B
Booklover
Guest
Dont’t feel bad, Walid! Sister Amy does the same thing to me. When I ask her a point blank question, she replies with another question. She’s real good at that.
Vickie
- Status
Vickie
I
inJESUS
Guest
He stretches out the heavens like a veil, spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. Isaiah 40:22
If God streches them out, it means He expands them.
Here is a “miracle” known before Muhammad… after all, the apocrypha wasn’t his only source.
If God streches them out, it means He expands them.
Here is a “miracle” known before Muhammad… after all, the apocrypha wasn’t his only source.
P
planten
Guest
**Walid, there was no need to ask you anything. That was my mistake too because the topic had told everything. It says “Muslim who needs answers”.
So I am sure to assume you as a Muslim who is asking for some answers. So we better get down to some business and attend to your post #1. We hope some one will do it soon. I will also try. Please wait**.
W
Walid
Guest
Thanks
P
planten
Guest
** inJesus, the meaning “We made it vast” cannot be the correct meaning because that becomes past tense. That will be wrong. The word “Mousiou’n” carries the present and /or future tense.Salaam Walid and welcome
As an Arab, you know that Arabic words have different meanings. What is translated as “we expand it” could mean “we made it vast”.
So the better meaning is “We are expanding it.” or “We are making it vast”. **
P
planten
Guest
** I feel that it is necessary to cut a hand of the thief. If some one has a better punishment in mind then that should be told to us. Stealing something is a big crime. It upsets the society. If stealing is allowed, soon the robbers will follow with their robbery.
The robbers awill also need to be accommodated.**
** Killing is a crime. What punishment should be suitable for the murderer? The best could be a likewise punishment. i.e. death.**
.
That is a good complaint. It is wrong to oppress any one. There must be freedom of faith. The most that any one can do about any convert/ apostate is to leave him/her alone, i.e. not to have any dealing with that person. But it would be wrong ( crime) to kill any one.
**Yes, no harm. At least she is not neglected. In Islam, she is not required to earn anything. She has no share in the earnings. And no burdens (responsibility). If she gets somethign from the father or brother or son or daughter, that is very good. It is better than not having anything.
Here we must remain within the teachings of different religions i.e. Judaism, Hinduism and christianity. We should not compare the Islamic law with the modern legislated laws. The discussion here is about the various religions. So I will be interested in the teachings of other religions if they have anything better than the one that Islam has provided for the ladies.**
,
What should be done in case of adultery. Should the adulterers be punished without any proof? or they should not be punished at all? What should be done about an adulterer. Suppose that some one (4 persons) witness the act of intercourse. Then what should be done?
About the burning in hell of all non-Muslims is a wrong idea. We are no one to decide these things. Not all non-believers are kaafir. Only the Kaafir, who is an open enemy of Islam and other religions will burn in hell.
More later…
.
In Islamic TV I heard from clerics saying many times that a Muslim is always 1,5 time more intelligent than non-muslim, I don’t know how did they calculate but it is very stupid.
In a court of law as witness/ 2 women = 1 man so logically a woman is twice inferior in trust .
Answer to these questions and I will bring you others and these are just brain storming
Be sure I have nothing against Islam or any other religion but I want to be convinced to have the peace of mind.
J
Jay53
Guest
But in Islamic countries such as Afghanistan, is she permitted to get an education and earn anything for herself, or is she at the mercy of her husband and males in her family? Can she leave the house without a male escort to pursue her own interests?
D
dzheremi
Guest
Hello, Walid. Welcome to the forums. I hope that you will find the answers that you seek somewhere, if not on this forum, then somewhere else in your search. It can become quite heated around here, so I hope that no one will obscure your good questions with a lot of fighting back and forth. There are good Muslims here who I’m sure sincerely want to help you, as well as curious Christians (like me) and others that would also like answers to your questions.
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
An interesting attack on me, I find. Interesting, because I did not attack anyone.
Walid, I read in your first post that you accept some parts of Islam, and reject some parts. I asked you what you rejected–that’s a fair question, I think. I mean, if you reject that there is a Creator to our universe, that’s something significant. Or if you reject that Muhammad was a prophet, that’s something.
But you didn’t say you rejected those things. You actually had a completely different argument–you reject Shari’ah. Let’s just take one random example–women getting half the inheritance of men. Just one example.
I could attempt to convince you of the wisdom behind this and why it really is fair and so on. But why would I do that?
