Muslim friends... We will NOT convert...

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—Quote (Originally by MelanieAnne)—
Nor have I EVER seen any evidence in the media that ANY muslim group condemns such violence
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There are fanatics in all ideologies and religions. Muslims have them Christians [sadly] have them too :o

But I have witnessed some very holy spiritual prayerful dedicated peaceful Muslims. So much so that I stand in awe of Islam, comparing their spirituality with my own and have to confess I fall terribly short.
 
We know there are violent elements within Islam, who are doing a lot of damage to Christians.

But we must not succomb to the evil temptation of implying that they represent Islam as a whole.

There are some contributors on this forum who I have observed that even if Islam were so submit to Christianity, they would still not be happy and continue to persecute Islam :confused:

Far better we stand shoulder to shoulder with peaceful Muslims in taking on the worlds evils abortion, athiestic communism, devil worship.

We have far more important things to do than go around picking fights with Muslims. Does Islam oppose abortion? Then far better use of our time to engage and see what we have in common rather than how we differ 🙂
 
stephanut said:
kujo, you’re just letting the media influence you. just because you see a couple of news clips of people dancing in the streets you think that ALL muslims are like that?
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I know there are a few crying out… a scant few. One on the Lars Larsen radio show, another couple on the Laura Ingram radio program, three that I’ve heard on Dennis Prager, even one on the Mark Levin show. at least two have been on the Michael Savage Show…

But, like Paarsurrey, they dismiss the passages as not understood to be pro-violence out of hand, as it they are not able to be taken as a call to jyhad.

Paarsurrey: I observe that Your sect’s pacifism makes your sect the relative extreme viewpoint, as Zooey correctly interpreted. Most of the muslims I’ve met, and all that I’ve asked, express a tacit support for violent jyhad, a jyhad of war not internal struggle. The large numbers of Muslim leaders, both civil and religious, who call for supporting violent jyhad is large, and vocal. Pacifist leaders seem non-extant, and only academics and non-leaders are calling out publically against the Jyhad.

In my readings of the Qu’ran, I was struck by how Mohammad encouraged violence once it became clear the Jews and Christians would not submit.

Not being able to read nor speak arabic, I had to trust the translators… part of why I’ve read four different translations. But it always reads quit alike, and quite prone to anti-christian bias and isolation, if not open hate, and provides for a lack of choice by making all but one choice a really ugly situation.
 
coral said:
I posted this link earlier in the thread.

islam-democracy.org/terrorism_statement.asp

You must have missed it.

Now you have evidence from the media of Muslim groups condemning violence. Please reassess your conclusions in the light of this.
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I didn’t miss anything. Sorry, a posting in some obscure publication doesn’t “do it” for me. What I am looking for, and have yet to see after YEARS of waiting, is widespread condemnation of violence in the name of Allah. This is not just about 9/11, but everywhere and about all kinds of violence. For example, as long as violence in Israel is considered a valid vehicle for the redress of grievances, then Islam is guilty of violence and is NOT the “religion of peace”. END OF STORY.

I used to give Islam a bit more ground, but no more. In the nearly 6 years we have lived since 9/11, I’ve never seen a public outcry from ANY Islamic group condemning violence. (And by this, I mean a big enough outcry that it made the “mainstream media” not some parsed Islamic publiction, PLEASE!!) From this lack of condemnation of violence, I can only conclude that the vast majority of Muslims actually SUPPORT violence. If they do not, they need to make that plain. So far they have NOT.

If the vast majority of Muslims condemn the violence that is so prevalent today, they need to make a public proclamation. Otherwise, it is only natural fo newsr their neighbors to draw their own conclusions. Don’t quote me obscure references, quote me ABC news or something similar, otherwise do not bother, because the bulk of the US will not have seen it. Don’t be silly.

OH, and back on topic, I will NOT convert, but I continue to invite all Muslims to renounce their heresy and come home to the True Church founded by Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
 
Sixtus said:
We know there are violent elements within Islam, who are doing a lot of damage to Christians.
But we must not succomb to the evil temptation of implying that they represent Islam as a whole.
There are some contributors on this forum who I have observed that even if Islam were so submit to Christianity, they would still not be happy and continue to persecute Islam :confused:
Far better we stand shoulder to shoulder with peaceful Muslims in taking on the worlds evils abortion, athiestic communism, devil worship.
We have far more important things to do than go around picking fights with Muslims. Does Islam oppose abortion? Then far better use of our time to engage and see what we have in common rather than how we differ 🙂
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Hi
I agree with you.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
 
am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
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You are a good man Ahmadi. God/Allah is with you 👍
 
