Muslim view of the Ascension of Jesus into Heaven

[planten]

Can you stop talking like that? If a muslim insulted a christian like that in this website he would’ve been banned however if a christian wants to do the same thing-nothing happens. These double-standards are amazing!

wasalam

**Yes, bpbasilphx should be restrained immediately from abusive words. There was no need for bpbasilphx to reply. The OP had asked the many muslims about their opinion. bpbasilphx may be an atheist or a spoiled christian. There was no need to reply with abusive words.

To come back on topic, Elwill has given up, has (in a good way and honest way) not made a satisfactory reply. Zaki also has not yet replied to the real question. I will also not reply due to the reason stated in the Opening post. But perhaps I can comment on the replies given by Muslims when they reply. That may be permitted by OP.**

 

[planten]

It is interesting to know that it is a fact that Islam came hundreds of years after the acsension of Jesus Christ and hundreds of years after Islam’s false claim of him living in India for 90 plus years.

**Please be careful about the word “Crucifixion”. It means dying on the cross, not just putting on the cross. If some one is said to be crucified, it means he died on the cross. If he did not die on the cross then even if he was put on the cross, it would be said that he was not crucified.

This is an important matter in understanding the Quranic version of the story. When Quran says that Jesus was not crucified, it simply means that he did not die on the cross. The Quran further strengthens the matter by saying that they (his enemies) could not kill Jesus in any other way too. They definitely could not kill him. These are the exact words of the Quran.

So the matter boils down to the christians view that :

1. Jesus died on the cross but later got up and lived. That is called “Resurrection”.
2. The Quran says that Jesus did not die on the cross. But he appeared to be dead.

Noting these two points of both sides, from here now the matter of ascension (going up into heavens= Rafa’a in Arabic) can be discussed in a good way. Let the Muslims take a start from the correct point. There is no need to deny the putting up of Jesus on the cross.

There is no need to believe that another man was given the shape of Jesus and put up on the cross. That is not in the Quran or Hadith at all. That is an idea of some unknown irresponsible man. So all have to believe that it was jesus himself on the cross. We muslims have to reply to the news of the Ascension (Rafa’a) of Jesus from that point onward / upward.
**

 

[ZAKI]

**Yes, bpbasilphx should be restrained immediately from abusive words. There was no need for bpbasilphx to reply. The OP had asked the many muslims about their opinion. bpbasilphx may be an atheist or a spoiled christian. There was no need to reply with abusive words.

To come back on topic, Elwill has given up, has (in a good way and honest way) not made a satisfactory reply. Zaki also has not yet replied to the real question. I will also not reply due to the reason stated in the Opening post. But perhaps I can comment on the replies given by Muslims when they reply. That may be permitted by OP.**

I dont think elwill has given up-he has just gone-his post is one of the last in this thread. i am just watching how this goes and making sure nobody insults my religion

wasalam

 

[planten]

one member here,Koranist…I think he believes in the literal death of Jesus on the cross as recorded in the Gospels…yet…he is still a muslim

Thanks Hadi, for this info. I would like to know from that Quranist, very briefly, how he thinks that Jesus died on the cross when Quran is denying that. Being a Quranist, it would be difficult for that person to go against the Quran !

 

[planten]

** I had given my posts after eading the first few posts. I see that Elwill has tried to reply. That is good.**

From Jay53 to Elwill:

No problem! I am happy that you responded. I’m rather surprised that more Muslims haven’t responded. It’s not a trick question and I’m not looking for an argument or anything - I’m just confused about this point in Islam. I’m honestly just looking for clarification as to when Muslims believe Jesus ascended into Heaven and how that reconciles with Biblical accounts of the event and all of the events following Jesus’ crucifixion and Resurrection. I’m honestly just trying to find out what exactly Muslims believe

**
From me to jay53:

Your honesty and good will is quite clear. You want to know that answer to the acsention of Jesus. Even though I am not allowed to reply, but still I will prepare a reply and it will take some time to make it proper (in the light of Quran and Sunnah). It may take two days…

Your question is a Million Dollar question. It is the most important question for the Jews and Christians and Muslims to understand exactly when and how did Jesus go to heavens.
Thanks for raising that question.**

 

[elwill]

Do you have any evidence or support for this theory or is it just that - speculation?

Obviously since I am Catholic I find this completely unbelievable, but perhaps you have something historical or factual to base your story on. ???

Sorry, I didn’t follow this. What was inserted in brackets? I will have to go back and reread all the posts because I’m not following your line of thought at all.

Again, do you have any evidence that this has anything to do with Judas?

