Muslim provoked thoughts on God, gods - God is not a deity?

[Semangelof]

Can you sense the “beingness” of God?

I’ll see if I can find a more defined answer but from scripture we have

1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Here he doesn’t say God has the characteristic of love, or he is in love, or God learned love, rather he says God is love.

and here.

Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

He doesn’t say I am fred, or I am fred from accounting or hey I’m a God and I do x. Here He shows himself to simply “Be”…who are you? response “I AM” I shudder when I think of how much power such a name declares. “I AM” means that He is in a state of constant and unalterable being. He is always love, that can never change.

The Euthyphro dilemma (4,5,6) also helps pan that out in a rational sense. I’m not a good writer so I’ll see if I can find some more rational explanations for you.

 

[Mount_Carmel]

Do you get these ideas from scripture? (If so, references not necessary. Just asking.) Or did God communicate this to you? Or did you just figure it out? Or did your parents tell you this and you believe them? or… where does one get an understanding like this? I know you said you don’t fully understand…but you have some general idea so I am wondering how you arrived at these ideas. In what way is God in your life? Can you experience, or somehow sense these characteristics? Can you sense the “beingness” of God?

‘Those ideas’, as you phrase it, come from all the sources you mention, and probably more.

Got has blessed me with an inciteful brain and much curiousity, and a life ‘rich’ in experience and incident. [In the exact words a university prof. put on one of my assignments - ‘you are obviously capable of complex thought and analysis’ - if God sees fit to give me ‘talents’, then as in the New Testament example, I should use them to good purpose.]

Oh, and yes, I can indeed sense/feel the pervading power of God - it is a warm and comforting feeling that bypasses and indeed if permitted [by the individual] shields and protects from most all negativity. I currently live alone, although I never actually feel alone - and no, it is not down to multiple personality issues. I have learned that anger and hatred of any person is so counter-productive - that my true home is in LOVE, and that since God is LOVE, God is my true home.

Interestingly when a professor some years back gave ‘we’ students packing out a large lecture theatre the Sheep and Goats test to do, I did not go the way of the ‘sheep’, nor did I score with the ‘goats’ - I was the only one to score 50:50.

 

[UntimelyBourn]

I think some things just exist. They just do. I think “wanting” an explanation for everything leads to the error known as theism. It seems to make people uncomfortable for there not to be an explanation for something so they make up an explanation and call it God.

To be quite honest, I find it hard to believe that anyone can actually be satisfied with this argument. If some things just exist, independent of causal forces, why is it that we have absolutely no evidence for this? Every observable thing we know of so far has had a beginning and an end, whether it’s a human life, the universe, time, all of it. To say something just exists and cannot be explained is to say that something is outside the natural order, that is, supernatural. If this is the case, what objection would you have to theism? If people were uncomfortable with the concept of there not being an explanation for something, why would they answer it by making up a god who has no explanation?

Whatever God is like, whether God is a personal deity, an invisible force, the universe itself, or any other way, I am of the opinion values can be/are independent. I base this on a pragmatic view of reality. Good and bad exist (in a sense), and t**here is nothing supernatural about good and bad, therefore, there is no need to bring a supernatural element into the equation. **

I believe morality is subjective.****

And other people (including myself) believe that morality is objective. The problem with this line of thinking is that if morality is subjective then we’re both neither right or wrong and your argument has no weight. Either morality is objectively subjective or morality is objectively objective. It’s a truth claim.

Would you claim that human rights are only subjective values? Or are things such as murder, torture, and rape objectively wrong? I suspect the later.

 

[samiam1611]

Wanting an explanation isn’t an error. Science is in the business of finding things out, it would seem odd to just stop wanting to know when it reached that point. Why would we try to learn all these things and then suddenly stop wanting an explanation for something so important?

Oh yeah, you’re right. That was poor choice of wording on my part. Let me try again.
I guess what I meant was I think not every question has an answer to “why.” And I think one ought to accept that some questions are unknowable as to “how” too. Investigation is good, very good, but we shouldn’t jump to conclusions or make things up. IMO opinion we should admit “we don’t know [yet]” if that is the case.
We don’t have to stop wondering and investigating what the explanation is but acknowledge we may never find a satisfactory explanation.

