Muslim apologetics web site claiming that Nestorians and Jacobites were around in Jesus' time!

[fnr]

I posted several years ago how a supposedly-valid Hadith from Ibn Abbas, uncle of Muhammad, claimed that the reason Jesus’ followers didn’t appear to be Muslims is because the Nestorians and Jacobites (who were large fractions of the population in lands bordering Arabia in the 7th century) were the followers of Jesus that killed the Muslims following Jesus.

To me, the Hadith is a clear case of anachronism and proves the Hadith false – or Muhammad himself.

Now, a Muslim web site is unapologetic about defending the claim: islamicvirtues.com/tag/jacobites/

 

[ChineseCatholic]

I believe this is the relevant segment.

Ibn Abbas said, “When Allaah decided to raise Isa to Heaven, Isa went to his companions – and in the house there were twelve men from his disciples – while drops of water were dripping from his head. Isa said to them, “Some of you will disbelieve in me twelve times after having believed in me.” He then asked, “Who among you volunteers that he be made to resemble me and be killed instead of me; he will be with me in my place (in Paradise).” One of the youngest men present volunteered, but Isa commanded him to sit down. Isa repeated his statement and the young man again stood up and volunteered, and Isa again told him to sit down. Isa repeated the same statement and the young man volunteered. This time, Isa said, “Then it will be you.” The appearance of Isa was cast upon that young man, while Isa, peace be on him, was raised to heaven through an opening in the roof of the house. The Jews came looking for Isa and arrested the one that appeared as him, killing him by crucifixion. Some of them disbelieved in Isa twelve times, after they had believed in him.** They divided into three groups. One group said, “God was among us and then ascended to heaven”. These are the Jacobites. One group said, “The son of God was among us and then God raised him to Himself”. These are the Nestorians. One group said, “A servant of god and His messenger was among us and then God raised him to Himself”. These are the Muslims. Then the two unbelieving sects prevailed against the Muslims and killed them**. Islam remained eradicated until God sent Muhammad, may Allaah’s blessing and peace be upon him.

Imam Ibn Katheer adds: And this chain of narration is authentic (Saheeh) from Ibn Abbas.

(This narration can also be read in al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah (vol 2, page 85) of Imam Ibn Katheer, as well as in Fath al-Qadeer (vol 1, pg 800) of Imam ash-Shawkani.)

So we see that the Prophet (S) himself is telling us that the Nestorians and the Jacobites were present right after the death Prophet Isa, and they were the ones who killed off all the TRUE believers in Prophet Isa (the Muslims!). They did not come into existence hundreds of years later, as these kuffaar “historians” and “scholars” are telling us.

Personally my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, and all those who are not of the faith yet still adhere to modern methods of historical reconstruction…

…I’m not quite sure if there’s anymore that can be said at this point. It literally flies in the face of hundreds of years worth of data analysis regarding the Nestorian sect (of which I’m much more familiar with than the Jacobites)

Until shown otherwise, I have a hard time believing that this apologist viewpoint is also the viewpoint of the madhhab schools, the actual intellectual base of the Islamic faith. It feels like more something like Zakir Naik would attempt to push.

And I feel that’s where most attempts at interaction or discussion on CAF regarding Islam fails.

We always hear about an inflammatory apologist speaks about like say Hamza Tzortzis or Naik, in the same way I’m sure our own critics will point to a cadre of Christian apologists whose views either fallout of mainstream of scholarship (even if they might be popular amongst members of the laity).

I feel like that the more we decide to speak about these Charlatans (because that’s what they are - they aren’t Jurists or Theologians, just “preachers” or “speakers”), as opposed to doing the real work of engaging with say someone like Mufti Ismael Menk or the works of say **Muhammad Nasiruddin al-Albani **, considered by some to be the greatest Islamic scholar of the 20th century, then we do a disservice not only to our guests but to ourselves.

Or to put it bluntly in our own terms - who cares what some random preacher thinks when we can look to say Aquinas and his 21st Century scholastic heirs?

 

[Thorolfr]

To me, the Hadith is a clear case of anachronism and proves the Hadith false – or Muhammad himself.

Since most hadiths were recorded long after the time of Muhammad, many of them are undoubtedly false. But there are also probably some false or distorted stories about Jesus in the New Testament, although most conservative Christians would deny this.

 

[reader124]

Since most hadiths were recorded long after the time of Muhammad, many of them are undoubtedly false. But there are also probably some false or distorted stories about Jesus in the New Testament, although most conservative Christians would deny this.

Such as?