Muslim Responses to Unpleasant Islamic Facts

[Booklover]

This thread is a reference for those debating with Muslims. It deals with the typical responses they use when faced with challenges to their religion. I’ve encountered these tactics on many occasions! Don’t let them bamboozle you!

When Muslims are told about scores of horrendous facts contained in the Quran, Sunnah and the Sharia, they will typical respond as follows:

1. Accuse the person of lying and ignorance. Tell him/her to read “authentic” Muslim websites and texts. Say that critics of Islam are “so-called” experts. Say that once a person “learns” about the “real” Islam, he/she will understand how beautiful and peaceful it is.

2. Accuse the person of racism or Islamophobia (This is one of the best tactics!). Say they are “filled with hate” (this works really well with Liberals!). Restrict your arguments to a specific subject (How Muslims are persecuted and misunderstood). Generalize a lot. Never suggest that a person examine both sides of the issue (that is, compare arguments from anti-Islamic sites with those from Muslims experts). Never refer to the hate and violence Muslims do. Say that the actions of Muslims have nothing to do with Islam.

3. Say that the problem is that Muslims today are not practicing the “Original Islam” of Mohammed and the glorious era of the ‘Four Righteous Caliphs’ that followed him (Do not mention the hate and violence that Mohammad preached and practiced and do not mention that 3 out of the 4 so-called Righteous Caliphs were murdered by Muslims in a fifty year orgy of conquest, greed, violence and rivalry that ended at battle of Kerbala - called the Ashura ─ with Muslims fighting Muslims and the heads of Mohammad’s grandson and even infant great-grandson and 70 others being carried in bags as trophies by the victorious Muslim army). Tell them that Islam is really peaceful!

**4. **Say that any verse from the Koran that portrays Islam negatively is “out of context”. Tell them it doesn’t really mean what it says. Also, insist that any tradition that says that Mohammad did very bad things is “weak” or forged, or that it has no isnad (chain of narration) even if it has a long isnad and Muslims constantly quote from this same source.

See the complete article here.

Vickie

 

[Sister_Amy]

This thread is a reference for those debating with Muslims. It deals with the typical responses they use when faced with challenges to their religion. I’ve encountered these tactics on many occasions! Don’t let them bamboozle you!

She’s talking about me… proceed carefully… I’m very scary… rowr.

When Muslims are told about scores of horrendous facts contained in the Quran, Sunnah and the Sharia, they will typical respond as follows:

1. Accuse the person of lying and ignorance. Tell him/her to read “authentic” Muslim websites and texts. Say that critics of Islam are “so-called” experts. Say that once a person “learns” about the “real” Islam, he/she will understand how beautiful and peaceful it is.

Vickie, please tell me the appropriate response to an inaccurate counterfactual statement? If I were to tell you that the Bible teaches Jesus married, had 2 wives and 5 children. Would you say that I am a liar, and to prove it? That would be the appropriate response, as it is a lie which cannot be proven. Likewise, people here are lying about Islam–I call them liars, and ask them to prove what they’re saying if it’s true–apparentlyt oo much to ask.

2. Accuse the person of racism or Islamophobia (This is one of the best tactics!). Say they are “filled with hate” (this works really well with Liberals!). Restrict your arguments to a specific subject (How Muslims are persecuted and misunderstood). Generalize a lot. Never suggest that a person examine both sides of the issue (that is, compare arguments from anti-Islamic sites with those from Muslims experts). Never refer to the hate and violence Muslims do. Say that the actions of Muslims have nothing to do with Islam.

That couldn’t ever be true, could it? Gosh no!

3. Say that the problem is that Muslims today are not practicing the “Original Islam” of Mohammed and the glorious era of the ‘Four Righteous Caliphs’ that followed him (Do not mention the hate and violence that Mohammad preached and practiced and do not mention that 3 out of the 4 so-called Righteous Caliphs were murdered by Muslims in a fifty year orgy of conquest, greed, violence and rivalry that ended at battle of Kerbala - called the Ashura ─ with Muslims fighting Muslims and the heads of Mohammad’s grandson and even infant great-grandson and 70 others being carried in bags as trophies by the victorious Muslim army). Tell them that Islam is really peaceful!

