Muslim Extremist: The Numbers

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hamba2han’s remark is looking for trouble. its insinuating more hostility to islam. its like saying “bring it on. whatever you do, you are losing already”
 
Grace_Seeker said:
It just means that they are NOT genuine representatives of any actual faith.
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There is a lot of evidence to suggest that the extremists are the real Muslims. If they are not than the real Muslims need to do something about them.

I try to educate people about what Catholics really believe, but peaceful Muslims seem to simply blame the media and take no action to reclaim their faith. Until they do I can not take their offers of peace seriously.

There have been a few Muslims on this forum that I believe to be good people, but sadly I have come to think that is in spite of Islam.

Have we had a single Muslim post on this thread to say “You are right, it is a problem we need to confront.”? Nope, just hamba trying to change the subject. That makes me think I have, sadly, hit very close to home.
 
George_Waters said:
There is a lot of evidence to suggest that the extremists are the real Muslims. If they are not than the real Muslims need to do something about them.
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Well, we will have to disagree over that evaluation. I am still of the opinion that, despite what I see as a recent (i.e. last 40 years) radicalization of Isalm, that Muslims are predominately interested in living in harmony with their neighbors and peacably trying to convert the world. That hasn’t been all of Islam’s history, but it hasn’t been all of Christian history either. That doesn’t make either religion war mongers just because there has been some war mongering done in its name.

What I was glad to see in your post was that you did care to draw a distinction between Muslims and Muslim extremeists and did not unfairly paint all Muslims with the same brush.

As far as pointing you to Muslims who are doing something about the radicals, I can and will gladly do that if you have the patience to wait till Monday.
Surprise: Just happened to glance down to one of the other threads mentioned at the bottom of this page and it directed me to sptimes.com/2006/09/20/news_pf/Tampabay/Muslim_groups_reach_o.shtml. See, they aren’t hidden, but I am convinced we take more notice of the bad news than the good news that people do. I’ll blame that on the media’s “If it bleeds, it leads” mentality, not any predisposition on your part.

And as I said there are many more examples of this, but I’m going to have to wait till Monday to get to them.
 
Grace_Seeker said:
Well, we will have to disagree over that evaluation. I am still of the opinion that, despite what I see as a recent (i.e. last 40 years) radicalization of Isalm, that Muslims are predominately interested in living in harmony with their neighbors and peacably trying to convert the world. That hasn’t been all of Islam’s history, but it hasn’t been all of Christian history either. That doesn’t make either religion war mongers just because there has been some war mongering done in its name.

What I was glad to see in your post was that you did care to draw a distinction between Muslims and Muslim extremeists and did not unfairly paint all Muslims with the same brush.

As far as pointing you to Muslims who are doing something about the radicals, I can and will gladly do that if you have the patience to wait till Monday.
Surprise: Just happened to glance down to one of the other threads mentioned at the bottom of this page and it directed me to sptimes.com/2006/09/20/news_pf/Tampabay/Muslim_groups_reach_o.shtml. See, they aren’t hidden, but I am convinced we take more notice of the bad news than the good news that people do. I’ll blame that on the media’s “If it bleeds, it leads” mentality, not any predisposition on your part.

And as I said there are many more examples of this, but I’m going to have to wait till Monday to get to them.
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Thanks for the praise though I don’t know if I truly deserve it.

I think the majority of humans want to live in peace. What I am not convinced of is that Islam wants any sort of peace other than the “peace” that would come from absolute domination. We’ll agree to disagree for now.

I know there are Muslims who speak out against this sort of thing all the time, but is it because they are Muslim or simply because they are good people? Don’t knock yourself out on finding sources unless you really want to. I think all of us know you are right and appreciate your efforts.

It is interesting to note that our Muslim friends on this forum refuse to acknowledge the problem and reach out to us in an effort to re-claim their true faith. When our moderate friends won’t publicly denounce extremists and simply face the facts of terrorism (like Muslims make up 20% of the world population but Muslim extremists commit something like 95% of all terrorist attacks) it forces me to wonder how moderate they really are. Simply tired of trying to convince us close-minded Westerners? That is a colossal excuse at best and deception at worst.

Muslims have a real problem on their hands, yet they refuse to see the inherent problems with how Islam is interpreted by Muslims.

I am sure the next response from a Muslim on this thread (if there is one) will be to bring up the problems with Christianity, Christians, the Bible, etc., etc… Please prove me wrong.
 
iamrefreshed said:
“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.”

SIR WINSTON CHURCHILL
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Churchill also wrote: “Indeed it is evident that Christianity, however degraded and distorted by cruelty and intolerance, must always exert a modifying influence on men’s passions, and protect them from the more violent forms of fanatical fever, as we are protected from smallpox by vaccination. But the Mahommedan religion increases, instead of lessening, the fury of intolerance. It was originally propagated by the sword, and ever since, its votaries have been subject, above the people of all other creeds, to this form of madness.”

