Muslim friends... We will NOT convert...

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Sixtus said:
But I have witnessed some very holy spiritual prayerful dedicated peaceful Muslims. So much so that I stand in awe of Islam, comparing their spirituality with my own and have to confess I fall terribly short.
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I used to have that impression about Islam. It is not the fact that devout Muslims pray 5 times a day- God is certainly worthy of such devotion- but did God mandate such practice? Apparently Muhammed bargained with allah to reduce it from about 50 times a day to only 5.

Is this not in conflict with Islamic prayers?
"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
Matthew 6:4-6

And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
Matthew 6:6-8

The repetative nature of rakah’s seems to fall into that category.

Islamic prayers seem to be more about 1984 type indoctrination and population control than actual devotion on the part of the religious leaders. This does not diminsh the average Muslims true devotion neccessarily, but does God really want coerced worship?
 
While I respect my Muslim brothers and sisters, have absolutely no intention of converting to Islam but it has to be said the Quran contains writings about the Virgin Mary not contained in the Bible.
and in my view, does her more justice 🙂
 
Sixtus said:
While I respect my Muslim brothers and sisters, have absolutely no intention of converting to Islam but it has to be said the Quran contains writings about the Virgin Mary not contained in the Bible.
and in my view, does her more justice 🙂
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What “more justice” do you speak of? Are the writtings honorable and true to the Catholic faith?

The word(s) “Mary” appears 100 time(s) in 43 verse(s) in Quran in M. Khan translation.

The word(s) “Mary” appears 35 time(s) in 32 verse(s) in Quran in Yusuf Ali translation.

The word(s) “Marium” appears 34 time(s) in 31 verse(s) in Quran in Shakir translation.

The word(s) “Mary” appears 35 time(s) in 32 verse(s) in Quran in Pickthal translation.

Most references are limited to:
Such is Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). (it is) a statement of truth, about which they doubt (or dispute).
( سورة مريم , Maryam, Chapter #19, Verse #34)

Simple reference is not profound recognition in my view. Reading what is actually said often disagrees with the Catholic belief.

And (remember) when the angels said: “O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah has chosen you, purified you (from polytheism and disbelief), and chosen you above the women of the Alameen (mankind and jinns) (of her lifetime).”
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #42)

Was she previoulsy in disbelief? Being chosen above a Jinn is significant? Is such praise limited to women in her lifetime only?

For surely; they killed him not (i.e. Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) ):
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)

Is this worthy to be noted as true?

And in their footsteps, We sent Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), confirming the Taurat (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurat (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqoon (the pious - see V.2:2).
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #46)

🤷

And they say: “The Most Beneficent (Allah) has begotten a son (or children).” Glory to Him! They (those whom they call children of Allah i.e. the angels, Iesa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary), Uzair (Ezra), etc.), are but honoured slaves.
( سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chapter #21, Verse #26)

This denies the Catholic faith.

And We made the son of Maryam (Mary) and his mother as a sign, And We gave them refuge on high ground, a place of rest, security and flowing streams.
( سورة المؤمنون , Al-Mumenoon, Chapter #23, Verse #50)

Is there some higher insight I am missing from this?

And when the son of Maryam (Mary) is quoted as an example (i.e. Iesa (Jesus) is worshipped like their idols), behold! Your people cry aloud (laugh out at the example).
( سورة الزخرف , Az-Zukhruf, Chapter #43, Verse #57)

O you who believe! Be you helpers (in the Cause) of Allah as said Iesa (Jesus), son of maryam (mary), to AlHawareeoon (the disciples): “Who are my helpers (in the Cause) of Allah?” AlHawareeeen (the disciples) said: “We are Allahs helpers” (i.e. we will strive in His Cause!). Then a group of the Children of Israel believed and a group disbelieved. So We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, and they became the uppermost.
( سورة الصف , As-Saff, Chapter #61, Verse #14)

I’m just not seeing the greater respect to Jesus or Mary in the Qur’an than the Bible. If you have a different view, I’d like to hear it.
 
Sixtus said:
While I respect my Muslim brothers and sisters, have absolutely no intention of converting to Islam but it has to be said the Quran contains writings about the Virgin Mary not contained in the Bible.
and in my view, does her more justice 🙂
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But the writings in the Qur’an are fabricated. So do they really count?
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
Please read for yourself Surah Maryam in Quran, it would be an interesting read and an oppurtunity to make a comparitive study.Please access:www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=19
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
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[19:16] And peace was on him the day he was born, and the day he died, and peace will be on him the day he will be raised up to life again.

