Muslim objections to the Bible

[famdigy]

You cannot and should not see the Bible from the mentality of the Quran. They are not compatable. Someone has said that clearly and I thought he hit the nail on the head.

Now let get this straight:

The Bible IS the word of God. It is inspired in the sense that it is not written verbatim. There is no different in the two because both are word of God. Only that the Bible was not recorded as how the Quran was. The word of God is the word of God. One can’t really split hair on this otherwise we make God incapable and unable to transmit his word effectively. And that’s not the case as he said his word is like the snow and the rain that water the scorched dried earth and give life to the animals and the plants and that it will not return empty without achieving its purpose. The testimonies of believers throughout the ages confirmed this.

The author did not mix the message. I thought that was made clear. There really was no contradiction.

Ruben, I assure you that I don’t see Bible from the point of view of the Quran, at least not as far as this discussion is concerned.

I agree the seeming contradictions in the Bible are insignificant, and that they don’t impact your belief, and that the end result is the same, whether the fig tree was cursed before or after, the message is the same. I understand that and I’m not disputing it.

Lets get something straight, do you acknowledge the authors made mistakes in the historical details or not?

a very good example is when Jesus died, before the passover meal or after the passover meal?

Mark 14:12-17 says he was crucified on the daytime after the passover meal
John 13:1 says he was crucified before the passover meal

It can’t be both at the same time, he was either crucified before the meal or after the meal. There is a contradiction.

The problem I have is that you say the bible as a whole is the inspired word of God. This begs the question, are the contradictions regarding the timing of Jesus’ crucifixion also inspired by God? or is it mistakes of the author?

If the Bible as a whole is the inspired word of God, then God inspired Mark make a mistake on the timing of Jesus’ death. If the Mistake is from the author alone, then the bible as a whole is not the inspired word of God.

You can’t have it both ways, its either one or the other.

 

[ralphinal]

Ruben, I assure you that I don’t see Bible from the point of view of the Quran, at least not as far as this discussion is concerned.

I agree the seeming contradictions in the Bible are insignificant, and that they don’t impact your belief, and that the end result is the same, whether the fig tree was cursed before or after, the message is the same. I understand that and I’m not disputing it.

Lets get something straight, do you acknowledge the authors made mistakes in the historical details or not?

a very good example is when Jesus died, before the passover meal or after the passover meal?

Mark 14:12-17 says he was crucified on the daytime after the passover meal
John 13:1 says he was crucified before the passover meal

It can’t be both at the same time, he was either crucified before the meal or after the meal. There is a contradiction.

The problem I have is that you say the bible as a whole is the inspired word of God. This begs the question, are the contradictions regarding the timing of Jesus’ crucifixion also inspired by God? or is it mistakes of the author?

If the Bible as a whole is the inspired word of God, then God inspired Mark make a mistake on the timing of Jesus’ death. If the Mistake is from the author alone, then the bible as a whole is not the inspired word of God.

You can’t have it both ways, its either one or the other.

On the issue of the passover meal, there are several reasons why both are right.

1.) Jesus, as Lord of the Sabboth and God, could choose his own time for things. Therefore, in knowing that he would not be there for the passover while also knowing that he would offer himself as the Lamb, celebrated it a day before, while everyone else was waiting.

2.) The upper room was in the Essene part of Jerusalem. Jesus could have been following their calendar, which was different than the Pharasees.

These are the most likely, and it is probably both.

 

[utunumsint]

One and the same. However, the True Word of God is Jesus Christ

Well said.

famdigy, I believe the Islamic mentality is more in line with the fundamentalist Protestant belief in the innerancy of scripture and the concept that God transmitted every single word to a prophet, and the prophet only acts as a God’s scribe, writting everything down word for word.

For Jews, and Christians, God is a teacher who teaches his people through prophets in a progressive way. But he talks to his people where they are at. He talks to Abraham in his cultural context, and to Moses in his, then to Isaiah, and so on and so forth until we get to the time of Jesus.

Then the word became flesh. This is an important concept for you to understand. For Christians, God became man. He didn’t become a book. We don’t have one single written word from Jesus. He is the Word.

Through the relationship of the Gospel writters and the apostles to Christ, we have access to the word. Peter, the Gallilean, Matthew the tax collector, Luke the Greek, a disciple of Paul, Marc, most likely the son of Peter. All of them are either direct hearers of Jesus, or hearers of those who knew Jesus and taught his Gospel. Jesus comes to us through their words, filtered by their human experience. The word comes to us through human beings who had a relationship with a human being who was also God, and used different litterary generes to tell us things about that person, who is the word of God made flesh. They use narrative, sometimes they insert parts of their litturgy, some are theological, some are moral, some are exegetical. But all of them are products of human beings inspired by God through the Holy Spirit that has come into the world through the son.