Please allow me to correct your history. 3 out of 4 caliphs were murdered by Muslims in only 30 years, not 50. That those 4 caliphs were considered the best Muslims after the prophet shows that their murderers were… well…

**4. **Say that any verse from the Koran that portrays Islam negatively is “out of context”. Tell them it doesn’t really mean what it says. Also, insist that any tradition that says that Mohammad did very bad things is “weak” or forged, or that it has no isnad (chain of narration) even if it has a long isnad and Muslims constantly quote from this same source.

I’m curious why you can spell “isnad” correctly but not “Qur’an.” This doesn’t make any sense unfortunately to people who haven’t studied hadith sciences.

Vickie

Thanks dear.

 

[rpp]

Big surprise here. The truth hurts.

 

[Booklover]

She’s talking about me… proceed carefully… I’m very scary… rowr.

Vickie, please tell me the appropriate response to an inaccurate counterfactual statement? If I were to tell you that the Bible teaches Jesus married, had 2 wives and 5 children. Would you say that I am a liar, and to prove it? That would be the appropriate response, as it is a lie which cannot be proven. Likewise, people here are lying about Islam–I call them liars, and ask them to prove what they’re saying if it’s true–apparentlyt oo much to ask.

That couldn’t ever be true, could it? Gosh no!

Please allow me to correct your history. 3 out of 4 caliphs were murdered by Muslims in only 30 years, not 50. That those 4 caliphs were considered the best Muslims after the prophet shows that their murderers were… well…

I’m curious why you can spell “isnad” correctly but not “Qur’an.” This doesn’t make any sense unfortunately to people who haven’t studied hadith sciences.

Thanks dear.

That article was not written by me, but I’ve seen the same tactics used by Muslims time and again! You’re employing of them right now accusing others of lying is they disgree with your portrayal of Islam!

Vickie

 

[ralphinal]

Actually, this is common from most Muslim posters that we have had on here. I will say that those whose are from the West tend to discuss a little better. Perhaps it is from being in a culture where faith is questioned openly.

As an aside, I see the same kind of tactics from many groups, both on here and in life.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Vickie, you didn’t answer my question.

“Vickie, please tell me the appropriate response to an inaccurate counterfactual statement? If I were to tell you that the Bible teaches Jesus married, had 2 wives and 5 children. Would you say that I am a liar, and to prove it? That would be the appropriate response, as it is a lie which cannot be proven. Likewise, people here are lying about Islam–I call them liars, and ask them to prove what they’re saying if it’s true–apparently too much to ask.”

 

[rpp]

Vickie, you didn’t answer my question.

“Vickie, please tell me the appropriate response to an inaccurate counterfactual statement? If I were to tell you that the Bible teaches Jesus married, had 2 wives and 5 children. Would you say that I am a liar, and to prove it? That would be the appropriate response, as it is a lie which cannot be proven. Likewise, people here are lying about Islam–I call them liars, and ask them to prove what they’re saying if it’s true–apparently too much to ask.”

I did not see that you posted anything worth addressing. It appears to be a rhetorical question. However, should someone actually make such a ridiculous and demonstrably false claim, calling them names, like liar, is not useful. The response that is usually seen here is something along the lines of “can you quote scripture?”

Calling a person filthy names, like liar, is not right. That you think it is appropriate is rather telling.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Well, Vickie has called me a liar. So have others.

So if calling a person a liar is bad, and I can’t ask for textual proof…

then I am asking how should I respond? It is not a rhetorical question.

 

[Reuben_J]

Please allow me to correct your history. 3 out of 4 caliphs were murdered by Muslims in only 30 years, not 50. That those 4 caliphs were considered the best Muslims after the prophet shows that their murderers were… well…

Oh, my, my. Three out of four bests murdered. And we are peaceful and non-political. You really have some explaining to do here, Amy.

 

[rpp]

Well, Vickie has called me a liar. So have others.

