Muslim Population Growth

  • Thread starter Thread starter OrganistForGod
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
That was a really SCARY video

My thoughts are if this is absolutely true, then there needs to be some serious actions taken!
 
The narrator’s voice is annoying. He sounds like the narrator for a forensic crime documentary.

Low fertility rates reduce population, but fertility rates change frequently; the US fertility rate in 1935 was 2.0, in 1955 it was 3.7, in 1975 it was 1.8. Right now it is 2.0 again. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#United_States) If you liked, you could say that the US is now at 1935 fertility levels, and you’d be correct. So no, fertility rates are hardly something that are set in stone.

The narrator says that population reductions are “impossible to reverse”, and that any attempt at reversal would take multiple generations, but this is quite obviously untrue. It would take only a single generation of high fertility to cause a population boom (just like the Baby Boom here in the US). I’m not sure the narrator understands how fertility rates actually work.

Anyway, all that being said, it is true that there needs to be 2.3 children per couple in order to maintain a society’s existing population size. (2 children to replace the 2 parents when they die, and then the additional .3 to account for things like infant mortality). It’s also true that about half the countries in the world have fertility rates below the 2.3 figure. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_fertility_rate) The European Union does have one of the lowest fertility rates, at 1.9. However, one should also keep in mind that economic downturns tend to decrease birth rates (nobody wants to have a baby when the economy’s in the dump), so once the economy improves we will probably see the birth rates there increase as well.

The video gets its facts completely wrong when it says that Muslim countries have a fertility rate of 8.1. That’s not just wrong, that’s mindblowingly wrong. Taking the fertility rates of the 10 most highly populated Muslim-majority countries gives an average rate of 2.99. (Only three of the countries had a rate higher than 3.0, and the highest was 5.32. I calculated these numbers based on this and this and can show my calculations if anyone is actually interested in it.) In fact, according to the UN, the CIA World Factbook, and the World Bank, no country AT ALL on earth has a birth rate as high as 8.1. Ten minutes on google would put an end to so many conspiracy theories.

Most Muslim immigrants entering France are coming from former French colonial countries (e.g. Algeria, Morocco, etc.), so France’s Muslim population is rising much more than countries who have never had Muslim-majority colonies. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_France) In a way, France’s culture-clash troubles with Islam today are a result of its imperialist history coming back to haunt it. The total Muslim population in France is about 10%, so it’s not like they’re on the brink of overrunning the country or some such.

Only 5% of the population of the Netherlands is Muslim, so I am extremely skeptical of the movie’s claim that 50% of all newborns there are born to Islamic families. It’s true that the percentage of Muslims in the UK is growing startlingly quickly, but they are still less than 5% of of the total population, so once again it’s not like they’re on the verge of taking over. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom) Also, the majority of Muslims who move to the UK or Europe tend to become Anglicized or Europeanized and are a good deal more liberal than their counterparts in, say, Iran.

Long story short, most of the video’s population “facts” are either extremely exaggerated or completely wrong, and the narrator seems to have put more effort into practicing his “scary voice” than actually researching.
 
Islamophobic rubbish… A few things:

-Any video that says that “Muslims are taking over the world” loses virtually all it’s credibility because it is clearly a polemic, and will distort facts to make a point. In this case, a xenophobic point.
-The statistics on the historical survival of culture are made moot by the fact that we now live in a globalized, information technology, connected society. We have no idea how these factors will affect the development of “culture.”
-On the same token, we have no idea how the rising population of the WORLD will affect culture… Given the earth’s failing ability to sustain us, I think we have bigger problems. Which leads me to my next point…
-The Church survives and grew as a persecuted minority amidst pagans for 300 years. So relax. God’s got our back, and he’s got it without us having to become xenophobic maniacs.

My two cents. And to the poster who said that something has to be done… What exactly do you propose?? I can imagine nothing but evil coming from a fearful response to this problem (a “problem” that I believe is largely exaggerated by this video anyway).
 
Suraya,

What collection of Hadith are you drawing these from?

Do you honestly believe that your average Muslim intends or wants to invade Rome?

And I remain unconcerned, mostly because of the 4th bullet point I posted.

I’m also unconcerned because as a Christian I don’t lend predictions in the Hadith much credence.
 