To just say “god did it” is called the God of the Gaps. To say “it just happened” would be called the “naturalism of the gaps”. Either would be unreasonable without some premise to show it rational or empirical.

Point taken on the naturalism of the gaps. I suppose I am guilty of that. While not empirically provable (as I said above, I don’t think everything can be explained ) SURELY you are not suggesting that “I don’t know why or how but I don’t think it a supernatural entity is the explanation” is irrational. Because that is my position and it is just an extended version of “it just happened.”

What ever started and effected the universe must therefore transcend the universe. Nothing and nothing can’t get together and make something. To answer the question with any answer other than God creates an infinite regress. An infinite regress is not an answer. Therefore it is discarded as irrational. Unless a third hypotheses is presented then God is the only rational answer.

A position I find intriguing although I can’t bring myself to actually believe it is pandeism.
“The creator of the universe actually became the universe, and so ceased to exist as a separate and conscious entity.”

Although there is more than one direction you can go with this, here is one way: God was the gravitational singularity. The gravitational singularity “blew up” in the Big Bang and became the stars etc. God was NOT the universe (was eternal and transcendent) but ceased to exist in that form when God blew itself up.
I talked to a pandeist one time and the way he described his beliefs was not like that though. So I guess that is my own invention. Anyway that is not the position I hold but just an idea I came up with that I think is one possibility.
Thoughts?

Forgive me for appearing to create a straw man but this is the actual and unfortunate reality of your statement. If there are no objective moral values and duties then hitler was not not wrong to do what he did, neither were those who followed him. Our subjective moral values and duties would have no jurisdiction on hitlers. Hitler created the law of his country based on his own subjective moral values and duties and thought he was doing the right thing by purging what he believed were undesirables. This line of thinking is untenable and doomed to plunge the world into destruction.

IMO wrong and right exist, but are subjective. Some things are more wrong than others. Some things are a mixture of good and bad. Some things are technically wrong, but understandable. Some things appear to be good on the surface but turn out to be bad.
Morality is not black and white - aka it is subjective. That is not the same thing as saying morality (right and wrong) do not exist.

 

[Aloysium]

What do you see when you look at the cross?
Here, a naked, powerless, ridiculous man in the most extreme pain
Do you see victory?
I do, go figure.

 

[Semangelof]

SURELY you are not suggesting that “I don’t know why or how but I don’t think it a supernatural entity is the explanation” is irrational. Because that is my position and it is just an extended version of “it just happened.”

I think it would be irrational to believe something arbitrarily, and I don’t suggest that you do.

**1)**A position I find intriguing although I can’t bring myself to actually believe it is pandeism.
“The creator of the universe actually became the universe, and so ceased to exist as a separate and conscious entity.”

**2)**Although there is more than one direction you can go with this, here is one way: God was the gravitational singularity. The gravitational singularity “blew up” in the Big Bang and became the stars etc. God was NOT the universe (was eternal and transcendent) but ceased to exist in that form when God blew itself up.
I talked to a pandeist one time and the way he described his beliefs was not like that though. So I guess that is my own invention. Anyway that is not the position I hold but just an idea I came up with that I think is one possibility.
Thoughts?

1. There is a religion based on this premise called Gnosticim. There are several variations under that category, including one frightening one called the cainites.
2. Why would this god blow himself up rather than create? Also this god would be impotent, dead even. This god also does not appear infinite. Unless the god is in a state of being then the question “who created this god” can arise, or an infinite regress. I don’t mean that your god is impossible, just that it does not show it self more rational. You said correctly that we can not know all things. At some point, due to lack of suitable conclusive proof we have to make a rational decision…“which possibility is more rational?”

However, in the case of the actual God we can know Him not just believe in him through rationale. He tells us

Revelation 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

When Jesus says open the door He means to dwell within you.

A Christian is filled with the Spirit of God and that Spirit reveals God to us where our limitations do not allow. It allows us to actually experience God, personally.

1 Corinthians 2:10these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.c 14The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

I can lead you to rationally believe that a God exists, but I cannot show Him to you. However we are all invited to know Him personally. He knocks on all our hearts, all we have to do is willingly let Him in. He is yours if you want Him. You will not find him in a telescope or a science book because He is at the front door of your heart at this very moment asking you to let Him in.

 

[samiam1611]

Why would this god blow himself up rather than create?