Given the context of that verse, the sentence, “Now while they were going, behold, some of the guard came into the city and reported to the chief priests all that had happened.” meaning the fact that the tomb was found to be empty.


Here is the account with Thomas:

According to this account, Thomas witnessed the nailmarks in Jesus’ hands and the wound in His side. My question is, do you believe this account as recorded in the Bible or is this one of the “corrupted” verses?


I thought I had said that Jesus confirmed that He was crucified. If not, I should have.
Here was what the disciples said to Jesus when He asked what they were speaking about and why they were sad: (Luke 24: 20-27)

And they said to him, “Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a prophet, mighty in work and word before God and all the people; and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be sentenced to death, and crucified him. But we were hoping that it was he who should redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, today is the third day since these things came to pass. And moreover, certain women of our company, who were at the tomb before it was light, astounded us, and not finding his body, they came saying that they had also seen a vision of angels, who said that he is alive. So some of our company went to the tomb, and found it even as the women had said, but him they did not see.”

But he said to them, “O foolish ones and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Christ have to suffer these things before entering into his glory?” And beginning then with Moses and with all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things referring to himself."

I’ve bolded the relevant parts. The disciples clearly state that Jesus was crucified and Jesus answers them as bolded in the second part above. He does not say He wasn’t crucified, in fact He confirms what the disciples spoke of regarding His sufferings. He also revealed to them all of the Scriptures that foretold His coming although I’m sure the confirmation of all of those is for a whole other thread.

Jesus also confirms it again to all of the apostles (Luke 24: 45-49)

Then he opened their minds, that they might understand the Scriptures. And he said to them, “Thus it is written; and thus the Christ should suffer, and should rise again from the dead on the third day; and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. And you yourselves are witnesses of these things. And I send forth upon you the promise of my Father. But wait here in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high.”

What is the Muslim interpretation of the bolded question, not with regard to His suffering, but with regard to Jesus calling Himself “the Christ” and “before entering into his glory.”?

hi , jay
i said to you before that it’s only speculation , all what i believe is that jesus didn’t die nor curcified
all what i say now is speculation about records of humans in the bible , may be it correct and may be its wrong , i just share it with you

 

[slyboots]

Elwill
Mark 14:41… you said it says
a) “sleep on now, and take rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the son of man is betrayed into the hands of the sinners.” (Mark 14:41)

It actually says
He returned a third time and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and taking your rest? It is enough. The hour has come. Behold, the Son of Man is to be handed over to sinners.

And for any who think Jesus never said He was the Messiah…
Mark 14:62
But he was silent and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him and said to him, “Are you the Messiah, the son of the Blessed One?” Then Jesus answered, “I am; and ‘you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.’”

Matthew 28:12-16 is where the ridiculous story of them stealing His body came from…

While they were going, some of the guard went into the city and told the chief priests all that had happened. They assembled with the elders and took counsel; then they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers, telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came by night and stole him while we were asleep.’ And if this gets to the ears of the governor, we will satisfy (him) and keep you out of trouble.”
The soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has circulated among the Jews to the present (day).

Mark 16:14
(But) later, as the eleven were at table, he appeared to them and rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart because they had not believed those who saw him after he had been raised.

Elwill, Islam cannot beat that. Neither Allah nor Mohammed can equal it. God, the Lord of Hosts, came down from Heaven to be with us, He grew up, ministered to the people and bercause of all His love Our Lord was crucified, died and was put into a tomb. He rose from the dead. He never hid in Mecca or anywhere else. He ascended to Heaven. He is God.

 

[elwill]

Elwill
Mark 14:41… you said it says
a) “sleep on now, and take rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the son of man is betrayed into the hands of the sinners.” (Mark 14:41)

It actually says
He returned a third time and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and taking your rest? It is enough. The hour has come. Behold, the Son of Man is to be handed over to sinners.

And for any who think Jesus never said He was the Messiah…
Mark 14:62
But he was silent and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him and said to him, “Are you the Messiah, the son of the Blessed One?” Then Jesus answered, “I am; and ‘you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.’”

Matthew 28:12-16 is where the ridiculous story of them stealing His body came from…

While they were going, some of the guard went into the city and told the chief priests all that had happened. They assembled with the elders and took counsel; then they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers, telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came by night and stole him while we were asleep.’ And if this gets to the ears of the governor, we will satisfy (him) and keep you out of trouble.”
The soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has circulated among the Jews to the present (day).

Mark 16:14
(But) later, as the eleven were at table, he appeared to them and rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart because they had not believed those who saw him after he had been raised.