Some people may see this as a weakness, but it is the very essense of Christianity. The all powerful, all knowing God, became man. Emptied himself and became like us, in order to draw us to him. Shared in our human weakness (except for sin) in order to deliver us from that weakness, and make us sharers in God’s divinity (a blasphemous thought for Islamic people and for Jews, but it is what we believe none the less).

God bless,
Ut

 

[dolphinlove]

I look forward to watching your conversion to Christianity on you tube fam!

 

[atheist1]

Either God can prevent man from messing up the words or he cannot.

Judging by the number of contradictions I suppose god was incapable of getting the story right.

For example, was Jarius’ daughter already dead or was she still alive but dying when Jarius approached Jesus?

This is a poor person to choose. He is not Christian and has an agenda against the faith.

Poisoning the well?

 

[jakasaki]

Judging by the number of contradictions I suppose god was incapable of getting the story right.

For example, was Jarius’ daughter already dead or was she still alive but dying when Jarius approached Jesus?

Poisoning the well?

All three acounts of Matthew chapter 9, Mark chapter 5 and Luke chapter 8 record the same. Nothing about **already dead **vs alive but dying. So what are you asking?

 

[atheist1]

All three acounts of Matthew chapter 9, Mark chapter 5 and Luke chapter 8 record the same. Nothing about **already dead **vs ****alive but dying. So what are you asking?

Matthew:

While he was saying these things to them, suddenly a leader of the synagogue came in and knelt before him, saying, ‘My daughter has just died; but come and lay your hand on her, and she will live.’ And Jesus got up and followed him, with his disciples… When Jesus came to the leader’s house and saw the flute-players and the crowd making a commotion, he said, ‘Go away; for the girl is not dead but sleeping.’ And they laughed at him. But when the crowd had been put outside, he went in and took her by the hand, and the girl got up. [Matthew 9:18-19, 23-25 (NRSV)]

Luke:

Just then there came a man named Jairus, a leader of the synagogue. He fell at Jesus’ feet and begged him to come to his house, for he had a daughter, about twelve years old, who was dying. As he went, the crowds pressed in on him… While he was still speaking, someone came from the leader’s house to say, ‘Your daughter is dead; do not trouble the teacher any longer.’ When Jesus heard this, he replied, ‘Do not fear. Only believe, and she will be saved.’ When he came to the house, he did not allow anyone to enter with him, except Peter, John, and James, and the child’s father and mother. They were all weeping and wailing for her; but he said, ‘Do not weep; for she is not dead but sleeping.’ And they laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. But he took her by the hand and called out, ‘Child, get up!’ Her spirit returned, and she got up at once. [Luke 8:41-42, 49-55a (NRSV)]

In one account the girl had already died and in the other the girl was dying.

 

[jakasaki]

In one account the girl had already died and in the other the girl was dying.

OK Mr. atheist… let’s try this again…

Luke 8:49
While He was still speaking, someone came from the house of the synagogue official, saying, “Your daughter has died;

Matthew 9:18
While He was saying these things to them, a synagogue official came and bowed down before Him, and said, “My daughter has just died;

Mark 5:35
While He was still speaking, they came from the house of the synagogue official, saying, “Your daughter has died;

LIke I said… all three accounts are the same.

You even posted it… the daughter is dead!

Quote: Originally Posted by Luke
Just then there came a man named Jairus, a leader of the synagogue. He fell at Jesus’ feet and begged him to come to his house, for he had a daughter, about twelve years old, who was dying. As he went, the crowds pressed in on him… While he was still speaking, someone came from the leader’s house to say, ‘Your daughter is dead;

 

[famdigy]

OK Mr. atheist… let’s try this again…

Luke 8:49
While He was still speaking, someone came from the house of the synagogue official, saying, “Your daughter has died;

Matthew 9:18
While He was saying these things to them, a synagogue official came and bowed down before Him, and said, “My daughter has just died;

Mark 5:35
While He was still speaking, they came from the house of the synagogue official, saying, “Your daughter has died;

LIke I said… all three accounts are the same.

You even posted it… the daughter is dead!

I believe what atheist1 is pointing to is regarding Jarius’ plea to Jesus. Mathew confirms the man said to Jesus my daughter is dead, while Luke gives us the impression his daughter was still alive.

 

[famdigy]

On the issue of the passover meal, there are several reasons why both are right.