Well when I say blow up I don’t mean like a bomb blowing stuff up, I mean like the first moments of the universe after the Big Bang, when matter came to be. So it is creation, but not in a “I’m going to make a planet suitable for life and put the sun over there and the moon over there” kind of way. I mean it in a rapid expansion kind of way. Does that make sense?

According to one pandeist, “Pandeism proposes that our Creator preceded our Universe, and that it designed and created our Universe; the method of Creation was becoming.”
I cannot support or defend the “designed and created” part of that statement, because it signifies intelligence IOW is anthropomorpic. But I do find the idea of “the method of creation was becoming” somewhat agreeable.

Also this god would be impotent, dead even.

Yes that is the point. It is almost, (not quite) like positive atheism only instead of saying “God doesn’t exist” it says “God doesn’t exist anymore.”

Please note I am kind of making this up as I go along. A thought experiment you might say, as opposed to a statement of my beliefs. Also note that I don’t think a pandeist would agree with the statement “God doesn’t exist anymore.” I am just sort of using the definition of pandeism as inspiration.

This god also does not appear infinite.
Unless the god is in a state of being then the question “who created this god” can arise, or an infinite regress.

I suppose.

I don’t mean that your god is impossible, just that it does not show it self more rational.

The extent that I find actual pandeism or my twisted version of pandeism more rational is because 1) it doesn’t have that “imaginary powerful human-like deity” vibe to it that I get from theism and 2) it is basically compatible with naturalism (does not bring supernatural explanations into the mix).

You said correctly that we can not know all things. At some point, due to lack of suitable conclusive proof we -]have to/-] make a rational decision…“which possibility is more rational?”

We absolutely do not have to. It can be interesting to discuss but one is perfectly entitled to say “I have no freaking clue” or “both of those arguments have merit but they both have their flaws, therefore I cannot adopt either one.”

Speaking for myself, I find mono- and polytheism to be too much of a cultural and human phenomenon to be true and just plain old unbelievable. I don’t really understand the point of pantheism and it lacks explanatory power. God concepts such as Wakan Tanka and Brahman elude me. Deism is more believable than regular theism but still suffers from being a human projection. Pandeism has merits but it still posits a divinity of sorts and I do not accept that.
So I am an agnostic atheist. I do not believe any of it.

I can lead you to rationally believe that a God exists, but I cannot show Him to you. However we are all invited to know Him personally. He knocks on all our hearts, all we have to do is willingly let Him in. He is yours if you want Him. You will not find him in a telescope or a science book because He is at the front door of your heart at this very moment asking you to let Him in.

He does not knock on my heart. I am perfectly content in my disbelief. I don’t have a spiritual side. Never have.

What do you think of that line, “The method of Creation was becoming.” A unique concept, don’t you think?

 

[Semangelof]

So I am an agnostic atheist. I do not believe any of it.

If God exists we do have to make a decision. If He does not then there is no decision to make. There is nothing objectively valuable.

I do not understand this term agnostic-atheist. One belief is that “we don’t know, God may or may not exist” the other is “God does not exists”.

]He does not knock on my heart. I am perfectly content in my disbelief. I don’t have a spiritual side. Never have.

It is a still small voice. A whisper in the wind. I have no doubt that He is, but I also have no doubt that it can be missed.

What do you think of that line, “The method of Creation was becoming.” A unique concept, don’t you think?

The Babylonians believed in a God called Tiamat, Marduk slew Tiamat and created the world from the corpse of that god. There is also the Gnostic belief that God dispersed himself to create the world. It’s been awhile since I read about it though. I don’t know if it’s unique but I also don’t see that it would have any value if it were true.

I don’t see that such a belief could work as a sort of compromise between evolution and theism, at least not for us. We don’t believe God blindly. At least in my case my belief in Him is as certain as the chair I’m sitting in, actually more real because my chair will pass away.

When Jesus died, He died before an entire religious community that rejected him and the most powerful empire in history that hunted, killed, and tortured Christians. And yet in the face of such odds that one Jesus defeated the Roman empire without sword. Christians were not fed to lions and sawn in two because they blindly believed in God, they remained Christians because they knew Him, even beyond torture.

