R
rien
Guest
I can’t find the exact verse. We were on our way out when a Muslim missionary asked to chat with us. That is about all she got out before we politely drove off. Is this an accurate verse from Deut?
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Lazerlike42
Guest
So far as I can figure, they were referring to Moses teaching in Deuteronomy 4 that Israel was not to make any carved image of God, for He had no form, and so could not be carved. It is the only thing remotely close to what they said, and I can’t find any other argument on the internet or apologetics sites aimed at answering Islamic claims.
Regarding the passages I did find, they simply say God had no form then, not that He never would take on a form. This is what St. Paul Himself argues, when He says in Colossians that Christ is the image of the invisible God. The Second Council of Nicaea actually argued along these lines precisely in its decision that icons and statues and such were acceptable. In the time of Moses, they said, God had no form to represent, and so representations were not possible, could only lead to the worship of created things, and so were condemned. However, now that God did have a form, it was not only perfectly permissible to represent Him, but in fact the refusal to do so would constitute in a certain way a denial of the Incarnation.
Peace and God bless!
Regarding the passages I did find, they simply say God had no form then, not that He never would take on a form. This is what St. Paul Himself argues, when He says in Colossians that Christ is the image of the invisible God. The Second Council of Nicaea actually argued along these lines precisely in its decision that icons and statues and such were acceptable. In the time of Moses, they said, God had no form to represent, and so representations were not possible, could only lead to the worship of created things, and so were condemned. However, now that God did have a form, it was not only perfectly permissible to represent Him, but in fact the refusal to do so would constitute in a certain way a denial of the Incarnation.
Peace and God bless!
D
Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Their “proof text” is a pre-text. Basically, the text is simply saying that God is not fickled, that his word means what it says.
It is in the context of Balaam trying to get God to change his mind about Isreal. The text in context has noting to do with denying the possiblity of an incarnation of God in the person of Jesus. God is contrasting himself with a fickled man, who can not be stadfest in his ways, and he is saying he is not like a little child who does not know what he really wants.
Numbers 23
Balaam’s First Oracle
1 Balaam said, “Build me seven altars here, and prepare seven bulls and seven rams for me.” 2 Balak did as Balaam said, and the two of them offered a bull and a ram on each altar.
3 Then Balaam said to Balak, “Stay here beside your offering while I go aside. Perhaps the LORD will come to meet with me. Whatever he reveals to me I will tell you.” Then he went off to a barren height.
4 God met with him, and Balaam said, “I have prepared seven altars, and on each altar I have offered a bull and a ram.”
5 The LORD put a message in Balaam’s mouth and said, “Go back to Balak and give him this message.”
6 So he went back to him and found him standing beside his offering, with all the princes of Moab. 7 Then Balaam uttered his oracle:
"Balak brought me from Aram,
the king of Moab from the eastern mountains.
‘Come,’ he said, ‘curse Jacob for me;
come, denounce Israel.’
8 How can I curse
those whom God has not cursed?
How can I denounce
those whom the LORD has not denounced?
9 From the rocky peaks I see them,
from the heights I view them.
I see a people who live apart
and do not consider themselves one of the nations.
10 Who can count the dust of Jacob
or number the fourth part of Israel?
Let me die the death of the righteous,
and may my end be like theirs!"
11 Balak said to Balaam, “What have you done to me? I brought you to curse my enemies, but you have done nothing but bless them!”
12 He answered, “Must I not speak what the LORD puts in my mouth?”
Balaam’s Second Oracle
13 Then Balak said to him, “Come with me to another place where you can see them; you will see only a part but not all of them. And from there, curse them for me.” 14 So he took him to the field of Zophim on the top of Pisgah, and there he built seven altars and offered a bull and a ram on each altar.
15 Balaam said to Balak, “Stay here beside your offering while I meet with him over there.”
16 The LORD met with Balaam and put a message in his mouth and said, “Go back to Balak and give him this message.”
17 So he went to him and found him standing beside his offering, with the princes of Moab. Balak asked him, “What did the LORD say?”
18 Then he uttered his oracle:
"Arise, Balak, and listen;
hear me, son of Zippor.
**19 God is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. **
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?
20 I have received a command to bless;
he has blessed, and I cannot change it.
21 "No misfortune is seen in Jacob,
no misery observed in Israel. [a]
The LORD their God is with them;
the shout of the King is among them.
22 God brought them out of Egypt;
they have the strength of a wild ox.
23 There is no sorcery against Jacob,
no divination against Israel.
It will now be said of Jacob
and of Israel, ‘See what God has done!’
24 The people rise like a lioness;
they rouse themselves like a lion
that does not rest till he devours his prey
and drinks the blood of his victims."