1.) Jesus, as Lord of the Sabboth and God, could choose his own time for things. Therefore, in knowing that he would not be there for the passover while also knowing that he would offer himself as the Lamb, celebrated it a day before, while everyone else was waiting.

2.) The upper room was in the Essene part of Jerusalem. Jesus could have been following their calendar, which was different than the Pharasees.

These are the most likely, and it is probably both.

if you are talking about probability, historically we don’t have Mark’s or John’s first hand eye witness accounts, what we have are oral stories passed on from person to person to person for 60-80 years until finally they were written down by Greeks. The person(s) who wrote the accounts are not the eye witnesses to what happened that day, they only heard the stories for other people who also weren’t eye witnesses themselves. The most likely is that the stories morphed while being told from person to person, until finally it was written down, that’s probably why we see the the contradictions. The explanations you gave above didn’t make any sense by the way, probably both? so he celebrated passover before the actual date of the passover? that’s some creative interpretation

 

[jakasaki]

I believe what atheist1 is pointing to is regarding Jarius’ plea to Jesus. Mathew confirms the man said to Jesus my daughter is dead, while Luke gives us the impression his daughter was still alive.

Thanksgiving of 2008, my father was dying. We all knew it he was on his death bed for a long time.

He was suffering from Alzheimers and Parkinsons for 7 years with NO cures.

We informed all members of the family that dad was dying, and no one knows or knew his last day(s).

I now bring you to Thanksgiving of 2008.

My mom, me and my fiance (Matthew) were having a simple meal. Dad with with us in his Hospice bed about 20 feet from us. He went into a coma 2 weeks before Thanksgiving, so we knew.

We prayed, had a bite to eat, cleaned up and late that evening, Matt and I went home.

At 2am in the morning, mom called to say dad died.

So, people know when someone is dying and in the case of this Biblical passage, the man knew his daughter was dying, and did die.

It’s amazing that people want everything spelled out for them for every minute, play by play…!!!

Moral of the Biblical story is… the man knew his daughter was dying and she did while so much was going on!

 

[famdigy]

Moral of the Biblical story is… the man knew his daughter was dying and she did while so much was going on!

Sorry for your loss Deb, yes the moral of the story doesn’t change but the historical accounts are contradictory. We’re not disputing on the moral of the story, that much we agree, i’m not disputing on theology or philosophy, what we are disputing is the historical accounts.

One of your sisters said the historical accounts are insignificant and they don’t matter because they don’t change your belief. That’s fine because we’re not disputing your belief.

 

[atheist1]

I believe what atheist1 is pointing to is regarding Jarius’ plea to Jesus. Mathew confirms the man said to Jesus my daughter is dead, while Luke gives us the impression his daughter was still alive.

Yup…in one account Jarius’ daughter is already dead when Jarius approaches Jesus and in the other one I posted Jarius’ daughter is still alive but later dies.

 

[chrisse]

What an incredible display of nitpicking going on here with atheist1 and famdigy. If the best you’ve got is arguing semantics to disprove the Bible, give up you’ve lost the argument.

We have the same story told by three different people, directed at different people, after the event. The message of the story is the same, innocuous differences in details caused by different people relating the incident, do not diminish the message - that is, Jesus The Christ restored a girl to life, a miracle. Something tells me that it was this miracle that was uppermost on the minds of those present, and later told, not an anal exegesis of the event.

The three Gospels tell of a crowd of people gathering around Jesus. We are not told how many times Ja’irus approached Jesus. Possibly it was more than once, including a time before Ja’irus was told she was dead himself. Lazarus was another example where Jesus bided his time before He would miraculously restore the dead to life.

I would be more concerned if they were word for word the same with the incidentals, that would sound like collaboration not inspiration.

 

[atheist1]

What an incredible display of nitpicking going on here with atheist1 and famdigy. If the best you’ve got is arguing semantics to disprove the Bible, give up you’ve lost the argument.

It’s not semantics. One account says Jarius’ daughter is alive when he approached Jesus, the other account says the girl is already dead.

This was one example of many contradictions contained within the bible.

We have the same story told by three different people, directed at different people, after the event. The message of the story is the same, innocuous differences in details caused by different people relating the incident, do not diminish the message - that is, Jesus The Christ restored a girl to life, a miracle. Something tells me that it was this miracle that was uppermost on the minds of those present, and later told, not an anal exegesis of the event.

Don’t you believe the Holy Spirit inspired the authors who wrote the various books of scripture? If you do, how do you explain the various errors in scripture?