There is more to this world than what can be seen with the 5 senses. We have a Spirit within us that allows us to know God, and know He exists, not just believe in Him eyes wide shut. I don’t speak with confidence out of delusion or hope, I speak as one coming back down from the mountain God in hand.

 

[samiam1611]

Semangelof - sorry about the delay.

If God exists we do have to make a decision.

We have to? Why? What happens if we don’t/can’t make a decision?

If He does not then there is no decision to make. There is nothing objectively valuable.

Well of course there is a decision to make. Not that we are under any obligation to actually decide one way or the other, but the assertion has been made that God exists, so we can make a decision on whether this claim is to be believed, disbelieved, or just say we have no clue or don’t understand the claim.

Looking forward to your explanation on why this decision MUST be made if God exists…and to tie in with the OP, what God is one supposed to believe in? What if someone believes in the wrong god?

I do not understand this term agnostic-atheist. One belief is that “we don’t know, God may or may not exist” the other is “God does not exists”.

There is a spectrum. This quote describes my position:

“If a man has failed to find any good reason for believing that there is a God, it is perfectly natural and rational that he should not believe that there is a God; and if so, he is an atheist… if he goes farther, and, after an investigation into the nature and reach of human knowledge, ending in the conclusion that the existence of God is incapable of proof, cease to believe in it on the ground that he cannot know it to be true, he is an agnostic and also an atheist – an agnostic-atheist…”
~Robert Flint

I do not believe God exists, so I am an atheist. Since God is alleged to be invisible, I don’t think it can be proven either way so am agnostic. I do not make the claim that God does not exist, but I do reject the claim that God exists…depends on the god though.

There is more to this world than what can be seen with the 5 senses. We have a Spirit within us that allows us to know God, and know He exists, not just believe in Him eyes wide shut. I don’t speak with confidence out of delusion or hope, I speak as one coming back down from the mountain God in hand.

I don’t see how you could have such confidence in something you can’t perceive with your 5 senses.

 

[Semangelof]

We have to? Why? What happens if we don’t/can’t make a decision?

Looking forward to your explanation on why this decision MUST be made if God exists…and to tie in with the OP, what God is one supposed to believe in? What if someone believes in the wrong god?

The decision I am referring to is a choice to follow Him or not. That is a choice we will all have to make, there isn’t a middle ground.

I do not believe God exists, so I am an atheist. Since God is alleged to be invisible, I don’t think it can be proven either way so am agnostic. I do not make the claim that God does not exist, but I do reject the claim that God exists…depends on the god though.

This still doesn’t make any sense to me. If you don’t believe that it can be proven either way then how can you come to the conclusion that he doesn’t exist. You would therefore have literally no proof to base your belief on. That would seem to require faith. In fact that would require more faith than even I have. The evidence of God in my life has piled up to the point where there can’t be much room left for simple faith in regards to the existence of God.

I don’t see how you could have such confidence in something you can’t perceive with your 5 senses.

That is because there are more than just 5 senses. Here are too big ones Proprioception and Equilibrioception. Birds have a sense of magnetic direction (I have heard some of us do too by the way). None of this is fringe, but accepted science. If you were not aware of these other senses because you believed only 5 existed, then how many more are you unaware of?

Now I don’t mean that I psychically know God like a tv psychic. We are given a Spirit that allows us to have a relationship with God.

Everyday I wake I see that a new day begins with a song. Each day here on earth is heralded with a chorus of music. Not only does it cheer me up for the day, but it cheers the plants up too. Bird song actually makes plant wake up and grow (scientifically proven). Each day the world beings with a song. If you are just reading the letters you will never see the story inside the book.

I agree with you that our world has become partially terrible. But it was not always like this, in fact you can still see some of the old world even now. The terrible parts of the world were twisted by evil and stand as a testament to evil, the beautiful part of the world that remain God created and it is a testament to the goodness of God. We live in both of those worlds simultaneously for now, but it will not always be this way.

 

[samiam1611]

The decision I am referring to is a choice to follow Him or not. That is a choice we will all have to make, there isn’t a middle ground.

This still doesn’t make any sense to me. If you don’t believe that it can be proven either way then how can you come to the conclusion that he doesn’t exist. You would therefore have literally no proof to base your belief on. That would seem to require faith.

