Muslim view of the Ascension of Jesus into Heaven

[famdigy]

Can you stop talking like that? If a muslim insulted a christian like that in this website he would’ve been banned however if a christian wants to do the same thing-nothing happens. These double-standards are amazing!

wasalam

Salaam bro, save yourself the grief and use the ignore list.

 

[jakasaki]

Salaam bro, save yourself the grief and use the ignore list.

Hi-ya Famdigy -

Well then, if Zaki uses the ignore list, pretty soon he won’t have anyone to answer… …

Now, back to the OP -

Since you represent Shia on this board, what’s their “view of the Ascension of Jesus into Heaven”.

Best regards
Pam

 

[elwill]

Muslims do not believe in the crucifixion, but believe in the Passion of Christ up to some point (what point ???). They believe He ascended alive into Heaven, but I still don’t understand at what point. ??? If elwill is correct, and they then defer to the Bible since the details are not in the Quran, then they would believe that Jesus appeared to disciples after His “non-crucifixion”, but then didn’t tell his disciples that he wasn’t crucified. ??? And, according to Muslim view, He was never put on the cross, but somehow had the nail marks in His hands and the wound in His side which Thomas verified. ??? Or do Muslims believe Thomas and the rest of the apostles were lying about these accounts - these are part of the “corrupted” Bible???

i think that jesus appeared to disciples after the curcifixion event not after his curcifixion . as for it is important to know that according to the New Testament itself, all of Jesus’ Disciples fled for their lives on the night of crucifixion. None of them witnessed Jesus’ crucifixion except for one, that is Saint Peter! He was the lone and only witness of the actual crucifixion event. read Matthew 26:34-35, 55-57, 69-75

and here you can read the translation of The Apocalypse of Peter
wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/noncanon/apoc/fgapcpt.htm

When he said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said "What do I see, O Lord, that it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughingon the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?"
The Savior said to me, “He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me.”
But I, when I had looked, said “Lord, no one is looking at you. Let us flee this place.”
But he said to me, “I have told you, “Leave the blind alone!”. And you, see how they do not know what theyare saying. For the son of their glory instead of my servant, they have put to shame.”

by the way , through your reading for this article you will find jesus says to peter
They do business in my word. And they will propagate harsh fate.

and jesus actually said to them that he vever curcified in luke 24

36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.

i think that God raised him up in that day , it was the third day from the event of crucifixion
as for it was mentioned in the same chapter

17 He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?”
They stood still, their faces downcast. 18 One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you only a visitor to Jerusalem and do not know the things that have happened there in these days?
19 “What things?” he asked.
“About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more,** it is the third day since all this took place.**

As a corollary question, do Muslims believe that Jesus can hear us? They do not believe the dead can hear us, but Jesus ascended into Heaven while He was alive - so can He hear us then?

not necessery , being in heavin dosn’t mean he hear us , i don’t belive that angeles in heavin hearing us becuse simply they are in heavin
we believe that only God who is all hearer

 

[ZAKI]

Hi-ya Famdigy -

Well then, if Zaki uses the ignore list, pretty soon he won’t have anyone to answer… …

Best regards
Pam

What? Are you trying to tell me that the majority of this site are anti-islamist d1ckheads? (pardon the french)

wasalam

 

[Jay53]

i think that jesus appeared to disciples after the curcifixion event not after his curcifixion . as for it is important to know that according to the New Testament itself, all of Jesus’ Disciples fled for their lives on the night of crucifixion. None of them witnessed Jesus’ crucifixion except for one, that is Saint Peter! He was the lone and only witness of the actual crucifixion event. read Matthew 26:34-35, 55-57, 69-75

This is incorrect. The scripture verses you have there refer to Peter’s denial of Jesus before the crucifixion.

Now there were standing by the cross of Jesus his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary of Cleophas and mary Magdalene. When Jesus, therefore, saw his mother and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, thy son.” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, thy mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home. John 19: 25-27

and here you can read the translation of The Apocalypse of Peter
wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/noncanon/apoc/fgapcpt.htm

When he said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said "What do I see, O Lord, that it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughingon the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?"
The Savior said to me, “He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me.”
But I, when I had looked, said “Lord, no one is looking at you. Let us flee this place.”
But he said to me, “I have told you, “Leave the blind alone!”. And you, see how they do not know what theyare saying. For the son of their glory instead of my servant, they have put to shame.”

by the way , through your reading for this article you will find jesus says to peter
They do business in my word. And they will propagate harsh fate.