25 Then Balak said to Balaam, “Neither curse them at all nor bless them at all!”
26 Balaam answered, “Did I not tell you I must do whatever the LORD says?”
Balaam’s Third Oracle
27 Then Balak said to Balaam, “Come, let me take you to another place. Perhaps it will please God to let you curse them for me from there.” 28 And Balak took Balaam to the top of Peor, overlooking the wasteland.
29 Balaam said, “Build me seven altars here, and prepare seven bulls and seven rams for me.” 30 Balak did as Balaam had said, and offered a bull and a ram on each altar.
It is in the context of Balaam trying to get God to change his mind about Isreal. The text in context has noting to do with denying the possiblity of an incarnation of God in the person of Jesus. God is contrasting himself with a fickled man, who can not be stadfest in his ways, and he is saying he is not like a little child who does not know what he really wants.
Numbers 23
Balaam’s First Oracle
1 Balaam said, “Build me seven altars here, and prepare seven bulls and seven rams for me.” 2 Balak did as Balaam said, and the two of them offered a bull and a ram on each altar.
3 Then Balaam said to Balak, “Stay here beside your offering while I go aside. Perhaps the LORD will come to meet with me. Whatever he reveals to me I will tell you.” Then he went off to a barren height.
4 God met with him, and Balaam said, “I have prepared seven altars, and on each altar I have offered a bull and a ram.”
5 The LORD put a message in Balaam’s mouth and said, “Go back to Balak and give him this message.”
6 So he went back to him and found him standing beside his offering, with all the princes of Moab. 7 Then Balaam uttered his oracle:
"Balak brought me from Aram,
the king of Moab from the eastern mountains.
‘Come,’ he said, ‘curse Jacob for me;
come, denounce Israel.’
8 How can I curse
those whom God has not cursed?
How can I denounce
those whom the LORD has not denounced?
9 From the rocky peaks I see them,
from the heights I view them.
I see a people who live apart
and do not consider themselves one of the nations.
10 Who can count the dust of Jacob
or number the fourth part of Israel?
Let me die the death of the righteous,
and may my end be like theirs!"
11 Balak said to Balaam, “What have you done to me? I brought you to curse my enemies, but you have done nothing but bless them!”
12 He answered, “Must I not speak what the LORD puts in my mouth?”
Balaam’s Second Oracle
13 Then Balak said to him, “Come with me to another place where you can see them; you will see only a part but not all of them. And from there, curse them for me.” 14 So he took him to the field of Zophim on the top of Pisgah, and there he built seven altars and offered a bull and a ram on each altar.
15 Balaam said to Balak, “Stay here beside your offering while I meet with him over there.”
16 The LORD met with Balaam and put a message in his mouth and said, “Go back to Balak and give him this message.”
17 So he went to him and found him standing beside his offering, with the princes of Moab. Balak asked him, “What did the LORD say?”
18 Then he uttered his oracle:
"Arise, Balak, and listen;
hear me, son of Zippor.
**19 God is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. **
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?
20 I have received a command to bless;
he has blessed, and I cannot change it.
21 "No misfortune is seen in Jacob,
no misery observed in Israel. [a]
The LORD their God is with them;
the shout of the King is among them.
22 God brought them out of Egypt;
they have the strength of a wild ox.
23 There is no sorcery against Jacob,
no divination against Israel.
It will now be said of Jacob
and of Israel, ‘See what God has done!’
24 The people rise like a lioness;
they rouse themselves like a lion
that does not rest till he devours his prey
and drinks the blood of his victims."
25 Then Balak said to Balaam, “Neither curse them at all nor bless them at all!”
26 Balaam answered, “Did I not tell you I must do whatever the LORD says?”
Balaam’s Third Oracle
27 Then Balak said to Balaam, “Come, let me take you to another place. Perhaps it will please God to let you curse them for me from there.” 28 And Balak took Balaam to the top of Peor, overlooking the wasteland.
29 Balaam said, “Build me seven altars here, and prepare seven bulls and seven rams for me.” 30 Balak did as Balaam had said, and offered a bull and a ram on each altar.
F
Flying_Bison
Guest
I find that very puzzling.
Muslim’s try and argue against our faith by using the bible.
The same bible that they claim is distorted and corrupted.
So, they think that verses that appear to oppose Christian views (Albeit, usually taken way out of context and not understood well by Muslims) are not corrupted
BUT
The thousands of verses that refute Islam are indeed corrupted.
That sounds like a double standard to me.
SO, is the bible corrupted or not corrupted. If Muslims choose to argue from it then it must be considered trustworthy and non-corrupt and thus able to be used to refute the contradictions of Islam. If it is corrupted and not trust worthy, what is the use of using to validate one’s point.
