Muslim to Catholic?

[Linda_Marie]

what about limited that to our knowledge for now
i mean suppose that your neighbour who was pagan all of his life died suddenly in his paganism , in that case may God accept your prayer for him to get salvation of christ even if you were sure in your own knowledge that he died in paganism , let us suppose that in the knowledge of God he was pagan when he died either

actually this is what quran said , " after it was clear to them that they are companion of fire "
It is not fitting, for the Prophet and those who believe, that they should pray for forgiveness for Pagans, even though they be of kin, after it is clear to them that they are companions of the Fire.

Linda Marie
seems to me that you agree that you can pray for dead nonchristian , becasue their is probability that he convert to christianiy in the bed of death
is that mean that it will be useless prayer if he didn’t convert in his bed before his death as you suppose ?

None of us can know the Mind of God to know beforehand what prayers will be answered with a ‘Yes’ and which ones will be answered ‘No’. If we limit our prayers to what we know will be answered in the affirmative, we may as well not be praying at all. We Hope in Faith that Love will transform the sinner, that God will grant that person the grace to believe. Even if the person rejects God’s grace, our prayer for them counts in our favour and the merit of the prayer will go into the Treasury in Heaven to be given to another.

No prayer is useless. Prayer is spending time with God. We turn our minds to Him, open our hearts to the needs of others and plead for them. This is pleasing to God and never a waste of time.

 

[Bwtby]

Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

• Deuteronomy 12:31

Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth.

• Deuteronomy 16:22

For I the LORD love justice, I hate robbery and wrong;

• Isaiah 61:8

Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: You have seen all the evil that I brought upon Jerusalem and upon all the cities of Judah. Behold, this day they are a desolation, and no one dwells in them, because of the wickedness which they committed, provoking me to anger, in that they went to burn incense and serve other gods that they knew not, neither they, nor you, nor your fathers.Yet I persistently sent to you all my servants the prophets, saying, ‘Oh, do not do this abominable thing that I hate!’

• Jeremiah 44:2-4

These are the things that you shall do: "Speak the truth to one another, render in your gates judgments that are true and make for peace,do not devise evil in your hearts against one another, and love no false oath, for all these things I hate, says the LORD.
Zechariah 8:16-17

“I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How hast thou loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” says the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob but I have hated Esau; I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”
Malachi 1:2-3

“For I hate divorce, says the LORD the God of Israel, and covering one’s garment with violence, says the LORD of hosts. So take heed to yourselves and do not be faithless.”

• Malachi 2:16

As long as they did not sin against their God they prospered, for the God who hates iniquity is with them.

• Judith 5:17

The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked, and his soul hates him that loves violence.

• Psalms 11:5

Your royal scepter is a scepter of equity; you love righteousness and hate wickedness.
Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows; …

• Psalms 45:6-7

The LORD loves those who hate evil; …

• Psalms 97:10

There are six things which the LORD hates, seven which are an abomination to him: …
Proverbs 6:16

Arrogance is hateful before the Lord and before men, and injustice is outrageous to both.

• Wisdom of Jesus Son of Sirach 10:7

For the Most High also hates sinners and will inflict punishment on the ungodly.

• Wisdom of Jesus Son of Sirach 12:6

Do not say, “Because of the Lord I left the right way”; for he will not do what he hates.

• Wisdom of Jesus Son of Sirach 15:11

The Lord hates all abominations, and they are not loved by those who fear him.

• Wisdom of Jesus Son of Sirach 15:13

Return to the Most High and turn away from iniquity, and hate abominations intensely.

• Wisdom of Jesus Son of Sirach 17:26

I have hated many things, but none to be compared to him; even the Lord will hate him.

• Wisdom of Jesus Son of Sirach 27:24

The Lord GOD has sworn by himself (says the LORD, the God of hosts): “I abhor the pride of Jacob, and hate his strongholds; and I will deliver up the city and all that is in it.”

• Amos 6:8

As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!

