Muslim who needs answers???

[Sister_Amy]

You are very touchy, aren’t you? What did I do to deserve it? And you don’t have to be rude to unnecessarily bold your answer either. If you don’t want to respond to my post which is primarily directed to planten, please do not stress yourself.

I’m not really trying to be touchy or rude, and I’m really sorry if I came across that way. The reason I bolded my answer wasn’t to “yell” at you at all, but I wanted that single statement to be made very clear–not just to you but to anyone reading this thread. The idea was that if anyone just “skims” the page, then they’ll see that statement. Please believe me, I wasn’t trying to attack you or be rude. It’s a common misconception, but unfortunately a very sinister one.

In any case, any information is valuable to me because I use to dialogue with Muslims so that the last thing that they can say is that I did not ask Muslims regarding matters of Islam.

Well I hope you no longer claim that rape requires four witnesses, which is patently not true.

Why enact a law that cannot be enforced out? Being non-Muslim it puzzles me and I think it is not unreasonable to ask this.

I’m not sure what you’re referring to.

So the four witnesses does not apply to rape. Well, noted then. Any reason as to why it is so? And you seem to contradict planten when you say you do not need witnesses to punish rapist. I mean I am talking about the justice of it.

Perhaps if I “contradict planten” you may consider that he is wrong.

In cases of rape, if a woman has been raped, then her testimony to that fact is enough to accuse, and charge the rapist with the crime, and ensure that he is punished for it. Rape is not her fault, nor does she need to produce witnesses to the crime. That is the Islamic (and clearly the moral) position on the matter.

If you find anyone disputing this, I would appreciate it if you could alert me to them so that I may discuss this with them and hopefully clarify the matter for them as well.

It would truly be a travesty if a woman needed to produce four witnesses to prove a rape against her–a crime which her attacker would probably seek to do in private, anyway.

Yet that is not the case.

Please forgive me for any offense incurred by my post.

 

[cathopologist]

They don’t, if they are true Shari’ah courts.

I find this interesting. How does one define a ‘true Sha’ria court’ if the entire Muslim nation backs it up? Does it mean if the Sha’ria court practices biasness and injustice, then ALL the Muslim inhabitants are also guilty of biasness and injustice?

 

[inJESUS]

**Rape does not require ANY witnesses for the rapist to be punished. **

Ibn `Abdul-Barr (may Allah bless his soul) said

The scholars are unanimously agreed that the rapist is to be subjected to the hadd punishment if there is clear evidence against him that he deserves the hadd punishment, or if he admits to that. Otherwise, he is to be punished (that is, if there is no proof that the hadd punishment for zina may be carried out against him because he does not confess and there are not four witnesses, then the judge may punish him and stipulate a punishment that will deter him and others like him). There is no punishment for the woman if it is true that he forced her and overpowered her. (Al-Istidhkaar, 7/146).

Now reading: The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “The onus to provide evidence falls on the one who makes a claim, and the one who denies (the same) can absolve himself or herself by making a solemn oath to the contrary.”

If a woman claims she was raped, isn’t she supposed to bring evidence? otherwise there might be cases of punished men for a woman’s lie, no?

I know many people in SA who fear being liked by a local woman because if she doesn’t like the refusal, she might report “sexual harrasment” and innocent men’s lives might change because of a woman’s lie because a man rejected her.

 

[cathopologist]

I always found it fair if a woman was raped and then punished for it. Thats what she gets for showing a fringe of her hair or revealing her ankles or owning a driver’s licence.

Seriously (?)

 

[sedonaman]

Since Walid says he is a born Muslim, it would seem safe to conclude that he believes in God the creator.

It might “seem” safe to make that conclusion, but it would be wrong because Muslims believe in Allah, not God of the Bible.

 

[dzheremi]

Sedonaman, the RCC states that the Muslims strive to worship the One True God, so I am not sure how you can claim that there are others. They reject the Trinity while attempting to worship God, so they will forever be in error, but this doesn’t mean that there is a separate God “Allah” out there for only the Muslims, and then there is the Christian God elsewhere for the Christians.

