Muslim prostration in prayer taken from Christians

[rien]

Philip Jenkins has a new book out titled the Lost History of Christianity. it has to do with the disappearance of Christianity from Africa, the Middle East and the East.

In a great interview he gave to CWR he talks about no one talking about the “theology of extinction”. How religions disappear as his book is about.

In any case things Muslims got from Chritians according to Jenkins:

Prostration in prayer; prayer a certain number of times/day; almsgiving; fasting, pilgrimage; a declaration of faith.

Interesting as some Catholic schools are teaching children to pray in a prostate position and this has been called out by some traditionalists as Islam creeping into Catholocism.

But according to Jenkins this originated with Chritians and Muslims were slow to embrace it - finding it degrading.

I recall reading about some Oriental Chritians who to this day pray exactly like Muslims - prostating themselves. Giving credence to the claim this is a long abandoned Christian practice.

BTW, some of the Eastern and Oriental churches sit men on one side and women on the other during services. Like Muslims today. So it is not a stretch to think that too may have been the original Chritian practice.

One thing - that the first Chritians prayed a specific number of times/day - like the Muslims pray 5 times/day today. Does anyone have any info on this? I have not bought the book yet and I don’t know if Jenkins goes into that but I’d like more details.

Also, organized fast - as in Lent - was the imspiration for Ramadan says Jenkins.

It is interesting that Christians have basically given up all these ancient practices. Even fasting is today sort of an aftethought at best having been jettisoned in its more organized form by Vatican 2 and earlier by the Reformers.

I’d add that Muslims pray facing Mecca. Early Christians prayed facing East or to Jerusalem and even built their churches oriented in a certain direction up until recent centuries when that practice has been totally abandoned.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Did Jenkins not ever study Judaism?

For Jews pray at certain times of the day–three times. And Jews face a particular direction. Early in Islam, Muslims actually faced Jerusalem as well, and then the direction was changed.

You see, it might ease one’s mind to declare that Islam is born out of Christianity, but Islam, and Christianity, and Judaism all have the same root. Why? They are all from the same source–the Almighty. It’s time to acknowledge that.

 

[rien]

Did Jenkins not ever study Judaism?

For Jews pray at certain times of the day–three times. And Jews face a particular direction. Early in Islam, Muslims actually faced Jerusalem as well, and then the direction was changed.

You see, it might ease one’s mind to declare that Islam is born out of Christianity, but Islam, and Christianity, and Judaism all have the same root. Why? They are all from the same source–the Almighty. It’s time to acknowledge that.

Jenkins book is about the disappearance, total, of Christianity from areas where it was once common for a long time. No doubt some of the Jewish practices like prayers at certain number of times a day went over to Christianity. But Chritianity has abandoned much of its early practices. They are still carried on by some Oriental Chritian churches but a tiny remnant

Ironically these early Chritian practices are carried forward today worldwide only in Islam.

Back to a question, did Christians pray de fide a certain number of times/day in the early church? Like Jews and Muslims do to this day.

 

[bpcatholic]

 

[Patrick1982]

Orthoxox Christians make prostrations all the time. We fast about half the year, there’s nothing lost about it- and we’re not quite “remnants” yet! Yes, the Muslims did get it from us. Coptic Christians take their shoes off in church as well.

 

[Reuben_J]

Prostrating, kneeling, standing … various postures while praying are not uncommon and should not be confined to a particular religion or practice. Not just Middle Eastern but Orientals do have various postures as well while praying. The outward posture reflects an inward expression / disposition that one has while praying. How one express that depends to a great extends the influence of culture and maybe mannerism of certain race and people.

Prostrating in prayer was very common in the OT. Some of these have been carried over to modern day Christianity and I guess there is nothing wrong with that. It is nice to see priests really prostrate themselves at Good Friday services or during their ordinations. Sure there are many Christians who believe that one does not have to do anything as long as the prayer is from the heart but we are humans and being so we do have gestures and expression to reflect what we have in our hearts. There is a tribe who shake their heads when saying ‘no’. How about that?

I have this experience in wedding masses where invariably you would have non-Catholic guests. The commentator usually takes pain to tell everybody that non-Catholics do not have to kneel at the consecration and so on.

So I don’t think it is correct to say Muslims inherit prostration from Christians exclusively. They might but I thought prostration is quite natural concept for Middle Eastern people.

 

[Reuben_J]

There is a tribe who shake their heads when saying ‘no’. How about that?

Correction. That was when saying ‘yes’.