I have no proof but I have reasons. My conclusion is based on these reasons.
It requires no more faith for me to reject your religion than it does for you to reject Hinduism or Mormonism etc. But as I said it’s a spectrum. I reject Mormonism more confidently then I reject deism, for example. Some things are more believable than others but when 99% of the religions you hear about sound blatantly false, it is not hard to doubt/reject the 1% that are not so obvious.

In fact that would require more faith than even I have. The evidence of God in my life has piled up to the point where there can’t be much room left for simple faith in regards to the existence of God.

Why do you think God has given you special knowledge of His existence?

That is because there are more than just 5 senses. Here are too big ones Proprioception and Equilibrioception. Birds have a sense of magnetic direction (I have heard some of us do too by the way). None of this is fringe, but accepted science. If you were not aware of these other senses because you believed only 5 existed, then how many more are you unaware of?

I hadn’t thought of that! So is spirituality also a sense? Maybe I am incapable of detecting God like a blind person is incapable of sight. Could it be physiologic?

Now I don’t mean that I psychically know God like a tv psychic. We are given a Spirit that allows us to have a relationship with God.

Everyday I wake I see that a new day begins with a song. Each day here on earth is heralded with a chorus of music. Not only does it cheer me up for the day, but it cheers the plants up too. Bird song actually makes plant wake up and grow (scientifically proven). Each day the world beings with a song. If you are just reading the letters you will never see the story inside the book.

I agree with you that our world has become partially terrible. But it was not always like this, in fact you can still see some of the old world even now. The terrible parts of the world were twisted by evil and stand as a testament to evil, the beautiful part of the world that remain God created and it is a testament to the goodness of God. We live in both of those worlds simultaneously for now, but it will not always be this way.

That’s so cute! He’d make a good pet!

 

[Semangelof]

It requires no more faith for me to reject your religion than it does for you to reject Hinduism or Mormonism etc.

I have never pondered faith in a rejection of something. I always viewed it as faith in one thing caused contrary things to fall away.

Why do you think God has given you special knowledge of His existence?

I am not special, just different, as we all are. In the new testament Paul describes us as the body of Christ. Where one part is the eye and one part is the arm. God has assorted different spiritual gifts to us all. Some work better in one area but not a different area. Regardless of the differences we share the same Spirit, and for each of us God is knowable.

I hadn’t thought of that! So is spirituality also a sense? Maybe I am incapable of detecting God like a blind person is incapable of sight. Could it be physiologic?

I used that as a metaphor, but it’s not a sense that can be trained or operated on or pointed at. There is a door in the heart of each one of us from which Christ can enter, and from which we can hear his knocking. His voice is a quiet and gentle whisper. When we quiet ourselves and seek Him, and pray to enter into a relationship with Jesus, He comes. I don’t mean any transcendental meditation or any nonsense like that, I just mean true genuineness. What I mean is something along the lines of “Lord If you are real I wish to know you, I wish to give my life to you.” “I have sinned and seek your mercy and forgiveness, forgive me Jesus, enter my heart and abide within it, make me new.”

God, as your father, knows you and He wants you, if you want Him you will have Him, you need only seek Him with your heart and ask.

 

[balto]

I hope you don’t mind me jumping in since someone already quoted me earlier .

I do not believe God exists, so I am an atheist. Since God is alleged to be invisible, I don’t think it can be proven either way so am agnostic. I do not make the claim that God does not exist, but I do reject the claim that God exists…depends on the god though.

I don’t think I understand this either. If you’re an atheist, aren’t you claiming to know that God does not exist? That seems to preclude agnosticism. And if you’re an agnostic, why are you only skeptical of God’s existence? Wouldn’t you also have to be skeptical of His nonexistence, and even skeptical of your skepticism? That seems to preclude atheism. And why does something have to be visible to have it be proven? Electrons are invisible but yet we can detect and believe they exist, and there’s a host of other realities that are similarly invisible but yet widely accepted. Although I’m not too familiar with the theory, dark matter and dark energy might be even better examples of this.

Why do you think God has given you special knowledge of His existence?