I’m not sure what this is all about. It appears to be from a Methodist website. ???

Is this the same as what you are quoting above?

The Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter, not to be confused with the Apocalypse of Peter, is a text found amongst the Nag Hammadi library, and part of the New Testament apocrypha. Like the vast majority of texts in the Nag Hammadi collection, it is heavily gnostic. It was probably written around 100-200 A.D. Since the surviving text, although likely to have been translated from an original Greek version, is in Coptic, it is also known as the Coptic Apocalypse of Peter. The text takes gnostic interpretations of the crucifixion to the extreme, picturing Jesus as laughing and warning against people who cleave to the name of a dead man, thinking they shall become pure. The text disagrees with the Orthodox Church’s doctrine of Salvation. According to this text:

“He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me.”

Originally poste by elwill

and jesus actually said to them that he vever curcified in luke 24

36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.

i think that God raised him up in that day , it was the third day from the event of crucifixion
as for it was mentioned in the same chapter

17 He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?”
They stood still, their faces downcast. 18 One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you only a visitor to Jerusalem and do not know the things that have happened there in these days?
19 “What things?” he asked.
“About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more,** it is the third day since all this took place.**

No, Jesus actually CONFIRMS that He was crucified. You didn’t finish the rest of the scripture.

Luke 24: 25-27
But he said to them, “O foolish ones and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Christ have to suffer these things before entering into his glory?” And beginning then with Moses and with all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things referring to himself."

Notice that he did not deny that he had been crucified, nor did he mention any corruption in the previous scriptures that Muslims claim.

not necessery , being in heavin dosn’t mean he hear us , i don’t belive that angeles in heavin hearing us becuse simply they are in heavin
we believe that only God who is all hearer

OK. Obviously I don’t agree, but I respect your belief.

 

[jakasaki]

What? Are you trying to tell me that the majority of this site are anti-islamist d1ckheads? (pardon the french)

wasalam

Dude… back of the **

d1ckheads

** word.

This is the second time I’ve seen you post it.

Second of all little teenager… it was a JOKE!

 

[Jay53]

Bump

 

[ZAKI]

Dude… back of the **** word.

This is the second time I’ve seen you post it.

Second of all little teenager… it was a JOKE!

Er sorry.
(I did add the pardon the french bit after it though lollal)
LITTLE? im turning 16! do i seem little to you? (but then again u could be lyk 40 or something and in that case i WOULD be little)

wasalam

 

[Jay53]

Bump again.

Can any of our Muslim friends share when they believe Jesus ascended into Heaven and how that compares with the Biblical accounts of this event and the events recounted regarding Jesus’ life after the Resurrection?

Thank you.

 

[seraphime2008]

Zaki…
even though you think 16 is not little, your “cheerleader-ish” attitude confirms that.

 

[elwill]

This is incorrect. The scripture verses you have there refer to Peter’s denial of Jesus before the crucifixion.

Now there were standing by the cross of Jesus his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary of Cleophas and mary Magdalene. When Jesus, therefore, saw his mother and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, thy son.” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, thy mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home. John 19: 25-27

hi , jay
i’m very sorry for the delay , i was very buzy to answering you imediatly , as for i thought that i have to give myself some of time before responding

you have good proof for your view , i dmit
so we first need to look at what each gospel says about the matter:

Gospel of Matthew:
According to this gospel, the various witnesses included Roman soldiers, Jewish officials, passersby who mocked Jesus, and two men crucified at the same time. The only reference to followers of Jesus is found in Matthew 27:55-56, which says that many women were “watching from a distance”, and specifically names “Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s sons.” Unlike male followers, these women would probably have been allowed to watch without being arrested, provided that they didn’t try to interfere.

Gospel of Mark:
The account in this gospel is very similar to that in Matthew. In fact most biblical scholars believe that Matthew copied most of his account from Mark. In any case, Mark 15:40-41 also says that many women watched from a distance and specifically mentions “Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome.”

Gospel of Luke:
The author of this gospel also apparently copied most of his account of the crucifixion from Mark. The only mention of Jesus’ followers is in Luke 23:49, which says that some of them watched from a distance, but doesn’t give any names.

Gospel of John:
The account in this gospel differs considerably from the other three. It says that several women and one disciple stood “near the cross”, and that Jesus spoke to them from the cross. The women are identified as Jesus’ mother Mary, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clophas (or Cleophas), and Mary Magdalene. The disciple is identified only as “the disciple whom Jesus loved”.