I have the opinion that we were created, that we as human beings are limited and dependent upon our Creator. I also believe that our Creator is All-Wise and All-Knowing, and that He sent us revelation.
The reason I asked if you believe in a Creator is not a dodge, it’s a very specific question in a process of discussing this topic with you–I don’t know why you refused to answer it, unless you think I’m going to trap you with it. I’m not that clever–I’m not very good at debating, either.
But here is my logic, just so you can see it:
If you believe in a Creator, if you believe in God, in Allah…
And Allah came down manifest and told you that women should get half the inheritance of men… what would you say? No? That you know better than Allah?
Really? Or would you accept it, even without knowing the wisdom behind it?
Personally, I see some wisdom behind it, behind all those things that you supposedly “reject.” But that’s not why I accept them–I accept them because I believe that my Creator has specifically mandated these things.
So if you actually believe in a Creator in the first place–what you reject is that the Qur’an is the book of Allah. And that’s where any discussion with you should begin.
If you don’t believe in a Creator, then there is a different discussion.
That’s why I asked you if you believe in a Creator. I’m not trying to dodge your questions–I really just wanted to understand you better. You didn’t need to attack me for that. Or say I didn’t answer. I can’t spent 24/7 on the forum, I have other things to do (like learning about the Book of Allah…)
So really I want to know your opinion. Do you accept belief in Allah but reject the Qur’an? Or do you even accept the Qur’an and just reject some rulings that you don’t like?
Walid, I read in your first post that you accept some parts of Islam, and reject some parts. I asked you what you rejected–that’s a fair question, I think. I mean, if you reject that there is a Creator to our universe, that’s something significant. Or if you reject that Muhammad was a prophet, that’s something.
But you didn’t say you rejected those things. You actually had a completely different argument–you reject Shari’ah. Let’s just take one random example–women getting half the inheritance of men. Just one example.
I could attempt to convince you of the wisdom behind this and why it really is fair and so on. But why would I do that?
I have the opinion that we were created, that we as human beings are limited and dependent upon our Creator. I also believe that our Creator is All-Wise and All-Knowing, and that He sent us revelation.
The reason I asked if you believe in a Creator is not a dodge, it’s a very specific question in a process of discussing this topic with you–I don’t know why you refused to answer it, unless you think I’m going to trap you with it. I’m not that clever–I’m not very good at debating, either.
But here is my logic, just so you can see it:
If you believe in a Creator, if you believe in God, in Allah…
And Allah came down manifest and told you that women should get half the inheritance of men… what would you say? No? That you know better than Allah?
Really? Or would you accept it, even without knowing the wisdom behind it?
Personally, I see some wisdom behind it, behind all those things that you supposedly “reject.” But that’s not why I accept them–I accept them because I believe that my Creator has specifically mandated these things.
So if you actually believe in a Creator in the first place–what you reject is that the Qur’an is the book of Allah. And that’s where any discussion with you should begin.
If you don’t believe in a Creator, then there is a different discussion.
That’s why I asked you if you believe in a Creator. I’m not trying to dodge your questions–I really just wanted to understand you better. You didn’t need to attack me for that. Or say I didn’t answer. I can’t spent 24/7 on the forum, I have other things to do (like learning about the Book of Allah…)
So really I want to know your opinion. Do you accept belief in Allah but reject the Qur’an? Or do you even accept the Qur’an and just reject some rulings that you don’t like?
I
inJESUS
Guest
Yes Planten that was a mistake.
I
inJESUS
Guest
Amy, Walid can believe in God yet question the Quran. He wouldn’t be the first Muslim to question if it really is from God so telling him that belief in God means he must believe in the Quran is not the best approach, in my opinion because he seems to question it even though he believes in God.
M
morning_star777
Guest
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Thanks for the explanation. As I said when I welcome bro Walid, I would also like to learn through the questions he asked.
Though I may not agree with Islam in principle and in many things about it, I thought I would be enriched if I know what it is as explained by a Muslim. Therefore your explanation helps.
If you would not mind but do not feel oblige, I like to pose further questions for some clarification.
If the cutting of a hand of a thief is from Islamic teaching, then how could there be better punishment? Sorry, I am quite confused by your statement.
My question is what is Islam’s position of a handicap in a society? I suppose a handicap due to the punishment he/she received, must be very humiliated as he/she advertises her crime by the sign (the missing limb) she/he carries with her for the rest of her life. What does Islam say about this?
