Muslim who needs answers???

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Nope, that was not Jizya. The tax collected by the Roman is almost like modern taxation. The Roman taxation was applied to all people doing business in the Roman empire including the Roman conquered region.
As with everything else with planten - he has had the Trinity, as best as possible, explained to him. He has had St. Paul explained to him, he has had the difference between being a dhimmi with no rights (to vote, being humiliated daily, limited religious rights with no ability to fix, build or convert buildings into Churches/Temples/etc, live in fear of their lives and the lives of their children because they could be beaten, raped, have items/land stolen from them, and killed.

planten and the other muslims on this site have misrepresented islam so often it gets tiring. But that is what their koran tells them to do - deceive us.
  • Intentionally preventing unbelievers from knowing the truth-> 6:25 6:110
  • Intentionally preventing unbelievers from Understanding Qur’an-> 17:45-76
 
The Kaisar was the title. not the name of the king of Rome. It was like the Pharoah’s of Egypt.
… I will ask you about the Kaisar mentioned in the bible [sic]. Pharisees asked Jesus “Was it legal to give tax to Kaisar?”. Jesus replied “Give unto Kaisar what is Kaisar’s and unto God what is God’s”… What do you say? Who was the Kaisar collecting tax from the Jews in the time of Jesus?
There was no “king” of Rome. The Pharisees were referring to the Roman Emperor who was Augustus Caesar at the time of Jesus. Augustus ruled from 27 BC until his death in 14 AD. There were no Islamic states at that time because this was over 600 years before Mohammed. Not only that, but since Christianity itself had not yet even been established, there were no “nearby christian [sic] states under the major influence of the christian [sic] ‘king Kaisar’ of Rome.” And the Roman Empire fell in 450 A.D., two hundred years before the time of Mohammed. So how could your dead “king Kaisar” and extinct “Rome” have influenced non-existent Christian states to “assemble armies on the borders of the non-existent Islamic state of Madinah”?
And what would you call that tax which he was extracting from the Jews? Would that not be Jizyah too? They were Jews living under the Roman law area.
It was not a jizya because it applied to everyone.*** The Islamic jizya applies only to dhimmis for the privilege of being allowed to go on living.*** The Gospel of Luke says the purpose of the census was so “the whole world” could be taxed. “The whole world” obviously means the world under Roman rule.] Augustus is known to have taken a census of Roman citizens at least three times, in 28 BC, 8 BC, and 14 AD. There is also evidence that censuses were taken at regular intervals during his reign in the provinces of Egypt and Sicily. In the provinces, the main goals of a census of non-citizens were taxation and military service. The earliest such provincial census was taken in Gaul [roughly present day France] in 27 BC; during the reign of Augustus, the imposition of the census provoked disturbances and resistance. None of these were based on religious beliefs of the conquered.

"Dhimmitude"

Violent jihad warfare [conquest] on infidels is the norm, not the exception, in Islamic history. Once successful, jihad leads to the imposition of humiliating, degrading, violent, and expensive oppression called “dhimmitude”, the institutionalized imposition of lowly status upon those who refuse to adopt Islam. Among the worst victims of jihad and dhimmitude have been the Jews and Christians who lived in historic Palestine. Only some of the more salient features of dhimmitude include: the prohibition of arms for the vanquished non-Muslims (dhimmis), and of church bells; restrictions concerning the building and restoration of churches, synagogues, and temples; inequality between Muslims and non-Muslims with regard to taxes and penal law; the refusal of dhimmi testimony by Muslim courts; a requirement that Jews, Christians, and other non-Muslims, including Zoroastrians and Hindus, wear special clothes; and the overall humiliation and abasement of non-Muslims. The dhimmi is obliged not to mention Allah or his apostle. Jews, Christians, et al, must pay the jizya [see below]. On offering up the jizya, the dhimmi must hang his head while the [Muslim] official takes hold of his beard and hits [the dhimmi] on his mandible. They are not permitted to ostentatiously display their wine or church bells; their houses may not be higher than the Muslim’s, no matter how low that is. The dhimmi may not ride an elegant horse or mule; he may ride a donkey only if the saddlework is of wood, and he must ride side-saddle; and of course, he is not allowed to carry arms of any kind. He may not walk on the good part of the road. They [the dhimmis] have to wear an identifying patch, even women, and even in the public baths dhimmis must hold their tongue. If a dhimmi strikes a Muslim, the whole dhimmi community could be wiped out.
**
The Protection Racket**
The essential condition imposed upon the non-Muslim dhimmi "tributaries” subjugated by jihad, is captured with this laconic statement, "The vanquished may purchase their lives by the payment of tribute.”