So if calling a person a liar is bad, and I can’t ask for textual proof…

then I am asking how should I respond? It is not a rhetorical question.

I think you are helping to prove the point of the opening post. Thank you very much for the straw-man arguments with the little spice of an ad hoiminem accusation, nicely done.

It is also very telling that you claim to be a muslim, yet do not disclose your religion on your profile.

Your demonstrably false straw-man question has already been answered.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I think you are helping to prove the point of the opening post.

Maybe so.

Thank you very much for the straw-man arguments with the little spice of an ad hoiminem accusation, nicely done.

Vickie, AgnostTheist, and I think maybe even R_not have all accused me of lying about Islam. They use a fancy word for it, that I actually had to ask to be defined because I didn’t know it. But it means simply lying. So you can call it ad hominem, but I think I make a very good point–I have (I’m admitting it) called some posters liars. And I have also been called a liar.

rpp:

Calling a person filthy names, like liar, is not right. That you think it is appropriate is rather telling.

Okay, instead of actually disputing you here, I am asking you to share this lovely gem with Vickie et al. who have accused me of the same. No double standards, please.

It is also very telling that you claim to be a muslim, yet do not disclose your religion on your profile.

Ashhadu allaa ilaaha illa Allah wa ashhadhu anna Muhammad abduhu wa rasooluh. Aslam–I submit. I am a Muslim, and just for you I have remedied my profile.

Your demonstrably false straw-man question has already been answered.

By whom, and where? I must have missed it.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Oh, my, my. Three out of four bests murdered. And we are peaceful and non-political. You really have some explaining to do here, Amy.

Abu Bakr died of natural causes. He was succeeded by 'Umar, who was stabbed while leading a prayer by a non-Muslim over a personal grudge, and died soon thereafter. (He was not killed by a Muslim.)

He was succeeded by 'Uthman, who faced some rebellions in Egypt and Iraq (which were Muslim by then) and several mutineering soldiers stormed his home and was stabbed while he was reading Qur’an. This was the first time Muslim blood had been shed by Muslims. He was like 80 years old then, assassinated.

The next caliph was 'Ali, and while he was caliph there was a group of Muslims who had a pretty grave misunderstanding about Islam, and they tried to take over, by assassinating all the leaders of the Muslims including 'Ali. 'Ali was shot with a poisoned arrow while praying and died later.

:crying:

 

[Kadaveri]

Also `Umar’s murderer was either a Zoroastrian or a Christian convert from Zoroastrianism, he was definitely not a Muslim anyway.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Also `Umar’s murderer was either a Zoroastrian or a Christian convert from Zoroastrianism, he was definitely not a Muslim anyway.

Kad, I learned something today!

'Umar told the people not to water down their milk when they sold it in the market, (to sell more, dishonestly) and there was a mother who told her daughter to do that. And she said no, 'Umar said not to do that. And she said 'Umar wasn’t there so do it anyway, he wouldn’t know. But the girl said that Allah can see.

'Umar came by, and suggested since his son was looking for a wife that his son marry her because of the strong faith in her heart, and they did get married. And you know who her grandson was!?

'Umar ibn AbdulAzeez!!

 

[EB4304]

I’m not an expert on the Quran so I’m not going to claim to know what’s being used out of context and what isn’t. There’s plenty of stuff in the Bible that can be misconstrued.

There is, however, one problem which I keep bringing up which no one has ever been able to answer.

It’s very difficult to trust the Quran when it contradicts the New Testament and several secular accounts of Jesus being crucified and killed. It’s pretty much an objective, historical fact that Jesus Christ was executed by crucifixion.

But because the Quran says something else (and the Quran was written much later than the New Testament) many feel they need to somehow defend the Quran. And the only way to do this is to utilize circular reasoning: “I trust the Quran because Allah inspired it.” How do you know that Allah inspired it? “Because it’s in the Quran.” And why do you trust the Quran? “Because Allah inspired it.”