He (John) did not die peacefully. 17 verses in her chapter, Mary is finally mentioned.

[19:17] And relate the story of Mary as mentioned in the Book, when she withdrew from her people to an eastern place;

[19:18] And screened herself off from them. Then We sent Our angel to her and he appeared to her in the form of a well proportioned man.

What does that mean to you?

[19:24] And the pains of child-birth drove her unto the trunk of a palm-tree. She said, 'O, would that I had died before this and had become a thing quite forgotten!

Really?

[19:28] Then she brought him to her people, mounted. They said, 'O Mary, surely, thou hast committed a monstrous thing!

Really??

[19:30] Thereupon she pointed to him. They said, ‘How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?’

[19:31] Jesus said, 'I am a servant of Allah. He has given me the Book, and has made me a Prophet;

Really???

[19:34] ‘And peace was on me the day I was born, and peace will be on me the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised up to life again.’

Jesus did not die peacefully either.

[19:35] That was Jesus, son of Mary. This is a statement of the truth concerning which they entertain doubt.

[19:36] It does not befit the Majesty of Allah to take unto Himself a son. Holy is He. When He decrees a thing, He says to it, ‘Be, and it comes into being.’

Nothing else is said about Mary in that sura unless this reference is used here:

[19:89] And they say, ‘The Gracious God has taken unto Himself a son.’

[19:90] Assuredly, you have indeed uttered a most hideous thing.

A bit more of that before the last verse:

[19:99] And how many a generation have We destroyed before them! Canst thou perceive a single one of them, or hear even a whisper of them?

What great truth or profound insight does this bring to the Blessed Virgin? It contradicts Christianity to the core, and though that may not bother you, it bothers me a great deal.
 
Verisimilitude said:
Jesus did not die peacefully either.
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Hi
Quran mentions clearly that the Jews of the time of JesusYeshuaIssa never succeeded in killing him, neither with a sword nor on Cross as he was delivered from it in near-dead position yet he was saved and alive. GodAllahYHWH rewarded him well and he died peacefully like a prince in India, most of the ten lost tribes of Israel converted and believed him as a truthful ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH. He died with respect and in peace. May GodAllahYHWH rest him in the heavens with absolute peace. No doubt he was true servant of GodAllahYHWH.This is my opinion with reasons I have mentioned; others should believe what they conceive as truth.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
Quran mentions clearly that the Jews of the time of JesusYeshuaIssa never succeeded in killing him, neither with a sword nor on Cross as he was delivered from it in near-dead position yet he was saved and alive. GodAllahYHWH rewarded him well and he died peacefully like a prince in India, most of the ten lost tribes of Israel converted and believed him as a truthful ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH. He died with respect and in peace. May GodAllahYHWH rest him in the heavens with absolute peace. No doubt he was true servant of GodAllahYHWH.This is my opinion with reasons I have mentioned; others should believe what they conceive as truth.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
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Paar…
Again and again I read the same old post from you…
We will not convert NOR believe what the quran says.
We believe what is in the BIBLE…
God Bless you and may he lead you to the truth…
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
Quran mentions clearly that the Jews of the time of JesusYeshuaIssa never succeeded in killing him, neither with a sword nor on Cross as he was delivered from it in near-dead position yet he was saved and alive. GodAllahYHWH rewarded him well and he died peacefully like a prince in India, most of the ten lost tribes of Israel converted and believed him as a truthful ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH. He died with respect and in peace. May GodAllahYHWH rest him in the heavens with absolute peace. No doubt he was true servant of GodAllahYHWH.This is my opinion with reasons I have mentioned; others should believe what they conceive as truth.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
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That is what I call an M&M. Muhammeds Myth. Your opinion as well as the Qur’an are simply wrong.
 
{QUOTE}Well, you hear about murders or rapes everyday in this country, but you dont break down and cry everytime a new one happens{/QUOTE}

Yes I do, redmars.

Also, paarsurrey is trying to understand the general pov on this forum, and not antagonize particularly, so go easy. An academic stance is perhaps preferable than a proselytizing or fundamentalist approach, for many reasons. He’s new here, after all, and seems to be a genuinely kind person. 🙂

I cannot convert, from anything to anything, since the entire idea of ‘faith’ as I hear others speak of it is alien to me at the core. Yet do not both your faiths preach that all humankind are brothers? (sigh, not sisters, necessarily…Jesus seems to have gotten that but Paul, not so much, or Muhammed either…let us excel, even beyond what has gone before!)