Vickie
 
George_Waters said:
Gandhi was killed in 1948 (by an extremist no less). Do you think he would say the same about Islam if he was alive today?
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Just for the sake of clarity (not argument), Gandhi was killed by a Hindu fundamentalist extremist who thought Gandhi was too friendly with Islam. (The Pakistan partiion and all that).
 
George_Waters said:
In another thread I pointed out some numbers in regards to Islamic terror attacks and Muslim’s religious mandate to convert, subjugate or kill all non-believers. That got me thinking.

As of July 2007 the population of the world was 6,602,224,175 of which 20% are Muslim (And according to Muslims that number is growing in leaps and bounds). Worldwide that is 1,320,444,835 Muslims. Now if we say ¼ of 1% of all Muslims today are extremist (I just went with what I thought a very small minority would be, more on this later.) than we have 33,011,121 murders running amok wanting to kill everyone who does not believe precisely what they do (As a point of reference: according to the 2000 US Census the population of the state of California was 33,871,648). If Muslim extremist make up a very small minority of Muslims or not, 33,011,121 Muslim extremist is a very big problem for humanity as a whole.

Do they make up a small minority? According to Muslim-American activist Kamal Nawash: “We have to come out and admit that we have a problem with extremism… it’s a movement that’s been growing for twenty years throughout the entire Muslim world.” Nawash further claimed that many as fifty percent of Muslims around the world support the goals of the extremists.

50%? That’s 660,222,418 Muslim extremist worldwide! The population of the United States is only 303,144,192. Would so many people downplay this Islamic global threat if all of North America bagan to call for the deaths of the rest of the world?

Something to think about…
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As Muslim and good practicing one, I think the concept of extremism is quite old, as matter of fact it’s very old and it has not started with Osama Ben laden or Al Qaidah who I consider as politically motivated group and do not offer much in terms faith.

Let me point out 3 things.

1- God warn us in the Quran of such people.
2- Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) has won us of them.
3- Al Ghulow fi Deen is an issue with all Muslims and that is why God has instructed us to be moderate.

Now, let me address couple points in your thread, first, I strongly suggest to you that you use someone better then Ayan Hirsi Ali as reference and I’m sure you don’t know much about her but accept what heard and read about what she has to say.

Finally, let me ask you, do have any Muslim friends, if so ask them and discuss with them what they think, and read with them the Quran and enquiry from them on each and every aspect that you think is scary or wrong in the Quran. I’m sure you will be pleasantly surprised.
As for the numbers you have used, well, personally I don’t think much of them, most of the problems we have on earth today has more to do with human wickedness and evils then God or his his laws.
Case in point, Don’t KKK members believe in Jesus…?
 
Wolseley said:
I have been saying for years that this century will see a titanic clash of civilizations—Islam vs. Everybody Else, but I am viewed as an idiot by all those fine folks out there who want to believe that “Islam is a peaceful religion which means us no harm, now go away so we can relax and go back to watching Desperate Housewives.”

(shrug)

All you can do is put up the sign reading that the bridge is out. You can’t force them to stop driving towards it.

The world in the year 2100 is going to look a lot different than it did in the year 2000. The major question will be if the West still exists or not; but between miltant threats from without and our own moral filth and hedonistic corruption from within, I don’t hold out a lot of hope.
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Allow me to disagree with you and point out your views are more outright political rhetoric or should say repectfully boloneis…!

Let’s go back in history (very recent history) and please put all the politics aside,

1900’s… what was the biggest worries…?
1950’s…?
2000…before just before 9/11?
 
AbeOman said:
As Muslim and good practicing one, I think the concept of extremism is quite old, as matter of fact it’s very old and it has not started with Osama Ben laden or Al Qaidah who I consider as politically motivated group and do not offer much in terms faith.

Let me point out 3 things.

1- God warn us in the Quran of such people.
2- Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) has won us of them.
3- Al Ghulow fi Deen is an issue with all Muslims and that is why God has instructed us to be moderate.

Now, let me address couple points in your thread, first, I strongly suggest to you that you use someone better then Ayan Hirsi Ali as reference and I’m sure you don’t know much about her but accept what heard and read about what she has to say.

Finally, let me ask you, do have any Muslim friends, if so ask them and discuss with them what they think, and read with them the Quran and enquiry from them on each and every aspect that you think is scary or wrong in the Quran. I’m sure you will be pleasantly surprised.
As for the numbers you have used, well, personally I don’t think much of them, most of the problems we have on earth today has more to do with human wickedness and evils then God or his his laws.
Case in point, Don’t KKK members believe in Jesus…?
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Yes, extremism is very old. While Al Qaidah is most certainly politically motivated they are also Muslims who use the Quran to support their terrorist activity. Some claim extremists are not true Muslims, but they claim they are and continuing killing in the name of Islam. That is a problem for Islam, though Muslims don’t seem to acknowledge this.