The [non-Muslim] enemy makes a payment in return for peace and reconciliation. If the payment ceases, then the jihad resumes. The nature of such “protection”, i.e., a blood ransom, is reinforced in this definition of jizya written by E.W. Lane, based on a careful analysis of the etymology of the term:

“The tax that is taken from the non-Muslim subjects of a Muslim government whereby they ratify the compact that assures them protection, as though it were compensation for not being slain”.

[And we were told that "Jim Crow” laws were humiliating!]

Modern Dhimmitude
The worst kind of dhimmitude is the voluntary kind, whereby the non-Muslim subjects HIMSELF to dhimmitude. A good example of this is the security inspections at our airports: we subject ourselves to this degrading process out of fear of the "superior” Muslim. Another is our refusal to profile Muslims as the most likely to be terrorists: we must not offend the Muslim.
But the worst of the worst is the breast-beating Christian. You do not respect him; no one respects one who licks the boot that kicks him. You might like him because he’s a good dhimmi, but not respect.
 
The point being that if England were being attacked she would have the right to defend herself. I used Scotland as an example - if you want to pretend it was the French, or Dutch, or whomever - so be it.

🤷
 
… And to think I was defending Islam on another thread, and I still feel that way but there are some who make that tolerance difficult.
I just realized I had the opportunity to defend Islam on this thread a few pages back. Expanding one’s knowledge is always a good thing and, just because someone shows interest in someone elses faith, doesn’t mean they are ready to convert. They are just expanding their knowledge and, possibly, trying to find common ground.
 
Perhaps you do not know about a dhimmi. The nature of that tax was good for the people of the book. It protected them from any aggression and they could live peacefully in the area of activity of Islam. At the same time the majority christians would know that they should not harm any few muslims living amongst them.
This kind of reasoning used to take place in the school playground back in the day. Give the bully your lunch money, and he & his friends won’t hit you. And the presence of his friends reminded you not to harm any few bullies at school with you.
 
I considered that. I also detect a slight twinge of non-Muslim = “Christian” in some of his posts, because the events he cites are way out of actual chronological sequence. You will also note that he switched the meaning of the jizya from a Muslim tax on dhimmis [to “protect” them] to one collected by the “Roman ‘Christian’ king” in Jesus’ lifetime!] to protect Muslims. Staying on point is not exactly a quality of Muslim debaters. They also make liberal use of the tu quoque fallacy, to which breast-beating Christians bow and scrape out of politically motivated guilt. These are just some of the games Muslims play to avoid embarrassing Islamic history or doctrine. *

I have concluded that Islamic ideology is what I term a “ThOpp” ideology: To get truth, Think Opposite of what it says.*
 
The actual quote is “Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s and give unto God what is God’s” as in Matthew 22: 16 - 21
16And they sent their disciples to Him, along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that You are truthful and teach the way of God in truth, and defer to no one; for You are not partial to any.
17"Tell us then, what do You think? Is it lawful to give a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?”
18But Jesus perceived their malice, and said, “Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites?
19"Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax.” And they brought Him a denarius.
20And He said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?”
21They said to Him, “Caesar’s.” Then He said to them, “Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God the things that are God’s.”

Sad, so Sad…I am truly sorry you have such a hateful attitude in reacting to another Muslim having questions about other faiths. And to think I was defending Islam on another thread, and I still feel that way but there are some who make that tolerance difficult.
**PP, thank you for this post. The enemies of Jesus were trying to trap Jesus into something illegal. But he very wisely avoided the issue. We know all about it. that was the only good reply to those people.

The problem is that some one (sedonaman) was questioning my knowledge and said that there was no Kaisar. I only spelled that word as Kaisar and not as Caesar. Otherwise I was right in saying that Kaisar was very much there at the time of Jesus.
He was collecting some tax fromt he Jews too.

J C has cleverly tried to divert the kind of tax. I am sure it was some kind of tax from non-Roman citizen quite like a non-Muslim in Muslim influence area.