• Romans 9:13-14

Let love be genuine; hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good;

• Romans 12:9

 

[men0wjv]

Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

• Deuteronomy 12:31 …

Thanks for that
It seems really odd what some are saying ; I received a Christian education and it is quite clear that although the sun shines on the just and the unjust there clearly is a hierarchy, the alternative is painfully illogical; does God love Satan as He loves Abraham? Thats because a lot of people have missed that there is two types of love. Unconditional love that is imbued in all creation and specific love for the justified. I was going to not comment on this thread, but I think I should because there’s so much misunderstanding.
We have two sorts of Divine Love too; All love is a manifestation of God’s Love, the Love that He has for Himself: ‘God is Beautiful and Loves beauty.’ Whilst Mercy flows in one direction, from God to the cosmos, Love flows in both directions:* ‘He loves them and they love Him’ [5:54]*. People cannot have Mercy on God, only on other creatures. Love is what closes the gap between God and His creation. The greater the love, the greater the degree of participation in the Divine image, and thus the greater the degree of human perfection.
As Muslims, our beliefs on this very much concur with what’s been said. ‘Judgment is for God alone,’ [6:57]. It is not the character of a Muslim to go pointing the finger: “The believer is not one who slanders, curses or uses vulgarity” (Tirmidhi). God wants us to love Him, but He is not a dictator and will not force us. Some choose God’s Wrath and so that is what they have. As such, people after death enter into God’s Mercy or His Wrath by their choosing. To supplicate for Mercy, one who is destined Wrath is tantamount to questioning God’s decision and clearly not a good thing. Of course we do not decide who goes where, but God alone and so we cannot say for sure. As Muslims we are taught that only Islam saves and so someone who dies in a state of rejecting Islam (with proof like a final recant) is therefore considered in God’s Wrath. This doesn’t mean all non-Muslims go to hell necessarily, btw. That said God said: ‘My Mercy precedes my Wrath’ (Hadith Qudsi) and ‘My Mercy encompasses all things.’ [7:156] and so even those that reject Him still receive His Mercy, at least in some degree.
The verse mentioned (9:113) is a specific instruction to Muhammad (pbuh) that he should not continue (he did this even though he was told it would be of no benefit) to make supplication for God’s Mercy on his uncle, Abu Talib, since he died in disbelief. Abu Talib, on his death bed, with full knowledge of Islam rejected it in favour of the pagan religion of Abu Muttalib. This is a lesson for us Muslims to do the same in a similar situation. Not in a situation that is not similar, such as a living non-Muslim or one in which there is uncertainty about what state one died in etc. Which is interesting because the original argument mentioned Michael Jackson… and since he payed for a mosque to be built, it is very uncertain what state he died in. Since I have love for my brethren in humanity I can only wish for God’s Mercy on him, and He is the best of Judges

 

[Thyme]

Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

I believe this has been interpreted wrong.

From my understanding it means:You shall not do to the Lord what they (the Pagans) do. Everything which the Lord hates, they have done to their gods. They have even burned their children for their gods. (Pagans used to sacrifice their children for gods).

To Christians, God’s love is unconditional. Those who go to hell reject God up until the very moment they meet Him. In Christianity, “The loss of each soul plunges Me into mortal sadness.”- Jesus to St. Faustina.

The Biblical proof that God loves everyone is in my signature.

 

[men0wjv]

To Christians, God’s love is unconditional

Needs defining.

It is a shame that some on CAF argue and make accusations about another religion when they don’t even understand their own religion’s perspective on the matter. Some are putting forward arguments like this (I’ve reversed it for effect): In the Qur’an it says ‘He loves them and they love Him’ [5:54], but in the Bible it says “Thou hatest all the workers of iniquity,” (Psalm 5:7). So clearly Islam is better… this is clearly a poor argument, but then if its a poor one for a Muslim to make then why is it a good one for a Christian That’s rhetorical btw

If we are going to just say that God loves unconditionally at face value then we enter into all sorts of problems; how do we explain Purgatory or Hell, for example? If we say God’s Essence is Love - ‘God is Love’ (1 John 4:8) - then we have all kinds of problems like the existence of evil - which is where Christianity’s biggest objection comes from academic circles. The Islamic model bypasses this, since we say God is Loving (Al Wadud), it is His Attribute and not His Essence, which is Transcendent. So like I said, you need to know your own religion in detail before you start making arbitrary remarks against another’s. Anyway, I’m not here to argue, but just remind myself and you all to think first.