The other three gospels never mention a “disciple whom Jesus loved”. They also say nothing about any disciple or any women being near the cross, or talking with Jesus while he was on the cross. Their accounts of the words that Jesus spoke from the cross are also completely different from the words attributed to him in John’s gospel.

All of this suggests that the author of John had a source of information that wasn’t available to the other gospel writers. This source is usually assumed to be the un-named Beloved Disciple himself, and a statement at John 21:24 seems to confirm this. Thus, this un-named disciple was probably the eyewitness for John’s account of the crucifixion.

But who was the source of information for the other accounts? Most scholars think that Matthew and Luke got nearly all of their information about the crucifixion from Mark, though they sometimes made minor alterations. Thus, Mark’s account is generally regarded as the original. And according to church tradition, Mark got most of his information about what happened directly from Peter.

If Mark got his information from Peter, and Peter got it from someone else, that would make Mark’s account third-hand. But it actually reads like a first-hand account. In fact many scholars believe that Mark also had another source of information
so we have to witness for the curcifixion , peter and unnamed beloved disciple , and two of them give different account for the same event ,

A more serious problem relates to what Jesus said while on the cross. What he says in John’s account is completely different from what he says in the other accounts. It has been argued that different witnesses to an event often give different descriptions of it later. Certainly that could account for minor inconsistencies. But in this case the accounts are totally different.

Questions have also been raised about the story of the spear thrust. According to John 19:34, a Roman soldier pierced Jesus’ side with a spear to make sure that he was dead. Yet the other gospels say nothing about this.

lastly , my point is that disciples probably didn’t witness the curcifixion

i will respond to your other points later , and may be if i found time now to respond i will .
just note that my point hear not to doubt about john , i just say that the disciples are not eyewitnesses

peace

 

[jakasaki]

~snip~…
Gospel of Matthew:
According to this gospel, the various witnesses included Roman soldiers, Jewish officials, passersby who mocked Jesus, and two men crucified at the same time. The only reference to followers of Jesus is found in Matthew 27:55-56, which says that many women were “watching from a distance”, and specifically names “Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s sons.” Unlike male followers, these women would probably have been allowed to watch without being arrested, provided that they didn’t try to interfere.

Gospel of Mark:
The account in this gospel is very similar to that in Matthew. In fact most biblical scholars believe that Matthew copied most of his account from Mark. In any case, Mark 15:40-41 also says that many women watched from a distance and specifically mentions “Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome.”

Gospel of Luke:
The author of this gospel also apparently copied most of his account of the crucifixion from Mark. The only mention of Jesus’ followers is in Luke 23:49, which says that some of them watched from a distance, but doesn’t give any names.

Gospel of John:
The account in this gospel differs considerably from the other three. It says that several women and one disciple stood “near the cross”, and that Jesus spoke to them from the cross. The women are identified as Jesus’ mother Mary, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clophas (or Cleophas), and Mary Magdalene. The disciple is identified only as “the disciple whom Jesus loved”.

The other three gospels never mention a “disciple whom Jesus loved”. They also say nothing about any disciple or any women being near the cross, or talking with Jesus while he was on the cross. Their accounts of the words that Jesus spoke from the cross are also completely different from the words attributed to him in John’s gospel.

All of this suggests that the author of John had a source of information that wasn’t available to the other gospel writers. This source is usually assumed to be the un-named Beloved Disciple himself, and a statement at John 21:24 seems to confirm this. Thus, this un-named disciple was probably the eyewitness for John’s account of the crucifixion.

But who was the source of information for the other accounts? Most scholars think that Matthew and Luke got nearly all of their information about the crucifixion from Mark, though they sometimes made minor alterations. Thus, Mark’s account is generally regarded as the original. And according to church tradition, Mark got most of his information about what happened directly from Peter.

If Mark got his information from Peter, and Peter got it from someone else, that would make Mark’s account third-hand. But it actually reads like a first-hand account. In fact many scholars believe that Mark also had another source of information
so we have to witness for the curcifixion , peter and unnamed beloved disciple , and two of them give different account for the same event ,

A more serious problem relates to what Jesus said while on the cross. What he says in John’s account is completely different from what he says in the other accounts. It has been argued that different witnesses to an event often give different descriptions of it later. Certainly that could account for minor inconsistencies. But in this case the accounts are totally different.

