Muslim => Christian

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What factor(s) contributed to your journey from Islam to Christian? I just watched a National Geographic special on Mecca and Hajj. It was fascinating, as usual. I realize more about the peoples prior to Islam. I didn’t realize that pilgrimages preceded Mohamed. Very interesting.
 
What factor(s) contributed to your journey from Islam to Christian? I just watched a National Geographic special on Mecca and Hajj. It was fascinating, as usual. I realize more about the peoples prior to Islam. I didn’t realize that pilgrimages preceded Mohamed. Very interesting.
Abraham instituted the Pilgrimage along with Ishmael. The Arabs did it after him to this day . Even when the idols where introduced into Arabia … they still were put around the Kaaba as it is considered holy. When Islam came it restored the Arabs the faith that Abraham had.
 
Abraham instituted the Pilgrimage along with Ishmael. The Arabs did it after him to this day . Even when the idols where introduced into Arabia … they still were put around the Kaaba as it is considered holy. When Islam came it restored the Arabs the faith that Abraham had.
That’s very interesting and what I realized just the other day. So, then, since Abraham is our father as well, then why don’t Muslims allow Christians and Jews to go to Mecca? It’ seems uncivilized not to allow. It’s a pilgrimage.
 
Very interesting. I know about the prohibition agains non-Muslims entering Makkah and Maddenah. I studied some of this in my Geography classes. As far as the pagan origin of the Islamic pilgrimage, could it be like Christian holidays that were designed to overshaddow Pagan ritual/holiday celebrations? I’d like to hear a Muslim’s side of this for interest. One of my good friends is a non-practicing Muslim. He’s from Pakistan, but moved here when he was 15 years old.
There is a pagan origin for Islamic pilgrimage, read these links:
(E1) (E2) (A1)

Also it’s prohibited for non-Muslims to enter Makkah and Maddenah:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR-9g3MF5zkZGFDbRJea0v5FpK2RgW6v0vM1WLTPpTlsXuqUSmc0RXgLmhA

http://store2.up-00.com/May11/JPh16120.jpg
 
Abraham instituted the Pilgrimage along with Ishmael. The Arabs did it after him to this day . Even when the idols where introduced into Arabia … they still were put around the Kaaba as it is considered holy. When Islam came it restored the Arabs the faith that Abraham had.
Patently untrue. It was instituted by unknown Pagans at some point prior to the rise of Islam - likely when Makka became a large trading outpost. At the time of Muhammad, people of all sorts worshipped there, supposedly even Catholics, as the Islamic traditions tell of ikons of the Holy Virgin Mother of God and the Christ being enshrined there, along with 358 others. That’s probably as apocryphal as the 70 Jews who supposedly translated the Septuagint, but it’s Islamic evidence that the Hajj predates Islam (beyond the fact that the Islamic sources themselves speak of the believers being unwilling/receiving “revelation” to not perform the pilgrimage alongside unbelievers, and further “revelations” changing some of the more offensive characteristics of the Pagan ceremony) and didn’t have a Jewish clientele at any period, which it would have if it had been founded by Abraham.

I never could bring myself to believe such a ridiculously legendary story even as a Muslim (nor the poor exegesis/eisegesis that accompanies it, claiming “Marwah is Moriah and Ishaq is Ishmael and it all happened 700 miles away from where the rest of history places it”), no more than I can believe in a universal Deluge or the Mir’aj on the back of a winged camel named Buraq. At the time (most of my life) I had very atheistical tendencies, before I met St Thomas Aquinas.

No historical record admits the possibility that Abraham built the Kaaba, nor even entered within 100 miles of its location, except for the Koran, which is obviously (clay birds being breathed in to life, the description of the nativity, the incorporation of the Alexander romance) at least partially based on apocryphal and legendary sources.

Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World by Patricia Crone and Michael Cook and The Sectarian Milieu by John Wansbrough are excellent books treating the subject in great detail. Slaves on Horses: the Development of the Islamic Polity by Patricia Crone is as well.
 
Patently untrue. It was instituted by unknown Pagans at some point prior to the rise of Islam - likely when Makka became a large trading outpost. At the time of Muhammad, people of all sorts worshipped there, supposedly even Catholics, as the Islamic traditions tell of ikons of the Holy Virgin Mother of God and the Christ being enshrined there, along with 358 others. That’s probably as apocryphal as the 70 Jews who supposedly translated the Septuagint, but it’s Islamic evidence that the Hajj predates Islam (beyond the fact that the Islamic sources themselves speak of the believers being unwilling/receiving “revelation” to not perform the pilgrimage alongside unbelievers, and further “revelations” changing some of the more offensive characteristics of the Pagan ceremony) and didn’t have a Jewish clientele at any period, which it would have if it had been founded by Abraham.