I’m a keen student of Aquinas and in the Summa Theologica he wrote:
Nothing prevents one and the same thing being loved under one aspect, while it is hated under another. God loves sinners in so far as they are existing natures; for they have existence and have it from Him. In so far as they are sinners, they have not existence at all, but fall short of it; and this in them is not from God. Hence under this aspect, they are hated by Him
Interestingly there is no reason why a Muslim can’t say the same thing, since evil is of non-existence and the absence of God - which of course you all knew

What’s the point of exchanging ignorance or basing an argument on ignorance… I always liked Catholicism because, like Islam, we are accountable for our actions and so fear God on the day when all knowledge will be made manifest - how stupid will we look then?

Anyway, at the end of the day all we can do is what we feel is right; making arguments over theological questions does not bring one closer to God: “God can be loved but he cannot be thought. He can be grasped by love but never by concepts. So less thinking and more loving.”. So Lucy26 if you really think Catholicism is right and it is the only thing you feel confident facing Our Beloved on the Day of Judgment then go for it God has all knowledge and is right, I think Islam is right, but I have to admit that I may be wrong because only God is right (to say other than that is to make myself God); likewise you think Catholicism is right, but you have to admit that you may be wrong.

I don’t know why on Earth people have thought that the best way to entice Lucy26 to Islam is by making ridiculous accusations against Islam - which just show your ignorance. Would it not be better to point to Catholicisms beauty. Lucy26 read The Cloud of Unknowing and then if you still want to compare with Islam then read Melvana by Jalaluddin ar Rumi and then take it from there… because I can assure you that Catholicism and Islam believe that ignorance is not an attribute of righteousness

God knows best

 

[dzheremi]

It may be helpful to remind all engaged in this discussion of the vast chasm between the Cataphatic Theology and Scholasticism which is, broadly speaking, the hallmark of Western Christianity and the largely Apophatic Theology of the Eastern Christian traditions. It is overly simplistic to frame our discussions entirely within these frameworks, but they are helpful in discussing what is appropriate within Christian tradition as a whole, rather than pointing to something like Aquinas’ Summa as though it is the essence of Christianity itself, rather than one particular individual’s understanding of it commensurate with his background and influences. I have yet to meet a single Eastern Christian of any church who treats the writings of Aquinas as though they foundational to his theology in the way that a Western Christian may find them to be. I personally would not consider them to be so, and I have owned the Summa in translation for many years now!

Square pegs, round holes, etc.

 

[Thyme]

By unconditional love, I mean:

All are equal in the eyes of God.

Where there is neither Gentile nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian nor Scythian, bond nor free. But Christ is all, and in all

Everyone sins and is undeserving of Heaven. It is because God’s mercy that we can be saved. Everyone has a right to God’s mercy, especially the greatest sinner.

If a soul goes to hell, it is because they refused God’s mercy even when they meet Him, or reject the truth when it is made known to them. **God doesn’t send them to hell out of hatred, but because of the souls’ free will to reject God. ** Those who reject God cannot enter Heaven, but who are we to say that atheists reject Him when they meet Him?

This is the Catholic view.

 

[BlueShadow123]

Why do you want to?

Just curious.

 

[men0wjv]

It may be helpful to remind all engaged in this discussion of the vast chasm between the Cataphatic Theology and Scholasticism which is, broadly speaking, the hallmark of Western Christianity and the largely Apophatic Theology of the Eastern Christian traditions. It is overly simplistic to frame our discussions entirely within these frameworks, but they are helpful in discussing what is appropriate within Christian tradition as a whole, rather than pointing to something like Aquinas’ Summa as though it is the essence of Christianity itself, rather than one particular individual’s understanding of it commensurate with his background and influences. I have yet to meet a single Eastern Christian of any church who treats the writings of Aquinas as though they foundational to his theology in the way that a Western Christian may find them to be. I personally would not consider them to be so, and I have owned the Summa in translation for many years now!

Square pegs, round holes, etc.

A good point Would you enlighten us with a more Eastern view?