Questions have also been raised about the story of the spear thrust. According to John 19:34, a Roman soldier pierced Jesus’ side with a spear to make sure that he was dead. Yet the other gospels say nothing about this.

lastly , **my point is that disciples probably didn’t witness the curcifixion **
~snip~…

You obviously got this from an islamic site because the writing technique and use of English grammar is different from your “hand” written posts…

**Matt55 There were many women there, looking on from a distance, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him.

Matt56 Among them were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.

Mark40 There were also women looking on from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of the younger James and of Joses, and Salome.

Mark41 These women had followed him when he was in Galilee and ministered to him. There were also many other women who had come up with him to Jerusalem.

Luke49 but all his acquaintances stood at a distance, including the women who had followed him from Galilee and saw these events.

John25 Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala.

Vatican Bible**

Elwill, your post is “non-sense”, hogwash!!! and it is typical of something coming out of an islamic site -

One has to understand exactly where the apostles were standing and what their view of the Crucifixion was, who was where, who was standing where, who was talking, who was eating a banana is NOT important.

They weren’t huddled together watching a boxing match for crying out loud!!!

The apostles were scattered!!!

What is important is that there were witnesses to this - too bad islam and muslim will never understand. It’s tough living life with your “eyes shut from the truth”

 

[Jay53]

elwill;5399229]hi , jay
i’m very sorry for the delay , i was very buzy to answering you imediatly , as for i thought that i have to give myself some of time before responding

No problem! I am happy that you responded. I’m rather surprised that more Muslims haven’t responded. It’s not a trick question and I’m not looking for an argument or anything - I’m just confused about this point in Islam. I’m honestly just looking for clarification as to when Muslims believe Jesus ascended into Heaven and how that reconciles with Biblical accounts of the event and all of the events following Jesus’ crucifixion and Resurrection. I’m honestly just trying to find out what exactly Muslims believe.

Do Muslims believe in the same timeline as Christians - Jesus ascended into Heaven 40 days after the Resurrection. (or, for Muslims, the “resuscitation event” or however you refer to it.)? Or is it sooner than that - before He was crucified (or, for Muslims, it “appeared” He was crucified.)?

Thank you for your help!

 

[elwill]

Elwill, your post is “non-sense”, hogwash!!! and it is typical of something coming out of an islamic site -

One has to understand exactly where the apostles were standing and what their view of the Crucifixion was, who was where, who was standing where, who was talking, who was eating a banana is NOT important.

They weren’t huddled together watching a boxing match for crying out loud!!!

The apostles were scattered!!!

it dosn’t matter if i quoted from islamic site or not , what does matter is that i didn’t mention any islamic teaching , it’s all in your bible
what harm you if you discussed with me this view and proofed to me that thier view is wrong !!! ( i even didn’t represent any views)
i didn’t say that you are wrong and i didn’t say that john gospele is corrupted , i just raised some questions about the facts we have
after all my discussion is all about if disciples were eyewitnesses or not , untill now even gospele of john dosn’t mention that they witnessed it

i just wanna to tell you that you can’t blame quran becuse it havn’t details about history of jesus (pbuh)
In my opinion, no one ( even according to the bible ) really knows the ture answers. Because of the uncertainties

What is important is that there were witnesses to this - too bad islam and muslim will never understand. It’s tough living life with your "eyes shut from the truth"

they didn’t , even gospel of john didn’t mention that , it’s you own thoughts not the bible records

by the way i didn’t copied it from islamic site
gospel-mysteries.net/

 

[elwill]

No problem! I am happy that you responded. I’m rather surprised that more Muslims haven’t responded. It’s not a trick question and I’m not looking for an argument or anything - I’m just confused about this point in Islam. I’m honestly just looking for clarification as to when Muslims believe Jesus ascended into Heaven and how that reconciles with Biblical accounts of the event and all of the events following Jesus’ crucifixion and Resurrection. I’m honestly just trying to find out what exactly Muslims believe.

Do Muslims believe in the same timeline as Christians - Jesus ascended into Heaven 40 days after the Resurrection. (or, for Muslims, the “resuscitation event” or however you refer to it.)? Or is it sooner than that - before He was crucified (or, for Muslims, it “appeared” He was crucified.)?

Thank you for your help!

my personal view about what happend according to the bble account is that

before he is arrested he prayed to the Lord to save him from the anticipated persecution at the hands of the Jews; yet not as Jesus wishes but as the Lord wills.

“And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed…” (Matthew 26:39) What is his prayer to the Lord? The verse (Matthew 26:39) continues: “…saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as you will.”