I never could bring myself to believe such a ridiculously legendary story even as a Muslim (nor the poor exegesis/eisegesis that accompanies it, claiming “Marwah is Moriah and Ishaq is Ishmael and it all happened 700 miles away from where the rest of history places it”), no more than I can believe in a universal Deluge or the Mir’aj on the back of a winged camel named Buraq. At the time (most of my life) I had very atheistical tendencies, before I met St Thomas Aquinas.

No historical record admits the possibility that Abraham built the Kaaba, nor even entered within 100 miles of its location, except for the Koran, which is obviously (clay birds being breathed in to life, the description of the nativity, the incorporation of the Alexander romance) at least partially based on apocryphal and legendary sources.

Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World by Patricia Crone and Michael Cook and The Sectarian Milieu by John Wansbrough are excellent books treating the subject in great detail. Slaves on Horses: the Development of the Islamic Polity by Patricia Crone is as well.
The explanation that i gave above is the official Islamic teaching based on Quran and Sunnah . The comments you and SAM77 gave above are what Christians love to Think about Islam. Nobody have a time machine to go and look , but by your logic one could doubt the historical truth about the origins of your faith as well. Starting a debate about this is futile.
 
That’s very interesting and what I realized just the other day. So, then, since Abraham is our father as well, then why don’t Muslims allow Christians and Jews to go to Mecca? It’ seems uncivilized not to allow. It’s a pilgrimage.
Not really sure about the details of the religious ruling. In any case there inst anything there that is of any interest to Jews or Christians. Personally i have no problem if they arranged some tourist visits.
 
The explanation that i gave above is the official Islamic teaching based on Quran and Sunnah . The comments you and SAM77 gave above are what Christians love to Think about Islam. Nobody have a time machine to go and look , but by your logic one could doubt the historical truth about the origins of your faith as well. Starting a debate about this is futile.
But there are debates about the origin of my faith, and many non-Christians (and even some liberal Protestants) doubt the historicity of it, the miracles, the nature, the dating, etc. Hundreds of them, carried on in the open, in the full light of reason and available to the public. Muslims suppress such research. That is a key difference: the official Christian teachings of every denomination, Catholic or Protestant, are questioned, and it’s legal to do this, and not considered apostasy.

I was a Muslim for almost a decade. Whether I appeal to my own authority or not, I do know what Islam is about, and how it is practiced, at least in Egypt. I’m not a “Christian Orientalist” who is completely ignorant of “the East” as Islam loves to say of its critics: “You can’t understand Islam/the Koran unless you’re a Muslim/unless you understand classical Arabic”: it’s not a rebuttal, it’s a refusal, an attempt to step outside the bounds of inquiry and criticism. Any group that is long immune to criticism comes to no good, whether it is religion or government, Islam, the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, the old British Monarchy before the Reformation, or Communism.

Is it to say that I can not possibly understand Islam because I was once a Muslim but no longer am, so it follows that Allah has hardened my heart, closed my ears, blinded my eyes, and made me an irredeemable hypocrite and sinner immune to the truth?
 
I was asked to post a conversion story here, so I’ll copy from another thread about debating with evangelists. It’s not primarily focused on my conversion story per se, but contains the basic information. I can elaborate on it if so requested.

I have on several occasions, both as a Muslim and a Christian.

In the former case, my debate partners (more accurately, co-arguers) were Christians of the Protestant persuasion, and, to a man, ended up stomping away red-faced. I’ll tell you honestly that not one of the people had a decent apologetic: they were all fideists and, if the metaphor of cleanliness and Godliness holds, fideism is next to Satanism in my eye. Life and belief are about thought and conviction through reason, not through blind faith, which is idiocy. If someone can prove you wrong and you still believe, it’s blind faith.

All of them used the same, tired tactics: “see how Jesus has changed lives! see the Holy Spirit in action! it’s about faith! have a personal relationship with Jesus! enter in to a dialectical relationship with God!”: I didn’t care how Jesus has changed lives, I didn’t believe in the Holy Spirit; I never heard a real, live proponent with an apologetic of the type as, “this is how we know God exists; this is why the scriptures are reliable; this is the evidence for the resurrection; here are the prophecies; here is the textual evidence”, etc., which is the kind of evidence - especially of the philosophical and Thomistic varieties - that eventually brought me around and gave me conviction instead of going-through-the-motions.