Arab Christians also use this term “Allah” to refer to God, because it is the word for “God” in Arabic. Where Muslims differ, I have read on this board, is that some consider Allah to be the proper name of God as well, which seems crazy to me, but then I’m not a Muslim.

As a Catholic, I wouldn’t, and I don’t, have any problem worshipping Allah: Allah al-Ab, al-Ibn (Yesua, al-Masih), wa al-Ruhu Qudus!

 

[sedonaman]

Sedonaman, the RCC states that the Muslims strive to worship the One True God, so I am not sure how you can claim that there are others.

…

They reject the Trinity while attempting to worship God, so they will forever be in error, but this doesn’t mean that there is a separate God “Allah” out there for only the Muslims, and then there is the Christian God elsewhere for the Christians.

I didn’t say there were others. I said that it is wrong to assume Muslims believe in the God of the Bible, which you even affirmed in your second sentence.

The fact that Allah is not God can be determined by examining what the natures of God and Allah are. As you pointed out, Christians believe in a Triune God while Muslims reject it, hence, they reject Christ as the Son of God [never mind the Holy Spirit]. How can these two be the same deity? Also, ask a Muslim what the nature of Allah is, and he will tell you that his nature is unknowable; only his will is knowable. Ask a Christian why God created him, and his answer should be something like, “because He loves me.” I have been unable to learn what Muslims believe about why Allah created human beings.

Just because Muslims base their worship on the idea of one god, and we Christians believe in one God, we cannot conclude Allah is the same as God. There was a period in ancient Egypt when Egyptians worshiped one god, the sun god Ra, yet we would not say Ra and God are the same simply because Egyptians worshiped one god instead of many.

As a Catholic, I wouldn’t, and I don’t, have any problem worshipping Allah: Allah al-Ab, al-Ibn (Yesua, al-Masih), wa al-Ruhu Qudus!

Why not?

 

[meedo]

Ok for example if sb steals==>hi\her hand must be cut
if he\she kills==>his\her head
One timetheysay no body is obliged to be Muslim and after if sb leaves Islam he\she must be killed.

The fact that women have half the inheritance of men.
In case of an adultury need 4 witnesses and they shouldbe men which is nearly impossible and plus they have to see the act of sex, if you are no Muslim you burn in hell in the after life and nearly all Muslim theologists confirmed this, the hijab which is obligatory and is supposed to make women less attractive is not true since I am a man and I was very attractive physically many times to Muslim women wearing hijab and we were close friend for a long period .

In Islamic TV I heard from clerics saying many times that a Muslim is always 1,5 time more intelligent than non-muslim, I don’t know how did they calculate but it is very stupid.

In a court of law as witness/ 2 women = 1 man so logically a woman is twice inferior in trust .

Answer to these questions and I will bring you others and these are just brain storming

Be sure I have nothing against Islam or any other religion but I want to be convinced to have the peace of mind.

Hi,

In Islamic law, Thief should have his hand cut. That will simply deter people from theft. It is harsh , but it is effective. And since the punishment is in earth , the sin will be cleared in thsi life and he will stand before God on jusgement day without this sin.

In Islamic law , many interpretations of prominent scholars indicate that renouncing islam is a sin puinishable by death. Islam is not the only faith that prescribed that . It is just not practiced in other faith like Judaism because it is politically incorrect these days. In the past it was practiced by Christianity, now since many people in the Chistian world are not reaklly Christians then thsi rule would be outrageous. Saudi arabia is the only country that applies this rule in a mater of law. I think that muslims can live without this rule, and frankly whoever doesnt want to be muslim then i am happy they will leave .

Women have half the inheritance of men because men have all the expenses in islamic law . Besides , if you don’t think that thsi would be the case , you can donate extra money before you die to your daugter if you wish. It is allowed.