I do not understand what any of you mean by ‘believing’ what your scriptures say, but I see the merits (and the occasional flaws) in all of them. I suppose I’m just a critic by nature 😛 . But, while it may not help, and indeed it may bring more opprobrium, upon my head and those like me, I shall say that it isn’t so easy to see much difference between most religions, and especially not the Abrahamic ones, from an outsider’s viewpoint, however scholarly and sympathetic.
 
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paarsurrey:
Hi
Quran mentions clearly that the Jews of the time of JesusYeshuaIssa never succeeded in killing him, neither with a sword nor on Cross as he was delivered from it in near-dead position yet he was saved and alive. GodAllahYHWH rewarded him well and he died peacefully like a prince in India, most of the ten lost tribes of Israel converted and believed him as a truthful ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH. He died with respect and in peace. May GodAllahYHWH rest him in the heavens with absolute peace. No doubt he was true servant of GodAllahYHWH.This is my opinion with reasons I have mentioned; others should believe what they conceive as truth.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

There is only one reason that Islam tells the story this way… because in order for Islam to be true, Christianity has to be a lie. Islam has attempted to discredit much of the Judeao Christian religion and history, what it does not discredit, it steals.

The Qur’an is not from God, it is a man made religion to give the Caliphs the authority to use force to conquer the world and control those it conquers. Note that Christianity does not do this. It forbids using force to take over others. Beware of false prophets… you will know them from their fruit. Muhammad used his false prophet hood to justify all sorts of horrible things… like attacking innocent tribes to kill or enslave them. In doing this he took their lands and property for this own personal use. He became personally wealth by stealing from people. He allowed his followers to gain financially from war too. Note that in the OT they are told to destroy the property. This is so that people did not view war as a way to justify stealing from people. Muhammad also gave himself the authority to marry as many women as he choose and to have as many concubines as he choose. He used his revelations to justify him and his men raping war captives (yes I can show you the Hadiths were he tells his men that its ok to rape.) He even claims that God told him to marry and have sex with a 9 year old. At the time of his death, he was lusting after another baby. So when Muhammad’s people wrote the Qur’an they wrote it in a way to give them all these personal gains. To do this Muslims have to destroy Judaism and Christianity. There is of course absolute historical and scriptural proof to everything I’ve said… all of it written by Muslims themselves. It is Islam that recorded the debauchery and violence of Islam.
 
hamba2han said:
Muslims believe that when Prophet Jesus (pbuh) returns at the end times, everyone alive then will revert to Islam.

In any case, ALL of us will know the Truth when our brief stay in this world comes to an end.

And so, it is not a matter of ‘if’ but rather ‘when’ every single one of us finally accepts the Truth… only for some, it would already be too late to do them much good.
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Says who?
 
Mirdath said:
{QUOTE}Well, you hear about murders or rapes everyday in this country, but you dont break down and cry everytime a new one happens{/QUOTE}

Yes I do, redmars.
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Not to judge too harshly, but somehow I doubt your statement as you found the time to write your post. I also assume you have a job to support yourself. If you broke down crying for every single person that was murdered and raped as they happened the same way that you would for an immediate family member(the shock, pain, disbelief, depression) when do you find the time to work? To shower? Eat? To sleep? To live?

Besides, what is your point about this any way? One sentence does not not tell much, please explain a little more.
 
Actually, one can see, if one has read about the gnostic christians, that Islam holds many of their beliefs. It’s not so much an attempt to discredit, but an attempt to absorb, but one that fails due to a misguided idea of what mainstream Christianity was about.

It is therefore a known heresy well before Mohammed’s time.

The bit about Christ not being dead on the cross existed in Gnostic CHristianity.
 
This quote is not accurate…

Qur’an 47:4 “When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”

Therefore, when you meet The Unbelievers (in fight), Smite them at their necks; at length when you thoroughly subdue them, bind a bond. Firmly (on them); thereafter (is it either time for generosity or ransom.) Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus ye are commanded. Thus if it had been Allah’s will he could have exacted retribution from them himself; but he lets you fight in order to test you. Some with you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of Allah-- he will never let be lost.