I am pleased Muslims have been warned about extremist. Too bad the warnings went unheeded and have allowed the problem to get so far out of hand.

I am sorry, who is this Ayan Hirsi Ali that I supposedly used as a reference? I have never heard of her.

I can not say I currently have any Muslim friends. The last friend I had who was Muslim renounced Islam and became a Christian. Yes, I was pleasantly surprised. I have spoken to a friend of a friend who is a very good person, but rejects much of Islam and fears the Jihadist as much as anyone.

You may not personally think much of my numbers, but the hundreds, or sometimes thousands, of families effected everyday by Muslim extremists most certainly do.

I appreciate your polite and honest response AbeOman, however I can not help but note even you did not acknowledge this obvious problem within Islam which affects not only Muslims, but everyone and did not address why Islam has a disproportionately larger number of extremists.

I agree with you that it is not God and his laws that are causing the problem, but man (sometimes even just one man) trying to play God and acting in the name of God.

Yes. Christians have problems with extremists too. However, the issue of this thread is the global threat of Muslim extremists and the remarkably large number of extremists in Islam.
 
Verisimilitude said:
Ok, that made me laugh. Are the Muslims kicking gays out of the closet now or joining them in there? Strange bed-fellows indeed.

Aha…that is humor, thanks, Muslims are folks like me and you and anybody else and I honestly don’t any Muslim from mars and we do have our share of wickedness and sinners of all types.

but what does that has to do with the faith…? as the saying goes you can bring horse to the water but you won’t make it drink.

Who shows anything to Moslems? Mohamed and the Quran. There you will find the sword and permission to use it- if you but know.

This is true, but using it has limitations…read it in the Quran and Sunna.
Do Al Qaeda or there likes care…I don’t think so… do i billion of Muslims most properly… and please don’t take my word for it, researched from unbiased sources and history books.

A side question for you: If two lesbians dressed in revealing clothing were to walk into a mosque during Friday prayers- openly, in the mens section- not where you make women hide behind a curtain…if they walked in and started praying with you but in a mocking way…what would your/other Muslims reaction be? Let’s say they did it in a New York mosque. What if it were in a Cairo mosque?
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Interesting…very interesting anology. personally, I always want to know more about lesbians so perhaps i would invite them over to discuss with them what is they find so attractive and satisfying in being a lesbian.

On serious note, there so much cultural stuff in Islam today and surely one of them is the curtain/barrier that divides mosques.
the good news is that this is not wide spread as you may believe, definitely it’s a big in Saudi Arabia…so that is one Islamic act for you.
 
hamba2han said:
Mahatma Gandhi, speaking on the character of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), says in (Young India):

"scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, "
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Note the regard for ONLY muslims. perhaps Ghandi was not aware of the 65 million hindus that were mudered by muslim rulers.
 
George_Waters said:
Yes, extremism is very old. While Al Qaidah is most certainly politically motivated they are also Muslims who use the Quran to support their terrorist activity. Some claim extremists are not true Muslims, but they claim they are and continuing killing in the name of Islam. That is a problem for Islam, though Muslims don’t seem to acknowledge this.

Any Muslim who kills an innocent any human no reason (like self defence) is not a Muslim in the book. So I would have a real hard time accepting anyone like that.

I am pleased Muslims have been warned about extremist. Too bad the warnings went unheeded and have allowed the problem to get so far out of hand.

I can see that you don’t much about history of Islam but we had lot more worse extremism long ago, believe me this around it has lot more to do with politics, injustices and land then it has to do with Islam.

I am sorry, who is this Ayan Hirsi Ali that I supposedly used as a reference? I have never heard of her.

I apologize, it was not you and I’m glad you don’t her and you missing much.

I can not say I currently have any Muslim friends. The last friend I had who was Muslim renounced Islam and became a Christian. Yes, I was pleasantly surprised. I have spoken to a friend of a friend who is a very good person, but rejects much of Islam and fears the Jihadist as much as anyone.

**He has the right to choose his own faith and way of life…and tell him so, who is the judge but God almighty, just telling never to pose a physical threat to Islam or Muslims. **

You may not personally think much of my numbers, but the hundreds, or sometimes thousands, of families effected everyday by Muslim extremists most certainly do.

You are 100% right, also I live close to them then you do so wait and see, Muslims everywhere are fed up with them and are doing lots but you will not hear it or see it on FoxNews. that I can guarantee you.