Capital punishment is also meted out in Western countries though now many which have abolish it. Seeing this is religious punishment in Islam and not secular law, would the criminal be absolved of punishment in the next life considering that he/she already received what is due to him/her on earth?
Again my question is why should there be any better teaching for a Muslim other than what Islam teaches?
Just to recap the issue which is about women receiving only half of what men receive. Why does Islam not consider giving women equal share as men? This is hard for us to understand as we believe in the equality of both sexes even though they may not be made the same physically. A widow or a divorcee would have as much responsibility in her life as her man counterpart. So my question is why does she is given only half of what the man gets?
I suppose the condition of providing for four witnesses who witness the act of intercourse during adultery (or does it include rape?) is hard to prove in practice even if adultery is actually committed. Sometimes there may be only one or two witnesses and this may be short of the number required which result many adultery or rapes go unpunished.
Since Islam takes seriously the matter of adultery and rape, don’t you think justice may not be done because of lack of witnesses? I know secular law does not confine itself to only one type of evidence to convict a criminal. In my opinion that is more effective in dealing with crime as the criminal cannot escape easily from conviction as the prosecutor has different options to nail him/her.
Thanks.
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
Of course he can believe that. I was asking if he does believe that.
For my part, I prefer not to make assumptions about what people believe.
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
You know, I like you, so I want to make something very clear to you. Adultery requires four witnesses to prosecute, making it difficult for anyone to actually ever get killed for it–they’d almost need to be caught in the act in public.
However, and let me be very very clear here, since I think you have a right to know this:
**Rape does not require ANY witnesses for the rapist to be punished. **
C
cathopologist
Guest
So why do Sha’ria courts demands it as such?
S
Sam_777
Guest
Hello Walid and welcome to CAF 
,
You know that we can’t just interpret any verse in Quran by our own, we have to reference the authentic Islamic clerics about that, so let us see what the four authentic Quranic commentaries said about that wordلَمُوسِعُونَ
1) Tafseer Ibn Katheer:
2) Tafseer Algalaleen:
3) Tafseer Altabary:
**4) Tafseer Alkortoby: **
Please notice that NON of the four authentic commentators said that the word “لَمُوسِعُونَ” means expanding or keep expanding.
Furthermore read this verse from Quran, does it say that Allah is expanding!:
(Quran 2:115):
And again we cannot interpret Quran according to our needs or according to any modern Muslim cleric, we have to go back to the sources, however, if someone would like to interpret that literally and understand that it means “expanding”, then I would also interpret this verse from Quran literally which means that “Allah can have Son if he wants”.
(Quran 4:39):
Moreover, Muhammed probably took that verse from the Bible, as inJESUS have pointed out in (Isaiah 40:22):
However, if you are interesting in knowing more about other claimed miracles in Quran, then please open individual threads for each one, it will be interesting for you to know that there are no miracles at all in Quran.
And since you are a junior member in CAF, my advice to you is to wait till you know most of the members here before making assumptions on them, because most of them are senior members who are quite knowledgeable and when they ask you questions, IMO they ask for clarifications no more that that, so please be patient and welcome again to CAF.
,You know that we can’t just interpret any verse in Quran by our own, we have to reference the authentic Islamic clerics about that, so let us see what the four authentic Quranic commentaries said about that wordلَمُوسِعُونَ
1) Tafseer Ibn Katheer:
تفسير ابن كثير
يَقُول تَعَالَى مُنَبِّهًا عَلَى خَلْق الْعَالَم الْعُلْوِيّ وَالسُّفْلِيّ" وَالسَّمَاء بَنَيْنَاهَا " أَيْ جَعَلْنَاهَا سَقْفًا مَحْفُوظًا رَفِيعًا " بِأَيْدٍ " أَيْ بِقُوَّةٍ قَالَهُ اِبْن عَبَّاس وَمُجَاهِد وَقَتَادَة وَالثَّوْرِيّ وَغَيْر وَاحِد " وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ " أَيْ قَدْ وَسَّعْنَا أَرْجَاءَهَا وَرَفَعْنَاهَا بِغَيْرِ عَمَد حَتَّى اِسْتَقَلَّتْ كَمَا هِيَ .