In case of adultry, it is an act of mercy to stipulate that 4 witness should be these. because as you said it is very difficult to have 4 witness seeing the very clear act of intercourse, this rule si mainly against the publicity of sin more than the sin itsefl. The goal behind it is that sin isnt an OK thing to do or somthing that should be widly accepted in society.

If you are no muslim , you burn in hell. Well, Christianity and judaism as well prescribe that.

The hijab is a ‘‘part’’ of a way of life designed to create a healthy relationship between opposite sexes. It is not THE way that will keep your urges down. And teh Hijab is NOT a head scarf. it has specifications that if yiou are not aware of hen it is useless.

Just curious, which country do you come from and where do you live now?

best regards

meedo

 

[meedo]

So why do Sha’ria courts demands it as such?

It doesnt. It is just western people creating somthing and believing it.

 

[meedo]

I find this interesting. How does one define a ‘true Sha’ria court’ if the entire Muslim nation backs it up? Does it mean if the Sha’ria court practices biasness and injustice, then ALL the Muslim inhabitants are also guilty of biasness and injustice?

You don’t need sharia couyrt for anything. If a women who is not married showed up pregnant one day , it is very much enough to say she was raped.

she will be regarded as victim

the police will investigate the crime and prosecute the attacker.

This is what Islam teaches , if some idiot in some backward place acts otherwise this si not the fault of Islam.

 

[inJESUS]

Meedo, in all sincerity, present the Islamic arguments as you see fit, without mentioning Judaism and Christianity to support Islam, because they don’t. Capital punishment as understood in Judaism was not, is not, and will not be how it is understood or applied in Islam, and the same applies to Christianity.

 

[R_not]

My boyfriend witnessed the beheading of a woman who didn’t have witnesses to her rape. That was in Saudi Arabia. The ‘idiots’ seem to be in all the countries where sharia laws exist.

Welcome Walid to the forums!

I actually have watched a video on some science and basically, we have left the zone of the earth and to do so means that allah made us priviledged. So, Americans - and also Russsians - are a priviledged people so I don’t know why they want us subjugated?!

koran miracles, koran leads the way in science

I also think you bring up a good point about taking a guy’s hand off if he steals. This basically marks a person forever and he can never be totally forgiven for a deed that might have happened if he was starving, or when he was young and foolish. Yes, there are some who steal pathologically, but our laws take care of the varying degrees of theft and we allow for redemption/forgiveness.

As for the 1/2 a brain in women. Well, I don’t see how that can be since women seem to remember the minutest of details, or remember something that was said weeks/months/years ago!

Our Western science has indeed found differences in the physical brains of women and men, but it just brings out that women have more pathways between the two lobes of the brain. This means that men can concentrate on one thing very well, and women can do more than one thing at a time very well. This could have been due to the fact that women have many kids and have to keep an eye on more than one thing while watching more than one little human being at a time while doing chores too. Men went out, and are mostly known for being the hunter/gatherers and that takes the single minded concentration to do that.

None of this means that the woman has 1/2 a brain, but instead it means that she is different in many respects or if you look at it from her perspective - men are different. The ‘man is from Mars and women is from Venus’ is a pretty good saying.

It takes two of the human race to carry on and to denigrate one while not knowing why is a questionable way to proceed through life.

Anyway, nice to make your acquaintance Walid.

 

[ricko]

For more on scientific facts go to the Apologist forum and look for the thread “101 scientific facts in the Bible”

 

[R_not]

For more on scientific facts go to the Apologist forum and look for the thread “101 scientific facts in the Bible”

Here is the webaddress so you don’t have to do a search and can just click on it - 101 scientific facts in the Bible

BTW - thanks for the heads up on the thread. I have only started reading it and it certainly makes more sense than the koran!

 

[Sister_Amy]

I always found it fair if a woman was raped and then punished for it. Thats what she gets for showing a fringe of her hair or revealing her ankles or owning a driver’s licence.

Seriously (?)