MelanieAnne said:
My experience is that there is no evidence that anyone condemns it. Perhaps you believe the violence is also justified? What is your reason for supporting terrorism against innocents?
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since when did I ever say I support terrorism? millions of innocents have died around the world without america speaking out against it. then 9/11 comes and boom, it’s as if muslims hate america. i don’t want to venture into political territory, but that’s what is is - politics. it’s got nothing to do with religion, but i’m very sorry that our religions have ended up being entangled in this mess.
 
redmars3000 said:
Have any of your friends unequivocally denounced 9/11 without having to mention ‘American foriegn policy’ as a source for the hijacker’s cause? You have to be specific. What exactly do your muslim friends denounce in their own words, not what u interpret them to mean.
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for one thing america’s foreign policy affects a lot of people around the world in bad ways, in addition to good ways. and may i just remind you that the people who died in the 9/11 attacks were a mix of religions and nationalities, and bush used the word “crusade” in his early speeches. see how deeply ingrained this whole thing is?

there is nothing to denounce, just as i would if some christian guy opens fire on a bunch of people, a majority of whom are muslims. my friends agree violence is not justified, what more do you want them to say? what would you say if you were them?
 
I really don’t understand your logic at all Melanie; how does Muslim groups condemning terrorism being rarely mentioned in mainstream media negate the fact that they *do *condemn it? That doesn’t make any sense at all. So we should act like all this…

Muslim Americans Condemn Attacks Read through it all.
U.S. MUSLIM RELIGIOUS COUNCIL ISSUES FATWA AGAINST TERRORISM See the huge list of **hundreds **of Muslim organisations and scholars endorsing this?
A Statement by the International Association for Muslim Scholars (IAMS), The Islamic View on Hostage Taking
CAIR pamphlet On 9/11.
The Grand Sheikh of Al-Azhar (who’s the closest thing to a Muslim central authority there is)

(and I could give you literally hundreds of links of stuff like this for you) never happened because you never saw it on the TV? I think you’re independent enough to know that there are other ways to learn about the world than being spoon-fed all information by ABC news.
 
Melanie,

Muslims have condemned terrorism and violence, you’ve seen that and Kadaveri has provided more links for you. And there’s plenty more where that came from. I don’t understand why you are holding on to the idea that it hasn’t happened seemingly on the basis that it didn’t get onto your mainstream news. Muslims condemning terrorism didn’t get on the news, but the fact is, it happened. The next question I guess is, why has the mainstream news failed to provide you with all sides of the story? Isn’t it an important thing to know, that so many Muslim groups speak out against terrorism? I feel you have been let down by the media, and sadly probably many other people have been too.
 
Melanie posted:
Isn’t it an important thing to know, that so many Muslim groups speak out against terrorism? I feel you have been let down by the media, and sadly probably many other people have been too.
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Sadly the media is not interested in the truth but spreading popular untruths to support an eager readership to buy the news. That is my experience from Northern Ireland. Why should it be any different with Islam?

We must not succomb to the evils of this sort of propaganda but rise above it. They [the media] have an excuse, as peacemakers of Christ, we do not! 🙂
 
hamba2han said:
For all here who wish to pray for my soul, I humbly request that you do it in the correct “Judeo-Christian” way as followed by none other than Jesus (pbuh) himself.

In a book entitled, “To Pray as a Jew”, a lengthy explanation is given of the Prayers as done by the ancient Jews and a few of the contemporary Jews. In this book the author put diagrams showing the movement and positions during the prayer and one quickly realizes the similarity of the prayers of the Jews then and the Salat as practiced by the Muslims.

http://www.submission.org/jews-1.jpghttp://www.submission.org/jews-2.jpg

In his comment about these positions the author wrote : “In most contemporary congregations very few people keep to the tradition of falling prostrate. Sometimes it is only the Prayer leader and the rabbi who does so. In more traditional congregations, however, some worshipers, men and women, will join the Prayer Leader and rabbi in the act of prostrating themselves. In Israeli synagogues, the practice is more widespread than in synagogues elsewhere. Since this is a position that we are unaccustomed to, one who has never done this before might very well demur. But once accomplished, the experience provides such a spiritual uplift that one looks forward to repeating it. Those willing to try this ancient ritual form on the rare occasions that call for it might welcome the following diagrams of the correct procedure”

It is also interesting to learn from this book that the prayers of the Jews involve wash before the prayers, (like Wuduu or ablution for Muslims), and the call for Prayers (like the Azan for the Muslims).
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You do have a point. All that is good in Islam originally belonged to Judaism and Christianity. Sadly, many of us have forgotten and no longer prostrate. But I will never forsake Christ my God.