Eventually one Protestant told me to “read the New Testament, and come back, and I’ll become a Muslim”, issued as a challenge - as if I couldn’t deal with it. It’s just a book. I took him up on the challenge to prove him wrong. I did read it with as open a mind as I could muster (“the book’s been corrupted and is obviously false, it has no power!”) but with Islamic and atheistical preconceptions. I had read the Old Testament in a Jewish translation (the NJPS) because I couldn’t stand the Christological interpretations of Christian Bibles. That day, I bought the cheapest Bible I could find (a plastic-covered text edition of the NRSV) and began reading at Matthew: if I remember, “This is the book of the generations of Jesus the Messiah, child of David, child of Abraham” - I was intrigued, given that Islam places so much emphasis on Abraham (more than anyone but Muhammad) and view David as a prophet who was given the Zabur (Psalms) as scripture.

Needless to say, he didn’t become a Muslim.

I never really believed in God, not even after that point, but I recognized the Jesus of the Gospels as something a human could never be, and, even if he was invented by the apostles, something a human could and would never dream up; they would write of a failed and noble king, much like Muhammad (except he was a successful king), not a person who preached values so disconsonant with our most basic instincts and beliefs. Because of the dissonance with human nature, it seemed impossible for a man to even have conceived such ideas, let alone have put them in the mouth of someone else, as everyone would have thought, “this character is obviously fictional”.

I read it. And I read it again. I read the Christian Old Testament, which, even in the poor NRSV translation, which mutes Christological prophecy and interpretation, and found myself more drawn to the opinion that it prefigured Jesus.

I read more about Christianity, and ended up reading the Summa Theologiae of St Thomas Aquinas, which was of ultimate importance in my conversion, and a few Papal encyclicals (namely, Fides et Ratio, which was of penultimate importance in my accepting the Catholic faith, given that it has an intellectual rigour not found elsewhere). I read a whole host of other apologetics books, Catholic and Protestant, from The New Evidence to Reasonable Faith and historical-critical commentaries to learn text criticism, variant readings, provenance, chains of transmission, etc. and found an intellectual openness and honesty completely absent from Islam; a dogmatics based on reason, instead of a reason based on dogmatics.

After Fides et Ratio and the Quinquae viae of Aquinas, I for the first time actually believed in a God.

Soon after, I reverted to my native faith, Eastern Orthodoxy, which I converted from as a young teenager due to a confluence of factors, with which he was none too pleased (being a “bible-believing evangelical”) but found much better than Mohammedanism (as do I; I use the word not as a slur but as a descriptor, since Muhammad thought it up in his imagination, it can have no truly objective reality).

The (unfinished: I’ve yet to be confirmed due to lack of transportation) journey from Orthodoxy to Catholicism is too long to fit in this post, and full of more theological technicalities.

As a Christian, I have debated Muslims, which always ends in being asked in a it’s-not-a-question-way, “You’re a paid operative of the Jews or Zionists, right?”, or “How much are they paying you?”. I’ve also debated with Protestants of an evangelical but more kindly-natured persuasion, and have yet to gain a convert to the Church, but have rebutted all arguments successfully, ending once in a pensive “I’ll have to get back to you on that” and once “The Devil is trying to snare us, the Whore of Babylon isn’t to be trusted” rhetoric.
 
Maybe a lesson or two can be drawn from the debates, at least.
  1. A rational apologetic based on both empirical evidence and philosophical proof is needed to convince a certain type of person, or at least pull him away from his previous tradition, even if he is only lukewarm in it, and give him intellectual warrant to believe.
  2. Fideism is kind of like a plague on Christianity, and is far too wide-spread. Belief shouldn’t end at, “it’s a matter of faith”. It must have warrant. This fideism has caused the average, slightly intellectual American to dismiss Christianity as an intellectually non-viable superstition, because he’s been raised in an environment of fideism, scientism and a mechanistic philosophy, which he realizes is incompatible with the Christian God. That leaves four classes of people:
    1. Idiots, who stick with whatever religion they were born with out of “blind faith”
    2. Quasi-intellectuals who realize enough to know the mechanistic philosophy they are immersed in is a defeater for theism, and become atheists or agnostics (this is really a sub-class of [1], as they discard their received religion while keeping their received philosophical worldview)
    3. Those who question both their religion and philosophy and conclude with Aristotelian metaphysics, and that God must exist if Aristotelian metaphysics is true: indeed, the only philosophical worldview under which theism is both defensible, incontrovertible and necessary is Realism, or Essentialism, or Real Essentialism (Aristotelian realism, etc.); these will end up Catholic, or Orthodox
    4. Those who view truth as relational, subjective, dialectical, etc. and can convince themselves of anything (I was one of these for a long time).
  3. Whichever side of the debate I was on, I “won”, if that word has meaning; I outlasted and outargued my opponent, and eventually got to a point where no rebuttals were left; this says that the outcome of a debate has less to do with objective truth than the skill of the rhetorician.
 