1. First of all, while Jesus was awaiting arrest by the soldiers, what he tells his disciples is that

a) “sleep on now, and take rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the son of man is betrayed into the hands of the sinners.” (Mark 14:41)

b) “the son of man is betrayed to be crucified” (Matthew 26:2)

Jesus never said he will be crucified, but only reveals the intention with which he will be betrayed: “betrayed to be crucified”.

1. Jesus says in Matthew 26:24: “The son of man goes as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born”.

a) About himself, Jesus (pbuh) says: “The son of man goes as it is written of him ” ; goes and not dies.

b) About the betrayer he says: “it had been good for that man if he had not been born”, a nice way of wishing death for the betrayer.

Even after this curse by the messenger of Allah, is there a way that the betrayer will continue to live ? Thus, in the above verse, it has been determined as to who is destined to go and who is destined to die.

1. The betrayer Judas comes in to identify Jesus, when it is dark, along with a large number of soldiers , carrying lanterns, torches and weapons. The stage is perfect for the change of form of the betrayer and the betrayed, as more confusion follows: From Mark 14:44, Matthew 26:48 and Luke 22:47, which are quoted below, it is proved that Judas drew near unto Jesus to kiss him, so as to identify him.

Mark 14:44 : And he that betrayed him had given them a token, saying, whoms oever I shall kiss, that same is he; take him, and lead [him] away safely.

Matt 26:48 Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.

Luke 22:47: And while he yet spoke, behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him.

From John 18:3 to 18:6 which is mentioned below, we come to know of another enabling factor:

18:3. Judas, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests, comes inside with lanterns and torches and weapons.

18:4. Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should happen to him, went forth, and said unto them, whom do you seek?

18:5. They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus says unto them, I am [he]. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.

18:6. As soon as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground.

From verse 6 above, we notice one strange thing: as soon as Jesus identifies himself, “I am (he)”, the great crowd that had come in falls to the ground. As Judas stood near Jesus (after kissing him) and as the crowd fell to the ground along with the lanterns they brought, the situation was perfect for the exchange of faces, so that those who came to arrest him do not notice it. Then the soldiers, who came to arrest Jesus, take away Judas instead, while Jesus escapes along with his other disciples, who all fled the scene.

may be they all forsake judas , not jesus (pbuh) !!!

anyway , he hided for three days in someplace which i think may be mekkah , then returned and knew what happened from his disciples before showing to them himself , anyway he showed them that he is jesus and they recognized him as for they thought that he already ascended to his father , but he wasn’t yet ascended as he told them

afterall , thank for listenning to my thoughts , i don’t say that it’s islamic view nor i say that this is the pure true story , it’s just thoughts or different interpretation from the collection of records we have
as for me as a muslim , the only truth and the only fact that i believe is that he wasn’t kill nor crucified , he just ascended to his father

feel wellcome for further questions

 

[Jay53]

my personal view about what happend according to the bble account is that

before he is arrested he prayed to the Lord to save him from the anticipated persecution at the hands of the Jews; yet not as Jesus wishes but as the Lord wills.

“And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed…” (Matthew 26:39) What is his prayer to the Lord? The verse (Matthew 26:39) continues: “…saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as you will.”

1. First of all, while Jesus was awaiting arrest by the soldiers, what he tells his disciples is that

a) “sleep on now, and take rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the son of man is betrayed into the hands of the sinners.” (Mark 14:41)

b) “the son of man is betrayed to be crucified” (Matthew 26:2)

Jesus never said he will be crucified, but only reveals the intention with which he will be betrayed: “betrayed to be crucified”.

1. Jesus says in Matthew 26:24: “The son of man goes as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born”.

a) About himself, Jesus (pbuh) says: “The son of man goes as it is written of him ” ; goes and not dies.

b) About the betrayer he says: “it had been good for that man if he had not been born”, a nice way of wishing death for the betrayer.

Even after this curse by the messenger of Allah, is there a way that the betrayer will continue to live ? Thus, in the above verse, it has been determined as to who is destined to go and who is destined to die.

1. The betrayer Judas comes in to identify Jesus, when it is dark, along with a large number of soldiers , carrying lanterns, torches and weapons. The stage is perfect for the change of form of the betrayer and the betrayed, as more confusion follows: From Mark 14:44, Matthew 26:48 and Luke 22:47, which are quoted below, it is proved that Judas drew near unto Jesus to kiss him, so as to identify him.