So you ask a girl for date and if she shakes her head, go and rejoice!

 

[emarc]

Did Jenkins not ever study Judaism?

For Jews pray at certain times of the day–three times. And Jews face a particular direction. Early in Islam, Muslims actually faced Jerusalem as well, and then the direction was changed.

You see, it might ease one’s mind to declare that Islam is born out of Christianity, but Islam, and Christianity, and Judaism all have the same root. Why? They are all from the same source–the Almighty. It’s time to acknowledge that.

this is the first time i ever heard this acknowledgment coming from a muslim, and i’m happy to hear it. what puzzles me is why some factions of islam vehemently want to wipe out the jews from the face of the earth when both worship the same God. why they call the jews pigs, descendants of monkeys, etc. God is love but hearing their vitriolics, one wonders what god they worship. i still have to hear any muslim say we love the jews, our true brothers and sisters worshipping the same God. hope it’ll not be long.
God bless.

 

[dzheremi]

I have that book and found it to be very good. The “lost” history of Christianity is something that is much interest to me. Christianity in North Africa, for instance, seems like something of an unknown quantity outside of Egypt. It isn’t so, but it does take a bit of digging to find it. It’s worth it, though. If I had my druthers, I would probably turn my linguistics degree into something more applicable to study of ancient near eastern languages so as to be able to more effectively study such things…anyway, on this topic, I pretty much agree with Sister Amy (though I’m not sure how much shared ritual can be taken as evidence of divine origin). It is interesting, perhaps, as a historical fact, but to read too much into it would be silly.

 

[Chancellare]

One thing - that the first Chritians prayed a specific number of times/day - like the Muslims pray 5 times/day today. Does anyone have any info on this? I have not bought the book yet and I don’t know if Jenkins goes into that but I’d like more details.

If Muslims pray 5 times per day, Catholics still pray 7 times a day in the liturgy of the hours:

Vespers
Matins
Lauds,
Terce
Sext
None
Prime.

 

[bpbasilphx]

**
One thing - that the first Chritians prayed a specific number of times/day - like the Muslims pray 5 times/day today. Does anyone have any info on this? I have not bought the book yet and I don’t know if Jenkins goes into that but I’d like more details.**

Where do you think the Divine Office (Liturgy of the Hours) came from but the custom of praying several times a day?

**Also, organized fast - as in Lent - was the imspiration for Ramadan says Jenkins.

It is interesting that Christians have basically given up all these ancient practices. Even fasting is today sort of an aftethought at best having been jettisoned in its more organized form by Vatican 2 and earlier by the Reformers.**

Not Eastern Christians–Orthodox or Catholic. We fast and abstain quite strictly, in a way that was followed only by the strictest Monastic orders in the West.

 

[bpbasilphx]

You see, it might ease one’s mind to declare that Islam is born out of Christianity, but Islam, and Christianity, and Judaism all have the same root. Why? They are all from the same source–the Almighty. It’s time to acknowledge that.

**Actually, Mahomet (plbt) was a renegade Nestorian clergyman who was deceived by an inferior demon pretending to be the Archangel Gabriel.

I don’t know if his psycho-sexual disorder that led to his having sex with a 9 year old girl was the cause of his delusion or the result of it.

In any case, Mahomet’s (ptuy) body rots in Medina.

Jesus, on the other hand, conquered death and ascended into heaven by His own power as God.

Isa akbar!
*
Isa akbar!*

ISA AKBAR!

I bear witness there is NO GOD but Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and Jesus is God Incarnate risen from the dead.**

 

[Muslim_Woman]

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Salaam/peace

… want to wipe out the jews from the face of the earth

they hate Zionists , not the ordinary Jews. In Quran , Jews & Christians are referred as people of the holy books.

why they call the jews pigs, descendants of monkeys, etc.

it’s wrong to say so . During the time of Prophet David (p), some Jews disobeyed God & broke the law of Sabath .

God punish only those sinners , turned them in to apes. They all died after few days. This story is mentioned in Quran. It does not say that Jews came from ape or monkeys etc.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

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Salaam/peace

… Yes, the Muslims did get it from us. .

and Christians got it from …???

Muslims believe Torah , Bible , Quran --all came from the same source - God Almighty . So , it’s natural that many things are common among us.

 

[Eucharisted]

Actually, prostrartion is from Judaism, and Christianity adopted it. Prostration, in general, goes way back, perhaps even before Judaism. Islam adopted the manner from Judaism.

