell?

The Crucifixion and ressurection are central to Christianity. According to Islam, Jesus was not killed or crucified. However, it was made to appear that way. That means that God lied to people KNOWING that some would end up Christian because of it. Since Islam teaches that being Trinitarian is shirk, God lied knowing it would send people to hell.

I was loosely alluding to a statement by a famous scholar called Ibn al-Qayyim, who wrote that belief for a Muslim should be like a bird, with one wing of the bird being hope of reward in the hereafter, and the other wing being fear of punishment in the hereafter, but the head of the bird, the driving force really, is supposed to be love. Not sure why you never heard that from a Muslim before.

Because every Muslim site that I have been to ignores free will. They focus on God’s will, but never mans.

And the Muslims on here tend to be poor at discussing comparative theology. According to some, they are even heretical by Islam’s standards.

 

[Sister_Amy]

It might be. Heaven is our inheretance as a Child of God. If we say that we do not want heaven, we get hell.

In Catholic thought, the people in hell are not sent to hell because God wanted them there, but because they chose it. Basically, God, as Father, is allowing us to decide what kind of relationship we want with him for eternity.

Here’s a question for you, since you say heaven is our “inheritance.” Does every person born deserve to go to heaven?

The Crucifixion and ressurection are central to Christianity. According to Islam, Jesus was not killed or crucified. However, it was made to appear that way. That means that God lied to people KNOWING that some would end up Christian because of it. Since Islam teaches that being Trinitarian is shirk, God lied knowing it would send people to hell.

God didn’t teach people the Trinity.

Because every Muslim site that I have been to ignores free will. They focus on God’s will, but never mans.

A friend of mine explained free will thus: It is possible for us to lift one foot, and take a step in any direction. But we cannot simultaneously walk in two different directions. So we have free will, but it’s limited. A person can choose to believe in God, or can choose not to. That’s a choice. It’s free will. Nobody is forcing that person to choose one way or the other. But just because a person has a choice, doesn’t mean God doesn’t know what that choice will be. We are all tested.

And the Muslims on here tend to be poor at discussing comparative theology. According to some, they are even heretical by Islam’s standards.

Indeed.

 

[empurpledsoul]

Here’s a question for you, since you say heaven is our “inheritance.” Does every person born** deserve** to go to heaven?

What do you think of perfect love, that which is not created out of human ego which believes that some are more worthy than others, that some are more perfect or valued than others?

Do you deserve this kind of love?

God holds us all accountable and we do not make it to ‘heaven’ where we can rest in eternal peace without facing our errors, our sins, our mistakes fully, without feeling what we have done to others, by virtue of having it given back to us as if it were our own self we had done it to.

Is that not perfect justice that is not dependent on flawed and fatally egoistic human judgements of our fellow human beings?

If you judge any to not be ‘deserving’ of love, forgiveness, mercy and grace, using your imperfect human ego to do so, you have only ultimately condemned yourself to the same judgement.

That was taught by Jesus, not by Muhammad, Perhaps this is why you missed it. You do not have the truth and light, you are being guided by shadow and dark.

 

[empurpledsoul]

God didn’t teach people the Trinity

Jesus taught the nature of his mission, his being, his relationship to God and the power given through Him and the Holy Spirit which would be given once he departed from the flesh. The Words are fully in the scripture. Men, attempting to frame what Jesus indeed did clearly teach, but without the word, “trinity” coined this word noting the 3 fold nature of Jesus, his relation to God almighty and the Holy Spirit. He did not say God was 3 or triune, but he did clarify how God created a bridge to His Love through a human being who was first human, then divine and then in spirit, holy, to assure that His Word did not rest on the minds of men, texts, written words or scholarly claims of intelligence. The Spirit of Truth is Jesus is God in the promising of continuing the deliverance of The Word as Jesus had done in the flesh on earth, after his mortal death and eternal resurrection, that no man or woman ever be led astray by false claims, false prophets, human beings with mental illness who have delusions, etc. We do not turn to human beings now, we turn to God knowing that Jesus provides the way, now as he did then, to knowing Gods Word, through the power given in the Holy Spirit. If you do not turn to God by Jesus Word and receive the Holy Spirit to affirm and guide you, you are left only to the mind of fallible men who are wrong, wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong…but you will not believe.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=332568

 

[jam070406]

Jesus taught the nature of his mission, his being, his relationship to God and the power given through Him and the Holy Spirit which would be given once he departed from the flesh. The Words are fully in the scripture. Men, attempting to frame what Jesus indeed did clearly teach, but without the word, “trinity” coined this word noting the 3 fold nature of Jesus, his relation to God almighty and the Holy Spirit. He did not say God was 3 or triune, but he did clarify how God created a bridge to His Love through a human being who was first human, then divine and then in spirit, holy, to assure that His Word did not rest on the minds of men, texts, written words or scholarly claims of intelligence. The Spirit of Truth is Jesus is God in the promising of continuing the deliverance of The Word as Jesus had done in the flesh on earth, after his mortal death and eternal resurrection, that no man or woman ever be led astray by false claims, false prophets, human beings with mental illness who have delusions, etc. We do not turn to human beings now, we turn to God knowing that Jesus provides the way, now as he did then, to knowing Gods Word, through the power given in the Holy Spirit. If you do not turn to God by Jesus Word and receive the Holy Spirit to affirm and guide you, you are left only to the mind of fallible men who are wrong, wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong…but you will not believe.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=332568

I don’t mean to shock you, but you… are a fallible man.

 

[Sister_Amy]

What do you think of perfect love, that which is not created out of human ego which believes that some are more worthy than others, that some are more perfect or valued than others?

Do you deserve this kind of love?

God holds us all accountable and we do not make it to ‘heaven’ where we can rest in eternal peace without facing our errors, our sins, our mistakes fully, without feeling what we have done to others, by virtue of having it given back to us as if it were our own self we had done it to.

Is that not perfect justice that is not dependent on flawed and fatally egoistic human judgements of our fellow human beings?

If you judge any to not be ‘deserving’ of love, forgiveness, mercy and grace, using your imperfect human ego to do so, you have only ultimately condemned yourself to the same judgement.

That was taught by Jesus, not by Muhammad, Perhaps this is why you missed it. You do not have the truth and light, you are being guided by shadow and dark.

Sorry, but (a) I’m not sure what you’re talking about in the first place, and (b) I can’t see how your post relates at all to the discussion at hand.