What you have to do is understand context and situation. First of all, if you find yourself inn war (and war happens) you should strike down and subdue your attacker. (and this you can only do in self-defense). And they were under attack by the Quareshi at the time. Then you should deal justly with them either giving freedom or give back for ransom. And if Allah wants to take retribution if Allah wills. (Everyone remember Sodom and Gammorah?) And this is a test. For all people. It has nothing to do with anyone doing or gaining from these people something for Islam. And if you start unjust war, and repent you should be given the benefit of the doubt. No where does it say you must continue to fight people not fighting you. And the challenge is to stay true to one’s values even in war.

Jihad is about a personal test. We are all tested by God / Allah. I do not think that people of any faith or spirituality really does not think that they are not “tested” in some way or another.
Peace

Therefore, when you meet The Unbelievers (in fight), Smite them at their necks; at length when you thoroughly subdue them, bind a bond. Firmly (on them); thereafter (is it either time for generosity or ransom.) Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus ye are commanded. Thus if it had been Allah’s will he could have exacted retribution from them himself; but he lets you fight in order to test you. Some with you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of Allah-- he will never let be lost.

What you have to do is understand context and situation. First of all, if you find yourself inn war (and war happens) you should strike down and subdue your attacker. (and this you can only do in self-defense). And they were under attack by the Quareshi at the time. Then you should deal justly with them either giving freedom or give back for ransom. And if Allah wants to take retribution if Allah wills. (Everyone remember Sodom and Gammorah?) And this is a test. For all people. It has nothing to do with anyone doing or gaining from these people something for Islam. And if you start unjust war, and repent you should be given the benefit of the doubt. No where does it say you must continue to fight people not fighting you. And the challenge is to stay true to one’s values even in war.

Jihad is about a personal test. We are all tested by God / Allah. I do not think that people of any faith or spirituality really does not think that they are not “tested” in some way or another.
Peace
 
Hayfa said:
This quote is not accurate…

Qur’an 47:4 “When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”

Therefore, when you meet The Unbelievers (in fight), Smite them at their necks; at length when you thoroughly subdue them, bind a bond. Firmly (on them); thereafter (is it either time for generosity or ransom.) Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus ye are commanded. Thus if it had been Allah’s will he could have exacted retribution from them himself; but he lets you fight in order to test you. Some with you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of Allah-- he will never let be lost.

What you have to do is understand context and situation. First of all, if you find yourself inn war (and war happens) you should strike down and subdue your attacker. (and this you can only do in self-defense). And they were under attack by the Quareshi at the time. Then you should deal justly with them either giving freedom or give back for ransom. And if Allah wants to take retribution if Allah wills. (Everyone remember Sodom and Gammorah?) And this is a test. For all people. It has nothing to do with anyone doing or gaining from these people something for Islam. And if you start unjust war, and repent you should be given the benefit of the doubt. No where does it say you must continue to fight people not fighting you. And the challenge is to stay true to one’s values even in war.

Jihad is about a personal test. We are all tested by God / Allah. I do not think that people of any faith or spirituality really does not think that they are not “tested” in some way or another.
Peace

Therefore, when you meet The Unbelievers (in fight), Smite them at their necks; at length when you thoroughly subdue them, bind a bond. Firmly (on them); thereafter (is it either time for generosity or ransom.) Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus ye are commanded. Thus if it had been Allah’s will he could have exacted retribution from them himself; but he lets you fight in order to test you. Some with you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of Allah-- he will never let be lost.

What you have to do is understand context and situation. First of all, if you find yourself inn war (and war happens) you should strike down and subdue your attacker. (and this you can only do in self-defense). And they were under attack by the Quareshi at the time. Then you should deal justly with them either giving freedom or give back for ransom. And if Allah wants to take retribution if Allah wills. (Everyone remember Sodom and Gammorah?) And this is a test. For all people. It has nothing to do with anyone doing or gaining from these people something for Islam. And if you start unjust war, and repent you should be given the benefit of the doubt. No where does it say you must continue to fight people not fighting you. And the challenge is to stay true to one’s values even in war.

Jihad is about a personal test. We are all tested by God / Allah. I do not think that people of any faith or spirituality really does not think that they are not “tested” in some way or another.
Peace
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Luke 6:27-36

27"But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

Oh I love the bible…
It does not teach us to hate and destroy, but how to love. :o
 
Islam is a false religion of oppression and murder. Those who believe in it are parties to that oppression and murder. Moslems have never repudiated the violence of their religion and they never will. We are in a war for the survival of Christianity and the West. Mark my words.
 