 

[men0wjv]

By unconditional love, I mean…

Thanks for reply, btw my comments were general and not really directed at you.

All are equal in the eyes of God.

A Muslim can say this too

Everyone sins and is undeserving of Heaven. It is because God’s mercy that we can be saved. Everyone has a right to God’s mercy, especially the greatest sinner.
If a soul goes to hell, it is because they refused God’s mercy even when they meet Him, or reject the truth when it is made known to them. **God doesn’t send them to hell out of hatred, but because of the souls’ free will to reject God. ** Those who reject God cannot enter Heaven, but who are we to say that atheists reject Him when they meet Him?
This is the Catholic view.

A Muslim could say this too

 

[Thyme]

Thanks for reply, btw my comments were general and not really directed at you.

A Muslim can say this too

A Muslim could say this too

Thanks for your response. So Muslims believe that non-Muslims, even atheists can go to Heaven?

 

[Bwtby]

To Christians, God’s love is unconditional. Those who go to hell reject God up until the very moment they meet Him. In Christianity, “The loss of each soul plunges Me into mortal sadness.”- Jesus to St. Faustina.

‘‘So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.’’ - Jesus says in Matthew 10:32-33

 

[men0wjv]

Thanks for your response. So Muslims believe that non-Muslims, even atheists can go to Heaven?

Yes it is possible. It is our belief that only Islam save, however if one is ignorant of it or has received a distorted image then they are innocent and can be saved by Divine amnesty for their ignorance, not their beliefs. Given what was posted just after your post, it sounds like you have that too

 

[FaithJoy]

Yes it is possible. It is our belief that only Islam save, however if one is ignorant of it or has received a distorted image then they are innocent and can be saved by Divine amnesty for their ignorance, not their beliefs. Given what was posted just after your post, it sounds like you have that too

That is interesting.Is that a personal belief, or is it read in the Koran?

 

[men0wjv]

That is interesting.Is that a personal belief, or is it read in the Koran?

It is the position of Ahul Sunnah wal Jamat (The people of Sunnah and consensus), i.e. overwhelming majority, mainstream. Technically it is the Ashari position; Abu Hamid Al Ghazali, known by the epithet The Proof of Islam, made such comments in Ihya Ulum ud-Deen (those familiar with Islamic literature will know that this is proof enough). The evidence for this understanding comes directly from the Qur’an [17:15] ‘Whoever does good deeds will be guided, whoever goes astray is due to his detriment; no one can bear another person’s burden. God does not punish a people until He sends a messenger to them.’

 

[algebra]

You’re right, I don’t have a clue what background you’re from, but I’m fairly certain it’s not the same as mine. Moreover, it’s not fair of you to suggest that I’m not “living” Islam, because I am now and have been for years. To say I’m “studying” is only to let you know that I’m not just living but also living it with comprehension of meaning.

I have studied islam, extensively. I am married to a muslimah.

I would not follow islam, because Mohammed is not a good example to follow, plain and simple.

 

[algebra]

but there’s not a single historical mistake in there.

Is it true then that Mary (the mother of jesus) was the sister of Aaron?

A simple yes or no, will suffice.

I am not interested in interpretations.

 

[dzheremi]

Yes, I’d like a straight answer to that question, too.

 

[men0wjv]

Is it true then that Mary (the mother of jesus) was the sister of Aaron?

Literally no, spiritually yes
Mughira b. Shu’ba reported: "When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me: You read “O sister of Harun (Aaron)” (i. e. Mary) in the Qur’an, whereas Moses was born much before Jesus. When I came back to Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) I asked him about that, whereupon he said: The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostles and pious persons who had gone before them. (Sahih Muslim 25:5326)

 

[Limette]

Is there any former Muslims here who have made that jump? I’m considering it, and if all my research continues matching up I most likely will.

I am just seeing you post.

I am a former Muslim yes (born, raised, practising and convinced!).
Converted to Christianity in early 2009. Now I am considering joining the Catholic church and am enrolled in RCIA.

Feel free to write me.


PS: the Qur’an confuses Mariam (Myriam) the sister of Aaron and Moses, with Mariam the mother of Jesus. NO, Mariam the mother of Jesus is NOT the sister of Aaron.