May I suggest turning the question around? How do you know that God isn’t giving you knowledge of His existence. Maybe He is but you aren’t listening for it? (I don’t mean to be accusatory because I was the same way and probably still am in many ways). It’s not like the electrons just suddenly starting sending off signals to humanity when they weren’t before and that’s how we came to believe in them. They’ve been behaving the same way they always behave but we as humanity just weren’t in the frame of mind to even look for them until recently. Maybe it’s the same way with God. If you’re not open to God or familiar with Him, why would you recognize His calling? Maybe by seeking God eventually God will find you (since it’s impossible for a finite human to “find” the Infinite)

 

[Semangelof]

May I suggest turning the question around? How do you know that God isn’t giving you knowledge of His existence. Maybe He is but you aren’t listening for it? (I don’t mean to be accusatory because I was the same way and probably still am in many ways). It’s not like the electrons just suddenly starting sending off signals to humanity when they weren’t before and that’s how we came to believe in them. They’ve been behaving the same way they always behave but we as humanity just weren’t in the frame of mind to even look for them until recently. Maybe it’s the same way with God. If you’re not open to God or familiar with Him, why would you recognize His calling? Maybe by seeking God eventually God will find you (since it’s impossible for a finite human to “find” the Infinite)

That’s a very good way to put it.

Here on earth there are all these letters everywhere. In the song of a bird, in the cool breeze, in the arms of a loved one. We see them every day but they don’t mean anything as just random letters. Then suddenly we see that they aren’t just letters but words and then like a book the story emerges. All the letters come together and then we see it and even wonder how we couldn’t see it before! The depth of the story blows you away, and then you find out your in it!

Or like looking at a dot matrix picture with a magnifying glass. One day you put the magnifying glass down, lift your head and then overcome with beauty you see the picture that was there all along.

 

[balto]

That’s a very good way to put it.

Here on earth there are all these letters everywhere. In the song of a bird, in the cool breeze, in the arms of a loved one. We see them every day but they don’t mean anything as just random letters. Then suddenly we see that they aren’t just letters but words and then like a book the story emerges. All the letters come together and then we see it and even wonder how we couldn’t see it before! The depth of the story blows you away, and then you find out your in it!

Or like looking at a dot matrix picture with a magnifying glass. One day you put the magnifying glass down, lift your head and then overcome with beauty you see the picture that was there all along.

Thanks! And I agree 100% with your assessment. I know when I wasn’t searching for God I didn’t really think anything of these things, but once you open yourself up to at least the idea of a personal God you start to recognize things like you described. And then you look back into your past and see all the times that God was intervening in your life and you didn’t notice any of it at the time. I think we have a tendency as humans (a lot of the time unconsciously) to place ourselves as the greatest thing in the universe so nothing else really seems special in anyway. But when you place yourself in your proper context and back away from it all the overall image becomes more apparent as you said.

 

[samiam1611]

I have never pondered faith in a rejection of something. I always viewed it as faith in one thing caused contrary things to fall away.

Really? Wow I can’t imagine looking at it any other way.

I am not special, just different, as we all are. In the new testament Paul describes us as the body of Christ. Where one part is the eye and one part is the arm. God has assorted different spiritual gifts to us all. Some work better in one area but not a different area. Regardless of the differences we share the same Spirit, and for each of us God is knowable.

I used that as a metaphor, but it’s not a sense that can be trained or operated on or pointed at. There is a door in the heart of each one of us from which Christ can enter, and from which we can hear his knocking. His voice is a quiet and gentle whisper.

I guess that’s a metaphor too.

When we quiet ourselves and seek Him, and pray to enter into a relationship with Jesus, He comes. I don’t mean any transcendental meditation or any nonsense like that, I just mean true genuineness. What I mean is something along the lines of “Lord If you are real I wish to know you, I wish to give my life to you.” “I have sinned and seek your mercy and forgiveness, forgive me Jesus, enter my heart and abide within it, make me new.”

God, as your father, knows you and He wants you, if you want Him you will have Him, you need only seek Him with your heart and ask.

I cannot in a million years imagine myself saying that.

I hope you don’t mind me jumping in since someone already quoted me earlier.

Welcome!

I don’t think I understand this either.

Did you catch my quote in post #46? It explained it better than when I tried to elaborate.
There are nuanced versions of atheism.

If you’re an atheist, aren’t you claiming to know that God does not exist? That seems to preclude agnosticism.

That would be the position of strong/positive atheism and yes it would preclude agnosticism. My position would be considered negative atheism.