 

[emarc]

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Salaam/peace

they hate Zionists , not the ordinary Jews. In Quran , Jews & Christians are referred as people of the holy books.

it’s wrong to say so . During the time of Prophet David (p), some Jews disobeyed God & broke the law of Sabath .

God punish only those sinners , turned them in to apes. They all died after few days. This story is mentioned in Quran. It does not say that Jews came from ape or monkeys etc.

would you agree God only has the Omniscience to judge one’s heart? why do muslims judge the jews? how long before we hear muslims shout that jews are their brothers and sisters and they’ll not wipe them out from the face of the earth? how long???
God bless.

 

[inJESUS]

Yes yes, everything from fasting to prostration to praying for the dead were known and practiced before Muhammad, no surprise, as he was surrounded by both Jewish and Christian sects, most of which were Judaizers (Gnostics, Ebionites) and hence their reliance on Jewish customs mingled with some Christian belief, and hence the dominance of Jewish customs in Islamic rituals in addition to some christian beliefs. The reason why not all Christians do them is that they have to do with culture.

 

[meedo]

would you agree God only has the Omniscience to judge one’s heart? why do muslims judge the jews? how long before we hear muslims shout that jews are their brothers and sisters and they’ll not wipe them out from the face of the earth? how long???
God bless.

Mt grandmothers best friend was a jew . jews live now in Egypt, Morroco, Tunis, Iran, yemen. bahrain. they live also in turkey i many numbers.

Muslims came to have animosity feeling for jews currently mainly because the state of israel. I love jews who don’t opress other people . I have no problem with having a jew as my nrighbour as long as he does not support the state of israel.

I did not wish to dscuss politics in this thread but this is the truth.

Jews sought refuge in Muslim lands from the inquisition and were taken into morroco and the otthoman empire. If muslims didnt want jews to be , they wwould not have survived .

 

[meedo]

this is the first time i ever heard this acknowledgment coming from a muslim, and i’m happy to hear it.

what puzzles me is why some factions of islam vehemently want to wipe out the jews from the face of the earth when both worship the same God. why they call the jews pigs, descendants of monkeys, etc. God is love but hearing their vitriolics, one wonders what god they worship. i still have to hear any muslim say we love the jews, our true brothers and sisters worshipping the same God. hope it’ll not be long.
God bless.

1- Muslims have always acknowledged that. you just didnt research well. Especially for the jews.

2- There are some uneducated extremist who think Judaism is teh resposnible for The state of israel and the opression of the palestinains. If you only hear them hen you didnt research well as i said before.

3- I love non zionist Jews . I have no prblem living in a city full of them . My problem is the state of israel and not Judaism itself nor jews as a member of the faith group.

And as i said in a previous post. If muslims didnt want jews to servive they wouldnt have given them refuge many times during hardships.

hope i have clarified.

Meedo

 

[meedo]

Philip Jenkins has a new book out titled the Lost History of Christianity. it has to do with the disappearance of Christianity from Africa, the Middle East and the East.

In a great interview he gave to CWR he talks about no one talking about the “theology of extinction”. How religions disappear as his book is about.

In any case things Muslims got from Chritians according to Jenkins:

Prostration in prayer; prayer a certain number of times/day; almsgiving; fasting, pilgrimage; a declaration of faith.

Interesting as some Catholic schools are teaching children to pray in a prostate position and this has been called out by some traditionalists as Islam creeping into Catholocism.

But according to Jenkins this originated with Chritians and Muslims were slow to embrace it - finding it degrading.

I recall reading about some Oriental Chritians who to this day pray exactly like Muslims - prostating themselves. Giving credence to the claim this is a long abandoned Christian practice.

BTW, some of the Eastern and Oriental churches sit men on one side and women on the other during services. Like Muslims today. So it is not a stretch to think that too may have been the original Chritian practice.

One thing - that the first Chritians prayed a specific number of times/day - like the Muslims pray 5 times/day today. Does anyone have any info on this? I have not bought the book yet and I don’t know if Jenkins goes into that but I’d like more details.

Also, organized fast - as in Lent - was the imspiration for Ramadan says Jenkins.

It is interesting that Christians have basically given up all these ancient practices. Even fasting is today sort of an aftethought at best having been jettisoned in its more organized form by Vatican 2 and earlier by the Reformers.

I’d add that Muslims pray facing Mecca. Early Christians prayed facing East or to Jerusalem and even built their churches oriented in a certain direction up until recent centuries when that practice has been totally abandoned.

wishfull thinking