Mark 14:44 : And he that betrayed him had given them a token, saying, whoms oever I shall kiss, that same is he; take him, and lead [him] away safely.

Matt 26:48 Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.

Luke 22:47: And while he yet spoke, behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him.

From John 18:3 to 18:6 which is mentioned below, we come to know of another enabling factor:

18:3. Judas, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests, comes inside with lanterns and torches and weapons.

18:4. Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should happen to him, went forth, and said unto them, whom do you seek?

18:5. They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus says unto them, I am [he]. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.

18:6. As soon as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground.

From verse 6 above, we notice one strange thing: as soon as Jesus identifies himself, “I am (he)”, the great crowd that had come in falls to the ground. As Judas stood near Jesus (after kissing him) and as the crowd fell to the ground along with the lanterns they brought, the situation was perfect for the exchange of faces, so that those who came to arrest him do not notice it. Then the soldiers, who came to arrest Jesus, take away Judas instead, while Jesus escapes along with his other disciples, who all fled the scene.

may be they all forsake judas , not jesus (pbuh) !!!

anyway , he hided for three days in someplace which i think may be mekkah , then returned and knew what happened from his disciples before showing to them himself , anyway he showed them that he is jesus and they recognized him as for they thought that he already ascended to his father , but he wasn’t yet ascended as he told them

afterall , thank for listenning to my thoughts , i don’t say that it’s islamic view nor i say that this is the pure true story , it’s just thoughts or different interpretation from the collection of records we have
as for me as a muslim , the only truth and the only fact that i believe is that he wasn’t kill nor crucified , he just ascended to his father

feel wellcome for further questions

So you believe that Jesus let someone else, possibly Judas, be crucified in His place?

If it was Judas, then you don’t believe the Gospel account the fate of Judas Matthew 27: 3-10

You don’t believe the account of the disciple Thomas where he examined Jesus’ nail marks and put his hand in Jesus’ side?

You also didn’t address Jesus speaking to the disciples on the road after His Resurrection where He confirms that He suffered “all these things” i.e. He was crucified.

 

[elwill]

So you believe that Jesus let someone else, possibly Judas, be crucified in His place?

yes may be

If it was Judas, then you don’t believe the Gospel account the fate of Judas Matthew 27: 3-10

may be the jew knew about the truth but didn’t spare judas , If they disclose the truth and spare Judas, they have to bear the shame of having failed to kill Jesus. So they decided to kill Judas and claimed to have killed Jesus.

but now , they face another problem: How to account for the missing Judas. So, their soldiers removed Judas’ body from the grave, while everybody was observing the Sabbath -Then they disfigure the face more, because that is the only thing that has the resemblance of Jesus. After this is done, he is now perfectly Judas. To account for the injury to the face and the head, they spread the news that is reported in Acts 1:18:

“Acts 1:18 Now this man obtained a field with the reward of his iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.”
Is it not enough that they have disfigured his head and face? What is the necessity to cut open his stomach and spread the news that: “ he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.”

So that, because of the nasty stench it would produce, nobody can come near the body and notice or find out the minor injuries that Judas suffered at the cross.

The cause of death should be very apparent from a distance, in order to avoid a close scrutiny by curious people.

The fact that all this was done by the Jews, by bribing the watchmen or the soldiers, is recorded in Matthew 28:11 to 28:15

“Matthew 28:11: Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and informed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.

28:12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,

28:13 Saying, Say you, His disciples came by night, and stole him [away] while we slept.

28:14 And if this come to the governor’s ears, we will persuade him, and secure you

28:15 So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.”

And to make it appear that it was really Jesus whom they arrested and to make the people believe that Judas was roaming freely after the arrest took place, they spread the lie that he came to the temple and threw back the silver coins he received as bribe from them: “Matthew 27:5: And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.”** That this verse is a total lie is borne by the fact that the other accounts talk of Judas falling headlong and his bowels gushing out. (Acts 1:18) **

You don’t believe the account of the disciple Thomas where he examined Jesus’ nail marks and put his hand in Jesus’ side?

i can trust this account , but i think that jesus tried to show him that he didn’t crucified or that he is alive , so that he examined his body and believed that he jesus himself and that he is alive

You also didn’t address Jesus speaking to the disciples on the road after His Resurrection where He confirms that He suffered “all these things” i.e. He was crucified.

why ? i don’t think that suffering refere to curcifixion , he suffered from the oppression
i believe that my prophet suffered also

 

[Jay53]

yes may be

OK. If this is what you believe.