Muslim’s try and argue against our faith by using the bible.
The same bible that they claim is distorted and corrupted.
So, they think that verses that appear to oppose Christian views (Albeit, usually taken way out of context and not understood well by Muslims) are not corrupted
BUT
The thousands of verses that refute Islam are indeed corrupted.
That sounds like a double standard to me.
SO, is the bible corrupted or not corrupted. If Muslims choose to argue from it then it must be considered trustworthy and non-corrupt and thus able to be used to refute the contradictions of Islam. If it is corrupted and not trust worthy, what is the use of using to validate one’s point.
J
Jimdandy
Guest
God the Father is pure Spirit and has no form-remember how many Jews were killed by the Levites when they formed the Golden Calf?!
His form we are not allowed to shape
Jesus is ok with His image being painted and copied-ie the Divine Mercy Picture
so you see, we all share some of the Truth
His form we are not allowed to shape
Jesus is ok with His image being painted and copied-ie the Divine Mercy Picture
so you see, we all share some of the Truth
F
Formosus
Guest
They weren’t trying to form God the Father by making the Golden Calf, they were killed for forming a pagan idol to worhsip rather then God the Father.
The Latin Church does have Icons representing God the Father, I do not care for them too much but the fact does remain that they are allowed.
The Latin Church does have Icons representing God the Father, I do not care for them too much but the fact does remain that they are allowed.
J
Jimdandy
Guest
I said we because Jesus was Jewish, I consider His past my past.
RCs also depict the Father as an old man with a flowing white beard.
The point was, Aaron tried to lessen the guilt of the idolators
by forming what was (then)considered a God-like form-the bull
But, just never mind
RCs also depict the Father as an old man with a flowing white beard.
The point was, Aaron tried to lessen the guilt of the idolators
by forming what was (then)considered a God-like form-the bull
But, just never mind
F
Formosus
Guest
But that is Aaron’s intent in making it, the people though were not worshiping it as God the Father, they were worshipping it as a pagan deity that was their true savior as opposed to God the Father. Hence why Moses had to lay down the law (in a very litteral sense).
J
Jimdandy
Guest
you are correct
I
IslamicBelief
Guest
this is a message to everyone,
I thank god that you have thought about your faith instead of following blindly and rejected the concept of the man begotten god,
I begin with a quote from the Holy Quran(the book of muslims)
in the name of god, the most merciful
“Say he is god the only one, The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks, He begets not, nor was He begotten, And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him” (Holy Quran, chapter 112)
In islam, we believe that jesus(pbuh) was a righteous prophet sent by god to guide mankind from a virgin righteous mother, but we also believe that god did this miracle simply by ordering it to take place, and he doesnt need to beget nor be begotten, since he has already created Adam(pbuh) from almost nothing, therefore it would be easier on him to create jesus from a mother without a father!
as god said in he holy quran:
'Verily, the likeness of ‘Iesa (Jesus) before Allah(god) is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: “Be!” - and he was…(This is) the truth from your Lord, so be not of those who doubt’ (Holy Quran, Chp.3 verses 59,60)
Brother, I invite you to consider the message of islam, the message that we believe is the final message which god almighty have sent to mankind to correct the corruptions that were made to earlier teachings by humans and which god has promised to preserve its teachings and along with his final revelation (The Holy Quran) and which has been preserved exactly the same as it is since the time it was revealed by god 1400 years ago, and no single letter has been changed, and we still have the original book in which it has been written the first time…which proves nothing except this is the true book of god almighty.
Brother , i invite you to the message of monotheism,ISLAM, the religion where god doesnt want you to follow blindly and turn off your common sense, but instead he shows you many proofs and wants you to think about everything he’s telling you and wonder about his glorious and magnificant creation.
Brother, in islam, we have FAITH and PROOF, and believe me you’ll be shocked when you know the truths and facts that god almighty have revealed in his holy book , The Quran
this is a brotherly advice to everyone reading this, to check the message of islam…since its our duty to deliver it to you, then the choice is up to you…
The Holy Quran:
noblequran.com/translation/index.html
Islamic Beliefs:
islamtomorrow.com
I thank god that you have thought about your faith instead of following blindly and rejected the concept of the man begotten god,
I begin with a quote from the Holy Quran(the book of muslims)
in the name of god, the most merciful
“Say he is god the only one, The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks, He begets not, nor was He begotten, And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him” (Holy Quran, chapter 112)
In islam, we believe that jesus(pbuh) was a righteous prophet sent by god to guide mankind from a virgin righteous mother, but we also believe that god did this miracle simply by ordering it to take place, and he doesnt need to beget nor be begotten, since he has already created Adam(pbuh) from almost nothing, therefore it would be easier on him to create jesus from a mother without a father!