Elwill, Islam cannot beat that. Neither Allah nor Mohammed can equal it. God, the Lord of Hosts, came down from Heaven to be with us, He grew up, ministered to the people and bercause of all His love Our Lord was crucified, died and was put into a tomb. He rose from the dead. He never hid in Mecca or anywhere else. He ascended to Heaven. He is God.

hi . slyboots
just wanted to inform you that muslims believe that jesus is the christ and they believe that he ascended to heavin , and they believe either in his second coming

and i agree with you that allah can’t to be equal to God/jesus in christianity , our God dosn’t die and dosn’t cry and dosn’t pray or ask the help , our God can’t humiliate himself for any reason
and our God dosn’t need blood of innocent man to forgive us

peace

 

[planten]

hi . slyboots
just wanted to inform you that muslims believe that jesus is the christ and they believe that he ascended to heavin , and they believe either in his second coming

and i agree with you that allah can’t to be equal to God/jesus in christianity , our God dosn’t die and dosn’t cry and dosn’t pray or ask the help , our God can’t humiliate himself for any reason
and our God dosn’t need blood of innocent man to forgive us

peace

Elwill, you have told the truth in a few words to slyboots. That is the muslim’s belief. Our God does not die or cry or pray to any one… Well said.

 

[Jay53]

hi , jay
i said to you before that it’s only speculation , all what i believe is that jesus didn’t die nor curcified
all what i say now is speculation about records of humans in the bible , may be it correct and may be its wrong , i just share it with you

Thank you for the information. I must say that I am relieved that this is just speculation and that you don’t actually believe any of that.

If I may, just for my own clarification, I’d like to summarize what I think I’ve learned here about the Sunni belief of what happened to Jesus - please correct any points on which I am mistaken.

• Jesus prayed in the garden; was helped by an angel who came to tell Him that He wouldn’t actually be crucified (Not sure if I’m confusing some of the Ahmadi beliefs with this one.)
• Judas came and betrayed Jesus and was going to hand Him over to the chief priests and Pharisees
• Jesus fled with the rest of the disciples and someone else (possibly Judas) was actually arrested and tried and crucified.
  • As a corollary then, Sunni Muslims believe that any of the Gospels which record the Passion of Jesus are “corrupted” or that these events happened to someone else who responded to all of the questions as if he was Jesus. (i.e. John 18: 4-5 Jesus therefore knowing all that was to come upon him, went forth and said to them, “Whom do you seek?” They answered him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, “I am he.”; and all of the questions asked by Pilate such as “Art thou the king of the Jews?” (John 18:34) etc.)
• God deceived all of the people who witnessed the crucifixion including Jesus’ own mother to believe that He was crucified when He really was just in hiding for three days.
• Jesus reappeared after 3 days and went to His disciples to tell them that He had not really been crucified. He also appeared to Thomas and showed him nailmarks and a wound in His side which He did not really have because He wasn’t put on the cross. ??? (I must say that I am REALLY confused about this point and probably need a better clarification. )
• Jesus told His disciples to “wait here in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high” (Luke 24: 49) which didn’t mean the coming of the Holy Spirit, but actually foretold the coming of Muhammad.
  • As another corollary, I’m curious as to the Muslim view of Acts 2:1 which records the events of Pentecost and the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the apostles. Do Muslims believe this event happened and was recorded accurately?
• After all of this Jesus ascended bodily into Heaven where He remains until the 2nd coming when He will come back and kill the anti-christ.

 

[planten]

**Jay, only some Sunni Muslims will be believing that it was some one else on the cross. They do not have enough information, insight into the events of the cross. When they believe that Jesus did not die on the cross, they have no other way except to say that it must be some one else on the cross.

There is not one opinion of the Sunnis. Every one has different ideas. Some believe that bible is corrupted. Some believe that because they have the Quran, they do not need to read the bible at all. Some believe that bible is false. Some believe that it is forbidden to read the bible.

But the Ahmadis view it that there is no corruption (world wide, high level corruption) in the events prior to the arrest of Jesus and no corruption in his trial and there is no corruption in any verse of the bible about the event of attempted Crucifixion. Also there is no corruption in the events after Jesus got up and started walking.

Ahmadis believe nearly every word of the bibleNT gospels describing the events about Jesus. Only the interpretation may be different. Otherwise all is as described in the gospels.

Allah did not decieve the mother and the public. It was Jesus himself on the cross, as his enemies had wanted it to be. But the result was not as his enemies had wanted. Please keep exploring. Because Acsention is yet far away. The question is when and how did the acsention take place according to the Muslims beliefs. **

 

[elwill]

• God deceived all of the people who witnessed the crucifixion including Jesus’ own mother to believe that He was crucified when He really was just in hiding for three days.