But there are debates about the origin of my faith, and many non-Christians (and even some liberal Protestants) doubt the historicity of it, the miracles, the nature, the dating, etc. Hundreds of them, carried on in the open, in the full light of reason and available to the public. Muslims suppress such research. That is a key difference: the official Christian teachings of every denomination, Catholic or Protestant, are questioned, and it’s legal to do this, and not considered apostasy.

I was a Muslim for almost a decade. Whether I appeal to my own authority or not, I do know what Islam is about, and how it is practiced, at least in Egypt. I’m not a “Christian Orientalist” who is completely ignorant of “the East” as Islam loves to say of its critics: “You can’t understand Islam/the Koran unless you’re a Muslim/unless you understand classical Arabic”: it’s not a rebuttal, it’s a refusal, an attempt to step outside the bounds of inquiry and criticism. Any group that is long immune to criticism comes to no good, whether it is religion or government, Islam, the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, the old British Monarchy before the Reformation, or Communism.

Is it to say that I can not possibly understand Islam because I was once a Muslim but no longer am, so it follows that Allah has hardened my heart, closed my ears, blinded my eyes, and made me an irredeemable hypocrite and sinner immune to the truth?
You seem to be a cultured guy. But bear with me …

People do research when they ‘‘feel’’ they need research. You , probably without knowing, try to impose on Muslims the necessity of rethinking and re assessing the origins of their faith.

For many of them… they have one question… why? why would they need to do so if they are satisfied with it . There is a difference if you come with a solid proof to the opposite of what Islam teaches about its history. But to ask people to disbelief just for the sake of debate is futile. People debate because they believe they need to.

Opinions about the Origins of Islam is not a taboo. And in this day and age , you really can’t prohibit information from people. If you are in Egypt, log on the net and read whatever you want to read. Its all on the net .

The difference between Islam and Christianity is that the doubts or differences on the Origins of the faith stems from two different reasons.

In Christianity the difference stems from the historical facts of the faith itself. There are 4 writers of the gospel . There are debates on the very nature of God between two equally strong factions. There has not been a method of authentication of the scripture. The difference in understanding of jews vs Christians to the OT , The diversity of the early doctrines of Christianity .Basically… the differences and the debates around the origin of Christianity is attributed to … real diversity and uncertainty on the origins of Christianity.

As for Islam, due to the authentication of the faith… the very early words of the faith were solidly documented early on. Islam had early on a very clear shape , form and creed . This made the schizm within Islam , something that could be easily resolved by resorting back to The solid foundation of the faith. Look at shia and sunna schizm. It didnt even start as a religious one, If it werent for politics there wouldnt have been this schizm. Still sunni Islam is 85% of the world body of Muslims because its clearly tracable to the Quran and solid authenticated hadeeth.

The certainity and the satisfaction most muslims feel about their faith, left the few who didn’t share such certainity feeling intimidated and alone. Thus the feeling of ‘’ no dissent allowed’’ in fact…stems ina big deal from the dissenters feeling of loneliness.

The diversity of opinions on Christianity is a product of the very Origins of Christianity itself. While Islam, was able to draw the line early on between what is islam and what clearly isnt. That left the people who tried to invent stuff left to feel outsiders.

Let me give you an example… couple of years ago researchers from Germany found some Quranic manuscripts in yemen that were very old. These manuscripts were papers that had the Quran written on them. At least part of it. They found some differences between this manuscript and the Quran we have today ,

whats the result ? Nothing… because simply in Islam the Quran was preserved by consensus . The debate these manuscripts started was well and alive. But it didnt shake any body … because Islam itself had its own internal controls that presevred the Quran early on.

what i am trying to say is that the debate exists … but it isn’t popular , because muslims didnät see any strong evidence to the opposite of what Islam teaches. So why waste time with debating for the sake of debate?

At the end of the day it boils down to what people feel comfortable with.

The official narrative of Islam is that Abraham visited Ishmael in Arabia and built together the Kaba.If there isn’t strong historical ( not missionary) proof to the contrary then the narrative will stay.

Hope you understand what i mean .

Best regards
 
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