Hayfa said:
Jihad is about a personal test. We are all tested by God / Allah. I do not think that people of any faith or spirituality really does not think that they are not “tested” in some way or another.
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There are two types of jihad… the personal test or strife of an individual to be a better Muslim. This is called the greater jihad.

The lesser jihad it violent war for the purpose of spreading Islam.

It is the obligation of all Muslims to be involved in violent jihad.

The Muslims must first offer those they intend to attack a chance to convert to Islam or accept subjugation under Islamic rule. If they reject those choices then the Muslims are to attack and kill them.
Hayfa said:
What you have to do is understand context and situation. First of all, if you find yourself inn war (and war happens) you should strike down and subdue your attacker. (and this you can only do in self-defense).
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You are right that context is very important. The context of ‘self-defense’ is a tricky one because it depends on when a people believe that they must defend themselves. In Islam, if people reject conversion or subjugation, then they are considered to be at war with Islam.

An example. Tribe A is minding their own business living their lives as they have for thousands of years. A Muslim army shows up on their town gate and say they must covert to Islam or subjugate themselves accepting Islamic rule. Now Tribe A has not lifted a finger, no weapons, etc. But they tell the Muslims no, that they reject Islam on all levels. This is a horrible affront to the Muslims, it is construed as an attack on Islam because Tribe A is impeded the growth of Islam. So in self defense, the Islamic army can now attack Tribe A… not because Tribe A was a physical threat, but because since it did not capitulate to Islam it is now the enemy of Islam.

In Islam there is the world of Islam and the world of war. Anyone who is not a Muslim is automatically part of the world of war.

Islamic history is filled with wars and battles started by Muslims against people whose only ‘crime’ was that they did not want be Muslims… this is how Islam rid the Arab Peninsula of the non-Muslims and how it spread through the Middle East, North Africa, Spain, Easter Europe and the Indian Subcontinent. My Muslims beginning the aggressors.

(continued below)
 
(continued from above)
Hayfa said:
And they were under attack by the Quareshi at the time.
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It does appear that th eQuareshi and the other tribes of the Mecca and Medina were right when the found Muhammad and his gang to be a threat. They were. The biggest mistake they made was that they did not take him seriously enough and rise up against him in greater numbers sooner. Let’s fact it, Muhammad was their enemy.
Hayfa said:
(Everyone remember Sodom and Gammorah?)
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Do not flatter Islam by claiming similarity to what occurred at Sodom and Gomorrah. NO human destroyed them… it is one of the great mysteries in that those two towns were literally scorched off the earth. To this day the land where they were shows scars of some cataclysmic event. That was God’s work, not a group of thugs attacking everyone to gain political control.
Hayfa said:
(
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Then you should deal justly with them either giving freedom or give back for ransom.

*Volume 5, Book 59, Number 443: *Narrated 'Aisha:
*Military Expeditions led by the Prophet (pbuh) (Al-Maghaazi)
*When the Prophet returned from Al-Khandaq (i.e. Trench) and laid down his arms and took a bath, Gabriel came and said (to the Prophet ), You have laid down your arms? By Allah, we angels have not laid them down yet. So set out for them." The Prophet said, “Where to go?” Gabriel said, “Towards this side,” pointing towards Banu Quraiza. So the Prophet went out towards them. usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.443
So Muhammad attacked Banu Quraiza. When they surrendered unconditionally to Muhammad what mercy did Muhammad show? NONE…. All able bodies men of the tribe were decapitation, of 700-900, in one night. The women and children were taken prisoners and their wealth divided among the Muslim fighters. Muhammad and his men raped the women captives the next day… there is a hadith that explains that Muhammad had a revelation allowing the rape.
How did the Muslims decide which of the younger males would were to be beheaded?
*Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud) Book 38, Number 4390:
*Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:
I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/038.sat.html#038.4390
 
It does appear that th eQuareshi and the other tribes of the Mecca and Medina were right when the found Muhammad and his gang to be a threat. They were. The biggest mistake they made was that they did not take him seriously enough and rise up against him in greater numbers sooner. Let’s fact it, Muhammad was their enemy.
Well ywes and did you want them to stay? They beleived in female infanticide? They did not belive all people were equal under one God, regardless of clan, tribe, race. So you think that was better… That is like saying having Mao and Stalin is better… gee wiz.

Maybe you should read about them Even by Someone more neutran such as Karen Armstrong… they Qureshi as you put it would tying people ot stakes in the dessert to die just cuase they beleived in One God… That is real nice and “loving”
 
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