While the Bible records the reaction of every bystander and passer-by, it fails to mention the reaction of Mary (pbuh) the mother of Jesus, because may be there was no reaction from her worth mentioning. Since she knew that the person on the cross was not Jesus, she stood by the cross and just watched the punishment meted out to the betrayer of Jesus.
Had the person on the cross really been Jesus, she would have reacted hysterically. Because it was she who bore Jesus with difficulty and delivered him with pains. No mother will be a mute spectator to such an event.

The Bible says that Jesus addressed his mother from the cross as “ Woman! ” (John 19:26). No mean person will address his mother as “Woman! ”. It is only because the person on the cross may be was Judas and not Jesus (pbuh) that he addresses Mary as “ Women!

• Jesus reappeared after 3 days and went to His disciples to tell them that He had not really been crucified. He also appeared to Thomas and showed him nailmarks and a wound in His side which He did not really have because He wasn’t put on the cross. ??? (I must say that I am REALLY confused about this point and probably need a better clarification. )

where is the confusion , bible records telling us that he shew him his hands not his nail mark , it’s you who suggest that he saw nail marks . it isn’t in the bible

• Jesus told His disciples to “wait here in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high” (Luke 24: 49) which didn’t mean the coming of the Holy Spirit, but actually foretold the coming of Muhammad.

i think that this verse refere to the protection of God for them

allah says in quran
14 - O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of God: As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God? Said the Disciples, We are God’s helpers! Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: but We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed.

• As another corollary, I’m curious as to the Muslim view of Acts 2:1 which records the events of Pentecost and the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the apostles. Do Muslims believe this event happened and was recorded accurately?

i don’t believe in it

 

[Jay53]

While the Bible records the reaction of every bystander and passer-by, it fails to mention the reaction of Mary (pbuh) the mother of Jesus, because may be there was no reaction from her worth mentioning. Since she knew that the person on the cross was not Jesus, she stood by the cross and just watched the punishment meted out to the betrayer of Jesus.
Had the person on the cross really been Jesus, she would have reacted hysterically. Because it was she who bore Jesus with difficulty and delivered him with pains. No mother will be a mute spectator to such an event.

Not necessarily - especially if she trusts in God. I don’t think the fact that there is no account of her reacting hysterically is proof of anything.

Jesus also told His disciples what was going to happen to Him, so I’m sure it was not a complete shock.

Mark 10:32-34
They were now on their way, going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus was walking on in front of them, and they were in dismay, and those who followed were afraid. And again taking the Twelve, he began to tell them what would happen to him, saying, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the Scribes; and they will condemn him to death, and will deliver him to the Gentiles; and they will mock him, and spit upon him, and scourge him, and put him to death; and on the third day he will rise again.”

The Bible says that Jesus addressed his mother from the cross as “ Woman! ” (John 19:26). No mean person will address his mother as “Woman! ”. It is only because the person on the cross may be was Judas and not Jesus (pbuh) that he addresses Mary as “ Women!

This is incorrect. Jesus also addressed His mother as “Woman” at the Wedding Feast of Cana. John 2:4 “And Jesus said to her, “What wouldst thou have me do, woman? My hour has not yet come.””
There is an explanation for why He addressed her this way, but I don’t remember it, and I don’t have time at the moment to look it up.

where is the confusion , bible records telling us that he shew him his hands not his nail mark , it’s you who suggest that he saw nail marks . it isn’t in the bible

Thomas specifically said “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and put my finger into the place of the nails and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

And Jesus shows them to him and he believes.

i think that this verse refere to the protection of God for them

allah says in quran
14 - O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of God: As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God? Said the Disciples, We are God’s helpers! Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: but We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed.

So it does not refer to the coming of Muhammad?

i don’t believe in it

You don’t believe that it ever happened at all or that it didn’t happen as recorded?

 

[Jay53]

This seemed like the most appropriate place to post this question since it deals with Jesus’ life before His ascension.

In light of the fact that Muslims believe either a.) Jesus was not on the cross, but was in hiding for 3 days before reappearing and someone else was crucified, but was so disfigured that even Jesus’ own mother couldn’t recognize that he was not her Son or b.) Jesus was on the cross, but did not die and was taken away to be magically healed and moved to India, what is the Muslim interpretation of Luke 23:42-43

(Regarding the “good thief” on the cross near Jesus.)
And he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.” And Jesus said to him, “Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.”