Suraya said:
Islam is islam whether you want it you want or not. My people have been persecuted numerous times under that false reigion, so I know very well what it is about.

This video shows what Middle-eastern/Arab christians (who lived or still live in the Middle-East) think about islam (not necessarily individual muslims):
youtube.com/watch?v=hfXE-_wxsCM&feature=related

I’m not here to scare anybody, but again Islam is Islam no matter what you want to think.
Click to expand...
Islam is Islam, Muslims are Muslims… Is Christianity Christianty? Are the sick men from the Westboro Baptist Church who scream hate and defile the funerals of my fallen brothers and my country’s fallen sons the same as the faithful Christians who endure persecution? Are the Catholics who raped and murdered the natives of America the same as the Catholics who today preach peace and social justice for minorities? Are these truly fair statements?

Edit- you also didn’t tell me which Hadith collection you got those from. I’m sincerely curious and would like to research them.
 
IbnFiktur said:
Islam is Islam, Muslims are Muslims… Is Christianity Christianty? Are the sick men from the Westboro Baptist Church who scream hate and defile the funerals of my fallen brothers and my country’s fallen sons the same as the faithful Christians who endure persecution? Are the Catholics who raped and murdered the natives of America the same as the Catholics who today preach peace and social justice for minorities? Are these truly fair statements?

Edit- you also didn’t tell me why Hadith collection you got those from. I’m sincerely curious and would like to research them.
Click to expand...
Look, if you want to know what islam is, then just read the quran (in arabic since it’s apparently the only language that is valid) and the hadith (samething, in arabic).
If you want to know where I get my sources, watch father Zacharias Botros videos on Youtube.

And by the way, islam conquered through the sword in the beginning and still does. There is no love in it like there is in Christianity. And please stop making Christianity sound like it’s on par with islam. The real christians are those who follow the Gospel of Christ (love, humility, forgiveness, etc.) whereas real muslims are those who keep in line with the teachings of Mohammed (Islamic law, hatred of Christianity, etc).

True islam is routed in politics. In reality, it is an ideology and if you really want to experience it, go live in the Middle-East. I know since I come from over there.

edit: In the video that posted in my previous post, it tells you why good Muslims don’t behave like the extremist (Islamists).
 
Suraya said:
Look, if you want to know what islam is, then just read the quran (in arabic since it’s apparently the only language that is valid) and the hadith (samething, in arabic).
If you want to know where I get my sources, watch father Zacharias Botros videos on Youtube.

And by the way, islam conquered through the sword in the beginning and still does. There is no love in it like in Christianity. And please stop making Christianity sound like it’s on par with islam. The real christians are those who follow the Gospel of Christ (love, humility, forgiveness, etc.) whereas real muslims are those who keep in line with the teachings of Mohammed (Islamic law, hatred of Christianity, etc).
Click to expand...
I have read the Qur’an both in English and in Arabic. I do not believe it is authentic scripture; I am a Catholic Christian.

I am also not trying to put Islam and Christianity on the same level. What I am saying is that we should judge Muslims not on the atrocities committed by SOME believers (our own list of atrocities is far too long to try to do that).

Islam did spread by the sword. Christianity spread in spite of persecution. This is why I believe Christianity to be the true faith, and why I KNOW that we have nothing to fear, from Muslims (who by and large are good, loving people) or anyone else.

What I am urging for is FAITH in God, HOPE which keeps us from falling into fear, and CHARITY because we will not allow fear to drive us to hate and xenophobia.

These are Christian virtues and I should hope we can practice them in spite of polemics about “Muslims taking over the world.”

Blessings to your friends and family, and all persecuted Christians.

Edit- still waiting on what collection you got those Hadith out of 🙂
 
I would have to agree in part with the poster Suraya. Islam is primarily concerned with becoming the dominant force, no matter what country or culture it is found in. This is happening in Ireland as well. And it is worrying that the Islamic population has doubled here in the past 10 years. I spoke to Muslims here in Dublin who want to have Sharia Law as Irish state Law.

I sincerely believe that Islam is a false religion and also not a force for good in the world.
 
Here’s the problem. Unlike Christianity, Islam’s idea of God’s kingdom is to make the world submit to Islamic law, which is very brutal against non-Muslims. Jesus basically said that if people refuse the gospel, God will judge them. In Islam the world has to be made to submit to allah. If you look at the history of Islam you will realize a crusade in the future in inevitable if you want to survive and not be a dhimmi.
 