may be the jew knew about the truth but didn’t spare judas , If they disclose the truth and spare Judas, they have to bear the shame of having failed to kill Jesus. So they decided to kill Judas and claimed to have killed Jesus.

but now , they face another problem: How to account for the missing Judas. So, their soldiers removed Judas’ body from the grave, while everybody was observing the Sabbath -Then they disfigure the face more, because that is the only thing that has the resemblance of Jesus. After this is done, he is now perfectly Judas. To account for the injury to the face and the head, they spread the news that is reported in Acts 1:18:

“Acts 1:18 Now this man obtained a field with the reward of his iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.”
Is it not enough that they have disfigured his head and face? What is the necessity to cut open his stomach and spread the news that: “ he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.”

I’m not sure what you are talking about here - what you believe the verse says and what part is your commentary/beliefs. Who disfigured whose head/face?

The verse I have (Acts 1:18) reads:

And he indeed bought a field with the price of his iniquity and being hanged, burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. And it became known to all the residents of Jerusalem, so that the field came to be called in their language Haceldama, that is the Field of Blood.

I’m not sure how the rest of your quote/commentary fits with this nor how it would contradict any Christian view of this event.

So that, because of the nasty stench it would produce, nobody can come near the body and notice or find out the minor injuries that Judas suffered at the cross.

The cause of death should be very apparent from a distance, in order to avoid a close scrutiny by curious people.

Who says no one could go close?

The fact that all this was done by the Jews, by bribing the watchmen or the soldiers, is recorded in Matthew 28:11 to 28:15

“Matthew 28:11: Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and informed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.

28:12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,

28:13 Saying, Say you, His disciples came by night, and stole him [away] while we slept.

28:14 And if this come to the governor’s ears, we will persuade him, and secure you

28:15 So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.”

And to make it appear that it was really Jesus whom they arrested and to make the people believe that Judas was roaming freely after the arrest took place, they spread the lie that he came to the temple and threw back the silver coins he received as bribe from them: “Matthew 27:5: And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.”** That this verse is a total lie is borne by the fact that the other accounts talk of Judas falling headlong and his bowels gushing out. (Acts 1:18)**

Again I am confused as to where you got this interpretation. Matthew 28:11-25 has nothing to do with Judas. It has to do with the Jewish people denying the Resurrection.

i can trust this account , but i think that jesus tried to show him that he didn’t crucified or that he is alive , so that he examined his body and believed that he jesus himself and that he is alive

Then you believe that Jesus actually had nail marks and a wound in His side? (Meaning Jesus was actually nailed to the cross and pierced in the side after His death.

why ? i don’t think that suffering refere to curcifixion , he suffered from the oppression
i believe that my prophet suffered also

That would be fine, except for the fact that the disciples specifically said “…and crucified him” (Luke 24:20)

 

[elwill]

I’m not sure what you are talking about here - what you believe the verse says and what part is your commentary/beliefs. Who disfigured whose head/face?

i think that jews knew that this man who died in the cross is judas not jesus , but they wanted to disclose this truth , but they face another problem: How to account for the missing Judas !!!
as for the resemblance of jesus was in the face of judas , not all his body , so they disfigured his face , so that anyone will look at him will know that it’s the body of judas .
then they cut open his stomach so that, because of the nasty stench it would produce, nobody can come near the body and notice or find out the minor injuries that Judas suffered at the cross.
The cause of death should be very apparent from a distance, in order to avoid a close scrutiny by curious people.

The verse I have (Acts 1:18) reads:

And he indeed bought a field with the price of his iniquity and being hanged, burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. And it became known to all the residents of Jerusalem, so that the field came to be called in their language Haceldama, that is the Field of Blood.

I’m not sure how the rest of your quote/commentary fits with this nor how it would contradict any Christian view of this event.

i think that it was what the author hears about him (stereotype) , it dosn’t make it facts
it was the comment of the author himself which be inserted into brackets in some versions to proof that may be it’s external comment

Again I am confused as to where you got this interpretation. Matthew 28:11-25 has nothing to do with Judas. It has to do with the Jewish people denying the Resurrection.

may the event itself happened but it was interpreted in wrong way by writer of mathew gospele .

Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and informed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.
what was done ?
may be that they told to elders that they finish the mission and take the body of judas out

then the elders assembled with them to make up another story and proclaim that His disciples came by night and take his body and they gave them money for the mission they finishd

28:12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,

28:13 Saying, Say you, His disciples came by night, and stole him [away] while we slept.