CDL
 
Peace Upon those who follow the True guidance,
  1. Say (O Muslims), “We believe in Allâh and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ’il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), Ya’qûb (Jacob), and to the twelve sons and that which has been given to Mûsa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islâm).”
^This is what we(Ummati Muhammad pbuh=Community/Followers of Muhammad pbuh)believe.

If you do not convert to Islam and you die in state of Kufr(disbelieve)this is only a great loss to your own soul.
Hadith - Saheeh Muslim, vol. 1, no. 284
“By Him (Allah) in Whose Hand Muhammad’s soul is, there is none from amongst the Jews and the Christians (of these present nations) who hears about me and then dies without believing in the Message with which I have been sent (i.e. tawheed), but he will be from the dwellers of the (Hell) Fire.”

May Allah guide you to Islam.Amin

Peace
 
The coming of the Son of Man,

Mathew (24.29-31) "Soon after the trouble of those days, the sun will grow dark, the moon will no longer shine, the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of space will be driven from their courses. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky; and all the peoples of this world will weep as they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. The great trumpet will sound, and he will send out his angels to the four corners of the earth, and they will gather his chosen people from one end of the world to the other.

So i ask my muslim friends to repent of your ways and ask for forgiveness for when the time comes it will be too late, so convert and the truth will set you free.
 
stephanut said:
for one thing america’s foreign policy affects a lot of people around the world in bad ways, in addition to good ways. and may i just remind you that the people who died in the 9/11 attacks were a mix of religions and nationalities, and bush used the word “crusade” in his early speeches. see how deeply ingrained this whole thing is?

there is nothing to denounce, just as i would if some christian guy opens fire on a bunch of people, a majority of whom are muslims. my friends agree violence is not justified, what more do you want them to say? what would you say if you were them?
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This is crazy. People can blame foreign policy all they want but it is extremely hard to prove that this the true reason behind terrorism and not a scapegoat. Also, by claiming that our foreign policy is to blame is saying that the attackers dont have a choice with what they do with their lives because America’s actions, harmful or not, dictate what everyone must do.

Your hypothetical situation about the christian shooting muslims is the exact same thing. If a christian shot muslims, all I have to say is that he was wrong, murdering is wrong. I dont care if he had reasons that he thought were justified (maybe some muslims did something to hurt him), I’m sure alot of murders have a similar self-justification in their heads when they commit the act. To bring up so many excuses for murder sounds like the same mindset that the murderer had, “I know its bad, but I have had it worse, see the reason why I wanted to murder, I am the real victim.” This completely opposes the belief that murder is ALWAYS wrong, no matter what the situation. If the Christian murdered the Muslim, I am not about to start saying “but look, you put him in the situation, you hurt him somehow, look this is really your fault.” This is the essence of any argument blaming American foreign policy. An evil act can never be justified by an evil act committed against you. The responsibility for Murder rests solely with the party that thought about, planned, organized, and executed the murder. To say anything less is to say murder can be justifiable given the circumstances.

Most sunni Muslims that I know, or have seen on TV will denounce 9/11 because terrorism is bad they say, but also construe the question to say that American foreign policy is also Terrorism. It boils down to moral equivalence, which completely negates the statements they first made about terrorist act against the U.S. as being wrong. “Killing civilians is wrong, but America has done bad things, so they (terrorists) are really not to blame.”

Also to have to bring up possible contributing factors, or excuses every time they are asked to flat out denounce islamic terrorism is the same thing as blaming a woman who was raped because she looked too pretty, or maybe she was naive and wore a short skirt. The constant argument that blames America for 9/11 is to say that the only humans that have free will are Americans and that the only people that are responsible for their actions are Americans.
 
Booklover said:
Yes, I visit that site regularly! So far Muslims have not proved that those charges against Muhammad are false! Have you checked the debates?

Vickie
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Yes Vickie i find the debate interesting at best, but remember we can’t say things to other people of different faiths, through anger and hate. We must say things through pity and love. We must show an example to others.

Paul
 
stephanut said:
since when did I ever say I support terrorism? millions of innocents have died around the world without america speaking out against it. then 9/11 comes and boom, it’s as if muslims hate america. i don’t want to venture into political territory, but that’s what is is - politics. it’s got nothing to do with religion, but i’m very sorry that our religions have ended up being entangled in this mess.
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The fact that Americans are more outraged about Americans dying than others is because they are Americans! Do you think any nationality is different? I think this a sad thing no less but it is a fact of life. Why? Well, you hear about murders or rapes everyday in this country, but you dont break down and cry everytime a new one happens, but what if it was your own child or your spouse? Your reaction might be alot different. If you can explain to me why people in families care more about their family members than they do perfect strangers, then you have the answer to why Americans are more shocked by Americans dying than others.

If you want to blame America for this type of behavior, that is fine, just remember to condemn the rest of the world for it as well.
 
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