While the message of the fable is the same, the details are in direct contradiction with one another.

The three Gospels tell of a crowd of people gathering around Jesus. We are not told how many times Ja’irus approached Jesus. Possibly it was more than once, including a time before Ja’irus was told she was dead himself. Lazarus was another example where Jesus bided his time before He would miraculously restore the dead to life.

It’s possible to harmonize the two differing stories in the way you suggest but there is nothing in the text itself that suggest that was the case.

I would be more concerned if they were word for word the same with the incidentals, that would sound like collaboration not inspiration.

They needn’t be word for word accounts of the same event to not contradict each other. The simple fact is, the two accounts are contradictory in their details.

I have no problem with this but I believe the bible to be a purely human construction. I’m not sure how one squares divine inspiration of the scriptures with the various errors/contradictions contained within the text.

 

[Reuben_J]

famdigy:

if you are talking about probability, historically we don’t have Mark’s or John’s first hand eye witness accounts, what we have are oral stories passed on from person to person to person for 60-80 years until finally they were written down by Greeks. The person(s) who wrote the accounts are not the eye witnesses to what happened that day, they only heard the stories for other people who also weren’t eye witnesses themselves. The most likely is that the stories morphed while being told from person to person, until finally it was written down, that’s probably why we see the the contradictions. The explanations you gave above didn’t make any sense by the way, probably both? so he celebrated passover before the actual date of the passover? that’s some creative interpretation

I said you should not see the Bible from the Quran prism. There are many reasons for it apart from what being said, example, the message versus the word for word dictation.

Another, what you must always bear in mind is the action of the Holy Spirit, thus the inspiration, of guiding the writer when he put the words into writing. Ultimately of course it is the message that is most vital and important.

You’d not worry too much the fig tree was cursed before or after the clearing of the temple. The fact as narrated was that Jesus went to and forth to Jerusalem during the fateful last days of his life and he did curse the fig tree during one of that journey. The message is the cursing of the fig tree – you must bear fruit and if not you will be useless to be thrown out and be burnt, a teaching he espoused in John 15.

The inspiration of God (the Holy Spirit) prevents the Bible being ed useless or not useful. It is through this prism that we must see the Bible. It’s either you believe or you don’t. Thus nit-picking with insignificant difficulties as to the narrative will not help in understanding it.

Again, I don’t know with the Quran. There are some irregularities there that a non-Muslim might raise up but to the Muslims, I am sure you have explanation for them.

Thanks for your Endeavour in trying to go through this subject. You are one of those who are big enough to discuss subject like this without resorting to dishonesty. I am sure the other posters will generallysee that.

God bless.

p/s

… so whether the stories morphed or not, the final writing of the Bible was not in error but ‘God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work’.

If these are the purpose of the Bible then your objections will not affect any of them. And this is what we should see the Bible as it is.

 

[chrisse]

It’s not semantics. One account says Jarius’ daughter is alive when he approached Jesus, the other account says the girl is already dead.

This was one example of many contradictions contained within the bible.

Yes, it is semantics - it’s not a contradiction. In all 3 accounts, she was dead, and restored to life by Jesus. In one account, how Jarius approached Jesus is slightly different, a difference which can be explained by a different person’s account.

Don’t you believe the Holy Spirit inspired the authors who wrote the various books of scripture? If you do, how do you explain the various errors in scripture?

While the message of the fable is the same, the details are in direct contradiction with one another.

I know the authors were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write the Truth of the Word. I know the Holy Spirit did not dictate the Gospels.

It’s possible to harmonize the two differing stories in the way you suggest but there is nothing in the text itself that suggest that was the case.

Disagree, two accounts have Jarius saying she is dying, then Jarius is told by a member of his house or someone close that she is dead. The third account is shorter and going straight to the miracle. Just the writer’s choice of style. Perfectly within the boundaries of how the Gospels were written under inspiration of the Holy Spirit - to reveal the Truth of the Word.

They needn’t be word for word accounts of the same event to not contradict each other. The simple fact is, the two accounts are contradictory in their details.

I have no problem with this but I believe the bible to be a purely human construction. I’m not sure how one squares divine inspiration of the scriptures with the various errors/contradictions contained within the text.

They are not contradictory - one leave’s out part of the earlier interraction with Jesus. That’s not contradiction. He put the emphasis on the miracle itself, not the interractions leading to it.