InJesusItrust said:
Here’s the problem. Unlike Christianity, Islam’s idea of God’s kingdom is to make the world submit to Islamic law, which is very brutal against non-Muslims. Jesus basically said that if people refuse the gospel, God will judge them. In Islam the world has to be made to submit to allah. If you look at the history of Islam you will realize a crusade in the future in inevitable if you want to survive and not be a dhimmi.
Click to expand...
I don’t think this is necessarily true. I think in order to prevent Islam from spreading in the west we need to strengthen Catholicism in the west while also sending missions to Islamic countries. This is working on some levels as some Islamic countries are becoming gradually more liberal in the enforcement of certain laws regarding evangelisation.
 
AdamPeter said:
I don’t think this is necessarily true. I think in order to prevent Islam from spreading in the west we need to strengthen Catholicism in the west while also sending missions to Islamic countries. This is working on some levels as some Islamic countries are becoming gradually more liberal in the enforcement of certain laws regarding evangelisation.
Click to expand...
+1 👍

A successful mission in the Islamic world will require much greater charity toward Muslims and knowledge/understanding of Islam in all its complexity and diversity. Those things are severely lacking in the West and Christendom in general. I believe JP II got us well on our way, but we have a long way to go.
 
Suraya said:
Now now, I’m not attacking Muslims :tsktsk:. I have many Muslims friends and feel sorry for them for being trapped in that religion where they are restricted on so many things, the biggest being Christ himself (they’re not aloud to read the Bible :eek:, though some have probably already done that against the teachings of their religion). One of my friends even wants the Ottoman empire to return to it’s former glory 🤷, and no I’m not joking. Though it’s true that it doesn’t make him or the other Muslims evil. I know a lot of nice Muslims and I’m not telling people to discriminate against them.

What I want people to know is that islam wants to conquer (Europe being it’s most wanted place) which is not even close to a religion of peace, and NO that is NOT xenophobic. I’m Middle-eastern myself. Islam is really an ideology and again, you DON’T know what it is if you haven’t lived under it’s rules (political islam). You have to understand that I get my knowledge from a place where islam has a firm grip upon, and many suffered under it and there are who still do.

:gopray2: Jesus Christ, son of the beloved Father, please help Muslims turn into Christians and find refuge in you. Please also protect those Christians who are persecuted under islam in the Middle-East and all over the world. :signofcross:
Click to expand...
You are correct Political Islam (Sharia) is linked with the actual practice of the Religion.

The social aspects are all linked to the practice of the faith which is why it seeks to establish a government wherever it has a population.
 
IbnFiktur said:
+1 👍

A successful mission in the Islamic world will require much greater charity toward Muslims and knowledge/understanding of Islam in all its complexity and diversity. Those things are severely lacking in the West and Christendom in general. I believe JP II got us well on our way, but we have a long way to go.
Click to expand...
This is true, however I hesitate to confuse charity toward the Islamic world as charity toward the adherents of the faith.

There are many Muslims in Ireland who enjoy the freedoms of western democracy. I would not enjoy the same in their countries. We need to send the message that democratic nations will oppose persecution in Islamic nations.
 
Suraya,

Thank you for your thoughtful post 🙂 You have an increibly valuable perspective. What concerns me is that you refer to Islam as one thing which means the same thing to all Muslims, and had meant the same thing throughout its history. This is simply not the case.

Interesting historical tidbit… As part of my research on early Islam, I used Syrian Christian sources (among others). These Christians (Jacobites, I’m sure you’re familiar with the term) welcomed the Muslims as preferable overlords to the Christian Byzantines.

I know many Muslims, and they all have different takes on the past, present, and future of Islam and Muslims. “Political Islam,” then, means something different to different people with different interpretations of Islam. There are, for instance, Islamic modernists as a political force in some Muslim nations.

Touching on the point that AdamPeter made on the previous page… Something that is often overlooked and blatantly ignored in this video is that the “invader’s” culture is inevitably transformed by the “conquered people’s” culture. I wrote my honors thesis on this topic, though it was on jurisprudence, not culture. Regardless, the fact is that massive Muslim immigration to the West is going to change Islam as much as it will change the West… If not more, given the West’s cultural hegemony. If you watch an Arab music video, for instance, you will note the imitation of Western culture in many ways.