Obviously it’s rarely as explicit as that (though sometimes it is) but in the end it boils down to that. To say that Jesus Christ wasn’t killed by crucifixion is to deny an incredible amount of early historical testimony that no serious, objective scholar would take seriously. And that means that the Quran is in direct error in what says about Jesus, which means that it isn’t infallible.

I don’t bring up this to try to antagonize or mock the faith of any Muslims - I am very inspired by the strength of faith of many Muslims I know of. But, as a Christian, my primary mission is to bring people closer to Christ, and when anything - even a sacred text of another religion - speaks clear falsehood about Him, I will address it.

 

[bpbasilphx]

I’m curious why you can spell “isnad” correctly but not “Qur’an.” This doesn’t make any sense unfortunately to people who haven’t studied hadith sciences.

**“Quran” is an acceptable spelling, just as are “Koran”, “Coran,” “Mussulman,” “Mahomet,” etc.

You’ve not condemned the kidnapping of the Chaldean Catholic Bishop of Mosul, Sister Amy. Why?**

 

[Sister_Amy]

I’m curious why you can spell “isnad” correctly but not “Qur’an.” This doesn’t make any sense unfortunately to people who haven’t studied hadith sciences.

**“Quran” is an acceptable spelling, just as are “Koran”, “Coran,” “Mussulman,” “Mahomet,” etc.

You’ve not condemned the kidnapping of the Chaldean Catholic Bishop of Mosul, Sister Amy. Why?**

Huh?

 

[Sister_Amy]

EB4304, I don’t want to argue with you, really. I have elsewhere described some of the miracles of the Qur’an, but that aside… let us just say that if the Qur’an is inspired, if God revealed it, then God would know what really happened, more than the so-called testimony of men, wouldn’t He?

I know that of course you don’t believe the Qur’an was revealed. There are other stories in the Qur’an which contradict the Bible. Muhammad was not there to witness those events–not Moses in front of Pharaoh, not Abraham with his father, not Saalih and the camel, not Mary in her chamber… we know he wasn’t there. The explanation is that God, who witnesses all things, witnessed these things too. And God would know if Jesus were really crucified. We all know that the Bible says that he was. Why do you trust the Bible though–is it really any better proof than the Qur’an?

If you can suppose for a moment that someone did say something about God that wasn’t true, and God sent another Messenger to correct it… wouldn’t the last Message be the most accurate? Just some thoughts–I don’t mean to offend.

 

[IvanKaramozov]

Kad, I learned something today!

'Umar told the people not to water down their milk when they sold it in the market, (to sell more, dishonestly) and there was a mother who told her daughter to do that. And she said no, 'Umar said not to do that. And she said 'Umar wasn’t there so do it anyway, he wouldn’t know. But the girl said that Allah can see.

'Umar came by, and suggested since his son was looking for a wife that his son marry her because of the strong faith in her heart, and they did get married. And you know who her grandson was!?

'Umar ibn AbdulAzeez!!

What exactly is the evidence to support that story?

 

[IvanKaramozov]

EB4304, I don’t want to argue with you, really. I have elsewhere described some of the miracles of the Qur’an, but that aside… let us just say that if the Qur’an is inspired, if God revealed it, then God would know what really happened, more than the so-called testimony of men, wouldn’t He?

I know that of course you don’t believe the Qur’an was revealed. There are other stories in the Qur’an which contradict the Bible. Muhammad was not there to witness those events–not Moses in front of Pharaoh, not Abraham with his father, not Saalih and the camel, not Mary in her chamber… we know he wasn’t there. The explanation is that God, who witnesses all things, witnessed these things too. And God would know if Jesus were really crucified. We all know that the Bible says that he was. Why do you trust the Bible though–is it really any better proof than the Qur’an?

If you can suppose for a moment that someone did say something about God that wasn’t true, and God sent another Messenger to correct it… wouldn’t the last Message be the most accurate? Just some thoughts–I don’t mean to offend.

there’s no reasone to suppose that, perhapse accecpting your premisses as true that would authenticate the message first received, it would in no was validate it as more accurate 1300 years after the fact, especially considering that the message was hopelessly currupted in a mere 700ish years.