Such evil remarks should not be made even in sarcasm.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I find this interesting. How does one define a ‘true Sha’ria court’ if the entire Muslim nation backs it up? Does it mean if the Sha’ria court practices biasness and injustice, then ALL the Muslim inhabitants are also guilty of biasness and injustice?

Try looking up the definition of ‘Shari’ah.’

 

[Reuben_J]

Well I hope you no longer claim that rape requires four witnesses, which is patently not true.

I never did. I was only asking whether the four witnesses applied to rapist too.

I’m not sure what you’re referring to.

It’s about the requirement of four witnesses to convict an adulterous person. Time done justice to this question as I think Meedo has explained it quite clearly which I don’t agree with, naturally. And personally I don’t think it’s the intention of the author of the Quran.

You don’t progmulated a religious law only to expect it could not be practically followed. If you think adultery is wrong but no punishment is necessary then why not just says so. God’s word is truth which I think would not downgrade itself into child play of false threat. Beside by doing so, it will only allow the scholars to make their own interpretation.

Perhaps if I “contradict planten” you may consider that he is wrong.

I think generally posters here do not think much of planten with his peculiar way of one-way traffic discussion. Nevertheless he is a Muslim and it is not for me to decide who is right or wrong. You guys need to trash it out yourselves.

In cases of rape, if a woman has been raped, then her testimony to that fact is enough to accuse, and charge the rapist with the crime, and ensure that he is punished for it. Rape is not her fault, nor does she need to produce witnesses to the crime. That is the Islamic (and clearly the moral) position on the matter.

If you find anyone disputing this, I would appreciate it if you could alert me to them so that I may discuss this with them and hopefully clarify the matter for them as well.

It would truly be a travesty if a woman needed to produce four witnesses to prove a rape against her–a crime which her attacker would probably seek to do in private, anyway.

Yet that is not the case.

Planten mentioned about justice – that both the victim and the suspect must receive fair treatment. This is true enough. You would not want to punish an innocent person but the same time you want to provide justice to the victim, thus the rationale for the four witnesses.

If you don’t apply the four witness’s requirement for rape whereas it is clearly required to convict a criminal in other criminal cases, then inconsistency is rather apparent.

Please forgive me for any offense incurred by my post.

Your explanation is sufficient which I accept. No apology required.

BTW, since I asked for clarifications and they were given, I consider the matter as done. The rest are my personal opinions which you don’t have to respond to as this may not be the right thread to do so. And I don’t want to hijack Walid’s interest.

The first part of my questions, the cutting of limbs, has not been addresed the way I wanted it to. But never mind if it too much of a problem.

 

[cathopologist]

Such evil remarks should not be made even in sarcasm.

You’re right and i do apologize.

 

[cathopologist]

Try looking up the definition of ‘Shari’ah.’

Sharia (Arabic: شريعة transliteration: Šarīʿah) is the body of Islamic religious law. The term means “way” or “path to the water source”; it is the legal framework within which the public and private aspects of life are regulated for those living in a legal system based on Islamic principles of jurisprudence and for Muslims living outside the domain. Sharia deals with many aspects of day-to-day life, including politics, economics, banking, business, contracts, family, sexuality, hygiene, and social issues.
There is no strictly static set of laws of sharia. Sharia is more of a system of law, a consensus of the unified spirit, based on the Qur’an (the religious text of Islam), hadith (sayings and doings of Muhammad and his companions), Ijma (consensus), Qiyas (reasoning by analogy) and centuries of debate, interpretation and precedent.

As mentioned, the Shar’ia courts of Malaysia have been guilty of perversing its authority, and its backed by the Malaysian government, and its Muslim inhabitants. This is not limited to Malaysia alone. So who in the Muslim world can intervene to ensure such injustices do not continue?

 

[cathopologist]

It doesnt. It is just western people creating somthing and believing it.

Err, no. This is your perception. You think ALL Westerners are out to create a false image of Islam?