(A)يَقُول تَعَالَى مُنَبِّهًا عَلَى خَلْق الْعَالَم الْعُلْوِيّ وَالسُّفْلِيّ" وَالسَّمَاء بَنَيْنَاهَا " أَيْ جَعَلْنَاهَا سَقْفًا مَحْفُوظًا رَفِيعًا " بِأَيْدٍ " أَيْ بِقُوَّةٍ قَالَهُ اِبْن عَبَّاس وَمُجَاهِد وَقَتَادَة وَالثَّوْرِيّ وَغَيْر وَاحِد " وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ " أَيْ قَدْ وَسَّعْنَا أَرْجَاءَهَا وَرَفَعْنَاهَا بِغَيْرِ عَمَد حَتَّى اِسْتَقَلَّتْ كَمَا هِيَ .
2) Tafseer Algalaleen:
تفسير الجلالين
“وَالسَّمَاء بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ” بِقُوَّةٍ “وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ” قَادِرُونَ يُقَال : آدَ الرَّجُل يَئِيد قَوِيَ وَأَوْسَعَ الرَّجُل : صَارَ ذَا سِعَة وَقُوَّة
(A)“وَالسَّمَاء بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ” بِقُوَّةٍ “وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ” قَادِرُونَ يُقَال : آدَ الرَّجُل يَئِيد قَوِيَ وَأَوْسَعَ الرَّجُل : صَارَ ذَا سِعَة وَقُوَّة
3) Tafseer Altabary:
تفسير الطبري
وَقَوْله : { وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُون } يَقُول : لَذُو سَعَة بِخَلْقِهَا وَخَلْق مَا شِئْنَا أَنْ نَخْلُقَهُ وَقُدْرَة عَلَيْهِ . وَمِنْهُ قَوْله : { عَلَى الْمُوسِع قَدَره وَعَلَى الْمُقْتِر قَدَره } 2 236 يُرَاد بِهِ الْقَوِيّ. وَقَالَ ابْن زَيْد فِي ذَلِكَ مَا : 24968 - حَدَّثَنِي يُونُس , قَالَ : أَخْبَرَنَا ابْن وَهْب , قَالَ : قَالَ ابْن زَيْد , فِي قَوْله : { وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } قَالَ : أَوْسَعَهَا جَلَّ جَلَالُهُ.
(A) وَقَوْله : { وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُون } يَقُول : لَذُو سَعَة بِخَلْقِهَا وَخَلْق مَا شِئْنَا أَنْ نَخْلُقَهُ وَقُدْرَة عَلَيْهِ . وَمِنْهُ قَوْله : { عَلَى الْمُوسِع قَدَره وَعَلَى الْمُقْتِر قَدَره } 2 236 يُرَاد بِهِ الْقَوِيّ. وَقَالَ ابْن زَيْد فِي ذَلِكَ مَا : 24968 - حَدَّثَنِي يُونُس , قَالَ : أَخْبَرَنَا ابْن وَهْب , قَالَ : قَالَ ابْن زَيْد , فِي قَوْله : { وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } قَالَ : أَوْسَعَهَا جَلَّ جَلَالُهُ.
**4) Tafseer Alkortoby: **
**تفسير القرطبي **
قَالَ اِبْن عَبَّاس : لَقَادِرُونَ . وَقِيلَ : أَيْ وَإِنَّا لَذُو سَعَة , وَبِخَلْقِهَا وَخَلْق غَيْرهَا لَا يَضِيق عَلَيْنَا شَيْء نُرِيدهُ . وَقِيلَ : أَيْ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ الرِّزْق عَلَى خَلْقنَا . عَنْ اِبْن عَبَّاس أَيْضًا . الْحَسَن : وَإِنَّا لَمُطِيقُونَ . وَعَنْهُ أَيْضًا : وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ الرِّزْق بِالْمَطَرِ . وَقَالَ الضَّحَّاك : أَغْنَيْنَاكُمْ ; دَلِيله : " عَلَى الْمُوسِع قَدَره " الْبَقَرَة : 236 ] . وَقَالَ الْقُتَبِيّ : ذُو سَعَة عَلَى خَلْقنَا . وَالْمَعْنَى مُتَقَارِب . وَقِيلَ : جَعَلْنَا بَيْنهمَا وَبَيْن الْأَرْض سَعَة . الْجَوْهَرِيّ : وَأَوْسَعَ الرَّجُل أَيْ صَارَ ذَا سَعَة وَغِنًى , وَمِنْهُ قَوْله تَعَالَى : " وَالسَّمَاء بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ " أَيْ أَغْنِيَاء قَادِرُونَ . فَشَمَلَ جَمِيع الْأَقْوَال .