I appreciate your polite and honest response AbeOman, however I can not help but note even you did not acknowledge this obvious problem within Islam which affects not only Muslims, but everyone and did not address why Islam has a disproportionately larger number of extremists.

Thank you for your kindness, but you are mistaken, the problem is not with Islam but some Muslims, I’m a muslim and I would not believe if Islam was cruel, violent and barbaric religion, Praise to god alone he has given me brains to know better and to reason and use logic, as matter of faith in the Quran God is urging anyone to reason and use logic.

I agree with you that it is not God and his laws that are causing the problem, but man (sometimes even just one man) trying to play God and acting in the name of God.

Well there you have it my friend, it’s us human who do evil purposeful to satisfy our own ends, otherwise why all the pains, wars and troubles on this earth.

Yes. Christians have problems with extremists too. However, the issue of this thread is the global threat of Muslim extremists and the remarkably large number of extremists in Islam.
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**In my humble opinion, we have more menace and dangerous threats in this world to day then few extremist Muslims to will eventually run out of place to make their beds, consider all the wicked and evil things that are going around the world, does that please our God almighty, will he replace us with better humans…take a deeper look around us and see the amount of injustice taking every where and place…!

My friend, We are living in the age of Sodom and Gomorrah …a terrible and painful end awaits us unless we change our ways. all of us…!

We have to start from somewhere…!**
 
thedavidwilson said:
Note the regard for ONLY muslims. perhaps Ghandi was not aware of the 65 million hindus that were mudered by muslim rulers.
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**I’m not doubting your sincerity but what is your proof or you making that up…?

Thanks**
 
thedavidwilson said:
The “peaceful” spread of islam through afghanistan, pakistan and India:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus

BTW: The name of the great mountain chain, Hindu Kush, means Hindu Slaughter. I think this is a great and telling monument to the impact of islam on the world.
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Wikipedia…? is that it…!

have a suggestion, why not go travel to india and study this in lenght, or better yet visit your local liberary and just make sure you are not reading from some anti-islam neocon.

Thanks for the effort though, that tells me you were not dubious in your post, just the historical facts are not so correct.

And let me agree with you on thing and that is, yes during the “Futoohaat” Islam did spread by the sword and…something else far much better and much less bloodier and sinister than war, I leave you to find that our for your own.

Thanks once again,
 
AbeOman said:
Wikipedia…? is that it…!

have a suggestion, why not go travel to india and study this in lenght, or better yet visit your local liberary and just make sure you are not reading from some anti-islam neocon.

Thanks for the effort though, that tells me you were not dubious in your post, just the historical facts are not so correct.

And let me agree with you on thing and that is, yes during the “Futoohaat” Islam did spread by the sword and…something else far much better and much less bloodier and sinister than war, I leave you to find that our for your own.

Thanks once again,
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Did you even read it? The article is primarily quotes from other sources. Check the sources. I know islam is against seeking the truth but it should be OK for you to read this article and the quotes from other sources. God bless.
 
AbeOman said:
Wikipedia…? is that it…!

have a suggestion, why not go travel to india and study this in lenght, or better yet visit your local liberary and just make sure you are not reading from some anti-islam neocon.

Thanks for the effort though, that tells me you were not dubious in your post, just the historical facts are not so correct.

And let me agree with you on thing and that is, yes during the “Futoohaat” Islam did spread by the sword and…something else far much better and much less bloodier and sinister than war, I leave you to find that our for your own.

Thanks once again,
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Once you read the article point out where the quoted sources are lying about the historical facts.

Also I don’t get your remark about the violent spread of islam being better than war…the spread of islam was war, multiple wars, which were very bloddy and vicious. Hey, you might consider another option to be the peaceful spread of islam that would not require killing people, but that would be counter to what the koran and hadith teach.
 
thedavidwilson said:
Once you read the article point out where the quoted sources are lying about the historical facts.

Also I don’t get your remark about the violent spread of Islam being better than war…the spread of Islam was war, multiple wars, which were very bloody and vicious. Hey, you might consider another option to be the peaceful spread of Islam that would not require killing people, but that would be counter to what the koran and hadith teach.
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Your sentiments against Islam are quite strong and that is your progrative, moreover, I read the sources and most definitely some of them are tainted or least unbiased or fair.

As for my comment, Islam was not only spread through wars alone, yes as I have indicated and agreed to there were wars but one needs to understand the nature of these wars.

Equally important, no religion was spread without shedding lots of blood beign innocent or otherwise.

We are at opposites on this and like a gentleman let’s agree to disagree, though I would still do more research on the subject whenever time allows to do so.
by the end, you will learn more and perhaps enlighten others too including me.

Thanks for your time.
 
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