as god said in he holy quran:
'Verily, the likeness of ‘Iesa (Jesus) before Allah(god) is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: “Be!” - and he was…(This is) the truth from your Lord, so be not of those who doubt’ (Holy Quran, Chp.3 verses 59,60)
Brother, I invite you to consider the message of islam, the message that we believe is the final message which god almighty have sent to mankind to correct the corruptions that were made to earlier teachings by humans and which god has promised to preserve its teachings and along with his final revelation (The Holy Quran) and which has been preserved exactly the same as it is since the time it was revealed by god 1400 years ago, and no single letter has been changed, and we still have the original book in which it has been written the first time…which proves nothing except this is the true book of god almighty.
Brother , i invite you to the message of monotheism,ISLAM, the religion where god doesnt want you to follow blindly and turn off your common sense, but instead he shows you many proofs and wants you to think about everything he’s telling you and wonder about his glorious and magnificant creation.
Brother, in islam, we have FAITH and PROOF, and believe me you’ll be shocked when you know the truths and facts that god almighty have revealed in his holy book , The Quran
this is a brotherly advice to everyone reading this, to check the message of islam…since its our duty to deliver it to you, then the choice is up to you…
The Holy Quran:
noblequran.com/translation/index.html
Islamic Beliefs:
islamtomorrow.com
B
bogeydogg
Guest
So what about 3%+ of the Quran which is abrogated? The book may never have been changed, but it is my understanding that believers are instructed to not believe all of it. Is that correct?
As far as corruptions in the Bible… Like what?
As far as corruptions in the Bible… Like what?
V
VociMike
Guest
Right you are. The quickest and most irrefutable answer to any Muslim use of Judeo-Christian scripture is to say “Well that must be some of the scripture that got corrupted.” What can they say? Are they now going to argue for the inerrancy of Judeo-Christian scripture?
I
IslamicBelief
Guest
REALLY! actually, the corruption of the bible and the fabrications that have been added across history is a fact thats agreed on among almost all christian theologians and scholars, and its not only the muslims who claim this!Right you are. The quickest and most irrefutable answer to any Muslim use of Judeo-Christian scripture is to say “Well that must be some of the scripture that got corrupted.” What can they say? Are they now going to argue for the inerrancy of Judeo-Christian scripture?
so, anyone who tries to avoid accepting this fact is actually fooling himself and trying to avoid the troubles of at least checking that because of the consequences it will have on his ‘faith’…so, brothers we muslims invite you to at least study our faith as we already know yours, since ours is the completion of yours…and for the honest seeker of the truth, u’ll find it.
our beliefs:
islamtomorrow.com
I
IslamicBelief
Guest
no brother, wht. you’re saying is not accurate at all.
no single letter ever has been altered from the Holy Quran, and actually we still have the original book in its original form, and its exactly the same…and you could check it if you want i think in Istanbul’s museum.
second, what you said about believing some parts and not believing the other, actually, no muslim is a muslim if he disbelieves in a single verse, therefore, its not as u said.
brother i advise you with a friendly advice, to at least take a look at our beliefs with an honest and unbiased view, the same as we are open to your beliefs and studying them.
and i invite you to the religion where we have faith & PROOF, and where god almighty orders you to worship him alone ONLY, and to think LOGICALLY about everything you get in islam, and you’ll notice that you’re not learning other than the true teachings of jesus and that when you become a muslim, you’ll feel really thats what jesus was teaching, to worship the almighty and only father(god).
and i invite you to take a look with your heart and mind at the glorious Holy Quran, which is the final revelation of god following the Torah and Bible, and give me a feedback of what your heart felt when you read whatever part you were curious about, maybe the ones related to virgin Mary(peace be upon her) and prophet Jesus(peace be upon him)!
here:
noblequran.com/translation/index.html
our beliefs:
islamtomorrow.com
D
DanteAlighieri
Guest
If this is the case, you should have no problem providing us with some links to reputable Christian scholars who agree with you that the Scriptures have, indeed, been altered or corrupted.
Peace,
Dante
I
IslamicBelief
Guest
OF COURSE! for example…this is the commentary about the gospel of Mark:
“Serious doubts exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark. They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark. His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost. (From the NIV Bible Foot Notes, page 1528)”
for more detailed information relating to this topic ‘corruption of the bible’…you can check the following links
authors of the gospels:
answering-christianity.com/authors_gospels.htm
answering-christianity.com/contra.htm
I invite everyone to read this article:
answering-christianity.com/trust_bible_or_quran.htm
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