And if you’re an agnostic, why are you only skeptical of God’s existence? Wouldn’t you also have to be skeptical of His nonexistence, and even skeptical of your skepticism? That seems to preclude atheism.

I identify as an atheist not an agnostic. But I am agnostic as opposed to gnostic in the sense that I do not know. Agnostic/gnostic refers to knowledge and atheism/theism refers to the belief so the terms are not mutually exclusive. You can be an agnostic theist.

And why does something have to be visible to have it be proven? Electrons are invisible but yet we can detect and believe they exist, and there’s a host of other realities that are similarly invisible but yet widely accepted. Although I’m not too familiar with the theory, dark matter and dark energy might be even better examples of this.

There are several alleged properties of God that make it impossible to disprove His existence. Invisibility being the greatest obstacle. It’s pretty hard to disprove that something invisible doesn’t exist.

There are many many god claims. I would have to disprove all of them to be able to say “I know God does not exist.” So I don’t say that.

May I suggest turning the question around? How do you know that God isn’t giving you knowledge of His existence. Maybe He is but you aren’t listening for it? (I don’t mean to be accusatory because I was the same way and probably still am in many ways). It’s not like the electrons just suddenly starting sending off signals to humanity when they weren’t before and that’s how we came to believe in them. They’ve been behaving the same way they always behave but we as humanity just weren’t in the frame of mind to even look for them until recently. Maybe it’s the same way with God. If you’re not open to God or familiar with Him, why would you recognize His calling? Maybe by seeking God eventually God will find you (since it’s impossible for a finite human to “find” the Infinite)

Meh. I’m okay with the way things are. If God exists in any true sense of the word, I shouldn’t need to be in a state of “wanting” him or “seeking” him to be able to detect him. I am not that suggestible.

 

[Abu]

Antony Flew, the most notorious atheist, now attests to reason and is now a deist. In examining the unreasonableness of atheism, he affirms:
“I now believe that the universe was brought into existence by an infinite Intelligence,” he affirms. "I believe that this universe’s intricate laws manifest what scientists have called the Mind of God. I believe that life and reproduction originate in a divine Source.

“Why do I believe this, given that I expounded and defended atheism for more than half a century? The short answer is this: this is the world picture, as I see it that has emerged from modern science. Science spotlights three dimensions of nature that point to God. The first is the fact that nature obeys laws. The second is the dimension of life, of intelligently organized and purpose-driven beings, which arose from matter. The third is the very existence of nature.” (There Is a God: How the World’s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind, 2007, pp. 88-89).

Antony Flew came to a belief in God because he examined the mounting evidence of scientific and natural discoveries especially in the field of DNA, and adhered to the Socratic principle of following the evidence wherever it leads. His conclusion was that nothing else but a Supreme Intelligence could explain its own existence as well as the creation of the world.

Anthony Flew: “There were two factors in particular that were decisive. One was my growing empathy with the insight of Einstein and other noted scientists that there had to be an Intelligence behind the integrated complexity of the physical Universe. The second was my own insight that the integrated complexity of life itself – which is far more complex than the physical Universe – can only be explained in terms of an Intelligent Source. I believe that the origin of life and reproduction simply cannot be explained from a biological standpoint despite numerous efforts to do so.

“The difference between life and non-life, it became apparent to me, was ontological and not chemical. I think the origins of the laws of nature and of life and the Universe point clearly to an intelligent Source. The burden of proof is on those who argue to the contrary.

“It was empirical evidence, the evidence uncovered by the sciences. But it was a philosophical inference drawn from the evidence. Scientists as scientists cannot make these kinds of philosophical inferences. They have to speak as philosophers when they study the philosophical implications of empirical evidence. I would add that Dawkins is selective to the point of dishonesty when he cites the views of scientists on the philosophical implications of the scientific data.

“Two noted philosophers, one an agnostic (Anthony Kenny) and the other an atheist (Nagel), recently pointed out that Dawkins has failed to address three major issues that ground the rational case for God. As it happens, these are the very same issues that had driven me to accept the existence of a God: the laws of nature, life with its teleological organization and the existence of the Universe. Another relatively recent change in my philosophical views is my affirmation of the freedom of the will.”

“Like Lewis I believe that God is a person but not the sort of person with whom you can have a talk. It is the ultimate being, the Creator of the Universe.”