Was this actually the imposter making false promises to the thief - and how did he speak being so disfigured that no one could recognize him?

or

If you believe that it WAS Jesus, what did He mean in acknowledging *His kingdom *and “this day, thou shalt be with me in paradise”. Where was He planning to be that day that would be considered paradise? And does that then mean that the ‘good thief’ was magically healed too? If so, did he go to India with Jesus?

 

[planten]

This seemed like the most appropriate place to post this question since it deals with Jesus’ life before His ascension.

In light of the fact that Muslims believe either a.) Jesus was not on the cross, but was in hiding for 3 days before reappearing and someone else was crucified, but was so disfigured that even Jesus’ own mother couldn’t recognize that he was not her Son or b.) Jesus was on the cross, but did not die and was taken away to be magically healed and moved to India, what is the Muslim interpretation of Luke 23:42-43

**Perhaps some one will reply to you. I have explained already that it was Jesus himself on the cross. The replacement theory is not acceptable to the christians too. So your premise (a) above is no use at all. That is impossible.

So the only other answer (b) remains is that It was Jesus on the Cross who miraculously survived the ordeal of the Cross and God saved him from death on the Cross. He recovered and left the area like all other prophets of God do, like Abraham and Moses.

He himself had said that he had other sheep too. He said that he had to go to them. It was necessary that he go to them (to the lost sheep of Israel). He (Jesus) had said that he was not sent but to the lost sheep of Israel. Please find all these words in the bibleNT. You will be wiser.**

(Regarding the “good thief” on the cross near Jesus.)
And he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.” And Jesus said to him, “Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.”

Was this actually the imposter making false promises to the thief - and how did he speak being so disfigured that no one could recognize him?

**The good thief was right. He recognised Jesus very well. There is no doubt that it was Jesus himself on the cross. But there is another problem here.

Jesus told the thief that he (the good thief) would be in paradise with Jesus next day. But the church is teaching that jesus went to hell for three days. How is that possible. We Muslims do not believe that Jesus ever went to hell at all.**

or

If you believe that it WAS Jesus, what did He mean in acknowledging *His kingdom *and “this day, thou shalt be with me in paradise”. Where was He planning to be that day that would be considered paradise? And does that then mean that the ‘good thief’ was magically healed too? If so, did he go to India with Jesus?

Some answer is given by me above. Some other Muslim friend will also try to answer according to his/her own belief. At least we know that Jesus did not go to hell. That is sure. Jesus should never go near hell. He also could not go to India in one day. So he must have been nearby somewhere in heavens on Earth.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

So the only other answer (b) remains is that It was Jesus on the Cross who miraculously survived the ordeal of the Cross and God saved him from death on the Cross. He recovered and left the area like all other prophets of God do, like Abraham and Moses.

There is absolutely no evidence to support this idea. The NT confirms that Jesus died on the cross:

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. [Matthew 27:50]

And Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last. [Mark 15:37]

And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’” Having said this, He breathed His last. [Luke 23:46]

So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. [John 19:30]

The “swoon theory” came much, much later, mostly when Muslims had to balance the idea that Jesus was crucified with the idea that Jesus was resurrected. The fact remains that Christ died, was resurrected, seen by His apostles, and then seen by those same apostles ascending into Heaven. If this didn’t happen the way it did, then God is a wicked deceiver who allowed Christ’s own apostles to be misguided and fooled.

The good thief was right. He recognised Jesus very well. There is no doubt that it was Jesus himself on the cross. But there is another problem here.

Jesus told the thief that he (the good thief) would be in paradise with Jesus next day. But the church is teaching that jesus went to hell for three days. How is that possible. We Muslims do not believe that Jesus ever went to hell at all.

You should study Church Tradition, as well as understand the Trinity better - which I know will be hard for you, because you have admitted before you never studied the Trinity. Nevertheless, Tradition holds that the Wise Thief was the first one into paradise after the crucifixion, and it must be remembered that God was still in paradise as He was in hell - this is what Christ meant when he said, “You will be with Me in Paradise.”

 

[Jay53]

Perhaps some one will reply to you. I have explained already that it was Jesus himself on the cross. The replacement theory is not acceptable to the christians too. So your premise (a) above is no use at all. That is impossible.

I understand that you believe that it was Jesus on the cross, but other Muslims don’t which was why I included that option. You have to argue that with them.

So the only other answer (b) remains is that It was Jesus on the Cross who miraculously survived the ordeal of the Cross and God saved him from death on the Cross. He recovered and left the area like all other prophets of God do, like Abraham and Moses.