28:14 And if this come to the governor’s ears, we will persuade him, and secure you

Then you believe that Jesus actually had nail marks and a wound in His side? (Meaning Jesus was actually nailed to the cross and pierced in the side after His death.

why i have to believe that ? no i don’t believe that
when thomas mentioned nail marks , it was before seeing him , but there is no proof that he allready saw any nail marks

That would be fine, except for the fact that the disciples specifically said “…and crucified him” (Luke 24:20)

my answr was for your statement He (jesus) confirms that He suffered

i said to you that when jesus confirmed that he is suffered , dosn’t mean confirmation of curcifixion .
as for your refering to luck ,there is no confirmation from jesus at all , they just were tell the stranger about what they hear may be happened with that prophet in general

 

[Jay53]

i think that jews knew that this man who died in the cross is judas not jesus , but they wanted to disclose this truth , but they face another problem: How to account for the missing Judas !!!
—snip for length—

Do you have any evidence or support for this theory or is it just that - speculation?

Obviously since I am Catholic I find this completely unbelievable, but perhaps you have something historical or factual to base your story on. ???

i think that it was what the author hears about him (stereotype) , it dosn’t make it facts; it was the comment of the author himself which be inserted into brackets in some versions to proof that may be it’s external comment

Sorry, I didn’t follow this. What was inserted in brackets? I will have to go back and reread all the posts because I’m not following your line of thought at all.

may the event itself happened but it was interpreted in wrong way by writer of mathew gospele .
Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and informed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.
what was done ?
may be that they told to elders that they finish the mission and take the body of judas out
—snip for length—

Again, do you have any evidence that this has anything to do with Judas?

Given the context of that verse, the sentence, “Now while they were going, behold, some of the guard came into the city and reported to the chief priests all that had happened.” meaning the fact that the tomb was found to be empty.

why i have to believe that ? no i don’t believe that
when thomas mentioned nail marks , it was before seeing him , but there is no proof that he allready saw any nail marks

Here is the account with Thomas:

John 20: 26-31
And after eight days, his disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being closed, and stood in their midst, and said, “Peace be to you!” Then he said to Thomas, “Bring here thy finger, and see my hands; and bring here thy hand, and put it into my side; and be not unbelieving, but believing.” Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed. Blessed are they who have not seen, and yet have believed.”

Many other signs also Jesus worked in the signt of his disciples, which are not written in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

According to this account, Thomas witnessed the nailmarks in Jesus’ hands and the wound in His side. My question is, do you believe this account as recorded in the Bible or is this one of the “corrupted” verses?

my answr was for your statement He (jesus) confirms that He suffered

i said to you that when jesus confirmed that he is suffered , dosn’t mean confirmation of curcifixion .
as for your refering to luck ,there is no confirmation from jesus at all , they just were tell the stranger about what they hear may be happened with that prophet in general

I thought I had said that Jesus confirmed that He was crucified. If not, I should have.
Here was what the disciples said to Jesus when He asked what they were speaking about and why they were sad: (Luke 24: 20-27)

And they said to him, “Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a prophet, mighty in work and word before God and all the people; and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be sentenced to death, and crucified him. But we were hoping that it was he who should redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, today is the third day since these things came to pass. And moreover, certain women of our company, who were at the tomb before it was light, astounded us, and not finding his body, they came saying that they had also seen a vision of angels, who said that he is alive. So some of our company went to the tomb, and found it even as the women had said, but him they did not see.”

But he said to them, “O foolish ones and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Christ have to suffer these things before entering into his glory?” And beginning then with Moses and with all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things referring to himself."

I’ve bolded the relevant parts. The disciples clearly state that Jesus was crucified and Jesus answers them as bolded in the second part above. He does not say He wasn’t crucified, in fact He confirms what the disciples spoke of regarding His sufferings. He also revealed to them all of the Scriptures that foretold His coming although I’m sure the confirmation of all of those is for a whole other thread.

Jesus also confirms it again to all of the apostles (Luke 24: 45-49)

Then he opened their minds, that they might understand the Scriptures. And he said to them, “Thus it is written; and thus the Christ should suffer, and should rise again from the dead on the third day; and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. And you yourselves are witnesses of these things. And I send forth upon you the promise of my Father. But wait here in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high.”

What is the Muslim interpretation of the bolded question, not with regard to His suffering, but with regard to Jesus calling Himself “the Christ” and “before entering into his glory.”?