(A)قَالَ اِبْن عَبَّاس : لَقَادِرُونَ . وَقِيلَ : أَيْ وَإِنَّا لَذُو سَعَة , وَبِخَلْقِهَا وَخَلْق غَيْرهَا لَا يَضِيق عَلَيْنَا شَيْء نُرِيدهُ . وَقِيلَ : أَيْ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ الرِّزْق عَلَى خَلْقنَا . عَنْ اِبْن عَبَّاس أَيْضًا . الْحَسَن : وَإِنَّا لَمُطِيقُونَ . وَعَنْهُ أَيْضًا : وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ الرِّزْق بِالْمَطَرِ . وَقَالَ الضَّحَّاك : أَغْنَيْنَاكُمْ ; دَلِيله : " عَلَى الْمُوسِع قَدَره " الْبَقَرَة : 236 ] . وَقَالَ الْقُتَبِيّ : ذُو سَعَة عَلَى خَلْقنَا . وَالْمَعْنَى مُتَقَارِب . وَقِيلَ : جَعَلْنَا بَيْنهمَا وَبَيْن الْأَرْض سَعَة . الْجَوْهَرِيّ : وَأَوْسَعَ الرَّجُل أَيْ صَارَ ذَا سَعَة وَغِنًى , وَمِنْهُ قَوْله تَعَالَى : " وَالسَّمَاء بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ " أَيْ أَغْنِيَاء قَادِرُونَ . فَشَمَلَ جَمِيع الْأَقْوَال .
Please notice that NON of the four authentic commentators said that the word “لَمُوسِعُونَ” means expanding or keep expanding.
Furthermore read this verse from Quran, does it say that Allah is expanding!:
(Quran 2:115):
وَلِلَّهِ الْمَشْرِقُ وَالْمَغْرِبُ فَأَيْنَمَا تُوَلُّوا فَثَمَّ وَجْهُ اللَّهِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ
And again we cannot interpret Quran according to our needs or according to any modern Muslim cleric, we have to go back to the sources, however, if someone would like to interpret that literally and understand that it means “expanding”, then I would also interpret this verse from Quran literally which means that “Allah can have Son if he wants”.
(Quran 4:39):
لَوْ أَرَادَ اللَّهُ أَنْ يَتَّخِذَ وَلَدًا لاصْطَفَى مِمَّا يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ سُبْحَانَهُ هُوَ اللَّهُ الْوَاحِدُ الْقَهَّارُ
Moreover, Muhammed probably took that verse from the Bible, as inJESUS have pointed out in (Isaiah 40:22):
إِنَّهُ هُوَ الْجَالِسُ عَلَى كُرَةِ الأَرْضِ وَسُكَّانُهَا كَالْجَرَادِ. هُوَ الْبَاسِطُ السَّمَاوَاتِ كَسُرَادَقَ، وَيَنْشُرُهَا كَخَيْمَةٍ لِلسُّكْنَى،
However, if you are interesting in knowing more about other claimed miracles in Quran, then please open individual threads for each one, it will be interesting for you to know that there are no miracles at all in Quran.
And since you are a junior member in CAF, my advice to you is to wait till you know most of the members here before making assumptions on them, because most of them are senior members who are quite knowledgeable and when they ask you questions, IMO they ask for clarifications no more that that, so please be patient and welcome again to CAF.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
You are very touchy, aren’t you? What did I do to deserve it? And you don’t have to be rude to unnecessarily bold your answer either. If you don’t want to respond to my post which is primarily directed to planten, please do not stress yourself.
In any case, any information is valuable to me because I use to dialogue with Muslims so that the last thing that they can say is that I did not ask Muslims regarding matters of Islam.
Why enact a law that cannot be enforced out? Being non-Muslim it puzzles me and I think it is not unreasonable to ask this.
So the four witnesses does not apply to rape. Well, noted then. Any reason as to why it is so? And you seem to contradict planten when you say you do not need witnesses to punish rapist. I mean I am talking about the justice of it.
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leopolis1
Guest
I have just one advice for you: leave the religion that was founded by a paedophile and murderer Muhamed and come to Jesus - God who become man for our salvation.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
They don’t, if they are true Shari’ah courts.
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