Well, one does not judge Divine inspiration to reveal the Good News of the Word by petty nit-picking of incidentals. One does judge the Divine inspiration by the Good News itself.

atheist1, I understand you do not accept YHWH IS, but you are displaying desperation to use semantic differences in the writing style of the different authors of the Gospels in conveying the Good News, as the proof that the Bible is a “purely human construction”. We do not believe, nor ever stated, the Gospel’s exact wording was dictated.

 

[atheist1]

Well, one does not judge Divine inspiration to reveal the Good News of the Word by petty nit-picking of incidentals. One does judge the Divine inspiration by the Good News itself.

atheist1, I understand you do not accept YHWH IS, but you are displaying desperation to use semantic differences in the writing style of the different authors of the Gospels in conveying the Good News, as the proof that the Bible is a “purely human construction”. We do not believe, nor ever stated, the Gospel’s exact wording was dictated.

The text doesn’t support your attempt to justify the contradiction and it’s not nit picking to point out the discrepancy involved in the fable of Jarius’ daughter. The example of Jarius’ daughter was but one rather mild example of a contradiction, we can discuss others if you would like but you will simply be forced to write your own version of the varius fables in order to harmonize the various discrepancies contained within the text.

 

[Reuben_J]

Yes, it is semantics - it’s not a contradiction. In all 3 accounts, she was dead, and restored to life by Jesus. In one account, how Jarius approached Jesus is slightly different, a difference which can be explained by a different person’s account.

I know the authors were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write the Truth of the Word. I know the Holy Spirit did not dictate the Gospels.

Disagree, two accounts have Jarius saying she is dying, then Jarius is told by a member of his house or someone close that she is dead. The third account is shorter and going straight to the miracle. Just the writer’s choice of style. Perfectly within the boundaries of how the Gospels were written under inspiration of the Holy Spirit - to reveal the Truth of the Word.

They are not contradictory - one leave’s out part of the earlier interraction with Jesus. That’s not contradiction. He put the emphasis on the miracle itself, not the interractions leading to it.

Well, one does not judge Divine inspiration to reveal the Good News of the Word by petty nit-picking of incidentals. One does judge the Divine inspiration by the Good News itself.

atheist1, I understand you do not accept YHWH IS, but you are displaying desperation to use semantic differences in the writing style of the different authors of the Gospels in conveying the Good News, as the proof that the Bible is a “purely human construction”. We do not believe, nor ever stated, the Gospel’s exact wording was dictated.

Chrisse, I think you have explained it very well. I am thinking maybe I was not clear enough but yours is definitely clearer.

Ultimately this will be about whether one believes or not. As a small child I thought the tragedy in the Bible was when Jesus eventually couldn’t save himself and died on the cross.

Forget about atheist1, he does not believe. Like me when I did not know my faith, the Bible was just a story book. So it’s no different to him now.

But famdigy is another matter. He is a believer, eventhough not a Christian. If you’re reasonable enough he may accept your reason even if he disagrees with you; himself being a believer in God.

 

[famdigy]

In one account, how Jarius approached Jesus is slightly different, a difference which** can be explained by a different person’s account**.

According to Christian Belief, wasn’t that account which is different inspired by God? if that is so then why didn’t God take time to make sure that account is in line with the rest?, why didn’t God protect the writer from making that mistake. The difference doesn’t change anything in the message, I get it, really. But why is there a difference at all if it was Divinely inspired?

John Mill, was the first person to print and publish the bible when the printing press was invented. When John set out to print the Bible, he came across many different manuscripts of the Bible, each manuscript contradicted the other, and so the problem for John was that he didn’t know which manuscript to print. So what he did was to print the bible, and then attach footnotes at the bottom of the page listing the differences between the manuscript.

Wikipedia quotes
“Mill’s work noted over 30,000 discrepancies between some 100 extant New Testament manuscripts. His work was attacked by Daniel Whitby and Anthony Collins. Whitby’s Examen claimed that Mill had destroyed the validity of the text; Collins received a reply from Bentley (Phileleutherus lipsiensis). Bentley defended Mill noting essentially that Mill was not responsible for the differences between the various MSS, he only pointed them out. Bentley further noted that Christendom had indeed survived despite the errors, essentially asserting that Whitby’s attacks were unfounded”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mill

The question again, why did God allow for 30,000 discrepancies in his Inspired word?
this begs the second question, if God allowed for 30,000 discrepancies between the NT manuscripts, how do you know that the manuscripts themselves didn’t contain errors, additions, or omissions in the message?

Because after all, we don’t have any of the originals of the NT books, what we have are copies of copies of copies. If a mistake was made in the first copy, that mistake is carried on by the 2nd copy, and then a few more mistakes are added and copied again in a 3rd copy and so on and so forth.