The defense of our faith, then, must come from great love and understanding, and a strengthening of our own faith and principles. To this end our enemy is not Islam. It is the clear evil within our own culture of death. This is why the Holy Father seeks dialogue with Islam, not antagonism, and a culture war against modern evils within the West.
 
IbnFiktur said:
Suraya,

Thank you for your thoughtful post 🙂 You have an increibly valuable perspective. What concerns me is that you refer to Islam as one thing which means the same thing to all Muslims, and had meant the same thing throughout its history. This is simply not the case.

Interesting historical tidbit… As part of my research on early Islam, I used Syrian Christian sources (among others). These Christians (Jacobites, I’m sure you’re familiar with the term) welcomes the Muslims as preferable overlords to the Christian Byzantines.

I know many Muslims, and they all have different takes on the past, present, and future of Islam and Muslims. “Political Islam,” then, means something different to different people with different interpretations of Islam. There are, for instance, Islamic modernists as a political force in some Muslim nations.

Touching on the point that AdamPeter made on the previous page… Something that is often overlooked and blatantly ignored in this video is that the “invader’s” culture is inevitably transformed by the “conquered people’s” culture. I wrote my honors thesis on this topic, though it was on jurisprudence, not culture. Regardless, the fact is that massive Muslim immigration to the West is going to change Islam as much as it will change the West… If not more, given the West’s cultural hegemony. If you watch an Arab music video, for instance, you will note the imitation of Western culture I’m many ways.

The defense of our faith, then, must come from great love and understanding, and a strengthening of our own faith and principles. To this end our enemy is not Islam. It is the clear evil within our own culture of death. This is why the Holy Father seeks dialogue with Islam, not antagonism, and a culture war against modern evils within the West.
Click to expand...
I had not thought of this perspective before. Actually, It’s a fair point…a friend of mine made a film about ten years ago for Film Four which was about a Pakistani Muslim family in England and the fact that the Parents were strictly Muslim but the children wanted to identify themselves as “British”.

The film is called “East is East” it’s worth a watch. It does highlight your point about integration as opposed to Islam changing the culture.
 
AdamPeter said:
I had not thought of this perspective before. Actually, It’s a fair point…a friend of mine made a film about ten years ago for Film Four which was about a Pakistani Muslim family in England and the fact that the Parents were strictly Muslim but the children wanted to identify themselves as “British”.

The film is called “East is East” it’s worth a watch. It does highlight your point about integration as opposed to Islam changing the culture.
Click to expand...
I appreciate the open-mindedness 🙂

I’d like to note that I am especially passionate on the topic of Islamophobia and misunderstandings and generalizations regarding Islam because if Islamophibia exists and if Muslims feel marginalized or persecuted in the West, they will be DISCOURAGED from integrating into society, because society won’t accept them!

The thing I am most afraid of is that FEAR will foster an unwillingness to accept and understand Muslims and their faith, thus dooming peace between faiths and the peaceful integration of Muslims into our societies.

It is for this reason that I have ~60 posts despite having been actively posting on this forum for about three days 😉 there is simply a lot of misinformation and generalization.

Edit- apologies for the frequent typos, posting from an iPhone. :o editing them out best I can
 
IbnFiktur said:
I appreciate the open-mindedness 🙂

I’d like to note that I am especially passionate on the topic of Islamophobia and misunderstandings and generalizations regarding Islam because if Islamophibia exists and if Muslims feel marginalized or persecuted in the West, they will be DISCOURAGED from integrating into society, because society won’t accept them!

The thing I am most afraid of is that FEAR will foster an unwillingness to accept and understand Muslims and their faith, thus dooming peace between faiths and the peaceful integration of Muslims into our societies.

It is for this reason that I have ~60 posts despite having been actively posting on this forum for about three days 😉 there is simply a lot of misinformation and generalization.

Edit- apologies for the frequent typos, posting from an iPhone. :o editing them out best I can
Click to expand...
In relation to Islam and integration…Unfortunately I think I’s more likely that this is going the other way and we will need governments to stand up to this in the years to come.

My father is Muslim and I’m quite well versed in the Islamic faith. It cannot be passed off as a religion of peace. We need to understand that in order to evangelize.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top