I would ask sedonaman again about the Kaisar of Rome. And I ask about the tax that Jews were paying. Why they were paying that tax?**
 
**PP, thank you for this post. The enemies of Jesus were trying to trap Jesus into something illegal. But he very wisely avoided the issue. We know all about it. that was the only good reply to those people.

The problem is that some one (sedonaman) was questioning my knowledge and said that there was no Kaisar. I only spelled that word as Kaisar and not as Caesar. Otherwise I was right in saying that Kaisar was very much there at the time of Jesus.
He was collecting some tax fromt he Jews too.

J C has cleverly tried to divert the kind of tax. I am sure it was some kind of tax from non-Roman citizen quite like a non-Muslim in Muslim influence area.

I would ask sedonaman again about the Kaisar of Rome. And I ask about the tax that Jews were paying. Why they were paying that tax?**
First of all, you are welcome for the post. You also appear to have a pretty good grasp on the situation Jesus was in and why he had to answer the way he did.

I have a question. Is english not your first language is it? Kaisar (for us spelled Kaiser) was, at one time, what the king of Germany was called which is probably were some of the confusion. Fortunately, I noticed it right away and was hoping you would take the post as a help, not criticism.

Since both faiths start with Abraham, Jews and Muslims have some similarities and Christianity is a continuation, so to speak, from both with Jesus as the new covenant between us and God. I also understand that Muslims have a different belief of just who Jesus was. I have known some very nice and wonderful Arab Muslims and have learned lots from them (I love middle eastern food)and used to give a gold fish to a friend of mine for, I think it was Ramadan but I could be mistaken, it was in the fall. I hope you can learn from us just as we can learn from you. I do have one suggestion for you, though. You may want to rethink the size of your print. It makes it seem like you are yelling or very angry. Just a thought.
 
First of all, you are welcome for the post. You also appear to have a pretty good grasp on the situation Jesus was in and why he had to answer the way he did.

I have a question. Is english not your first language is it? Kaisar (for us spelled Kaiser) was, at one time, what the king of Germany was called which is probably were some of the confusion. Fortunately, I noticed it right away and was hoping you would take the post as a help, not criticism.

Since both faiths start with Abraham, Jews and Muslims have some similarities and Christianity is a continuation, so to speak, from both with Jesus as the new covenant between us and God. I also understand that Muslims have a different belief of just who Jesus was. I have known some very nice and wonderful Arab Muslims and have learned lots from them (I love middle eastern food)and used to give a gold fish to a friend of mine for, I think it was Ramadan but I could be mistaken, it was in the fall. I hope you can learn from us just as we can learn from you. I do have one suggestion for you, though. You may want to rethink the size of your print. It makes it seem like you are yelling or very angry. Just a thought.
**PP, thanks for your corrections and advice. English is not my first language. I love Jesus and his mother very dearly. The christians here try to involve us in the different name puzzles such as: Allah is not God. Jesus is not Isa. And now Kaisar… Of course I meant the Roman ruler (or rulers). The person is mentioned in the bible NT too.

I know there has been a king in Germany (During first world war? or before that). He was also Kaisar, of Germany.

The discussion was about Jizyah. I noted that Jews were paying tax to Kaisar (again Kaisar, I cannot correctly spell the other name)… I wondered why they were paying tax under Roman rule (under alien rule)? It could be something similar to the Jizyah. Only J C replied to that question.

About the larger font, it is for myself. I cannot read fine print. But I have to read all the others posts in fine print. I do not complain.

There is no anger. I am completely calm, in fact I love all here and every where, no hatred or anger. I remember how I was loved in England and Germany and France by the christians. It used to be a joy during christmas and new year festivities. I fully participated in those celebrations as much as could be good (allowed) for any Muslims.

I believe that All Muslims and Jews and Christians who believe in a God and the last day and they do good deeds, they have nothing to fear in the future and nothing to mourn for the past. Please see verse 2:62 of the Quran.

We only need to be good Muslims and Jews and Christians and good Hindus and Budhists. To be good would at least mean not to harm or disgrace any one.

More later. Thanks.**
 
**PP, thanks for your corrections and advice. English is not my first language. I love Jesus and his mother very dearly. The christians here try to involve us in the different name puzzles such as: Allah is not God. Jesus is not Isa. And now Kaisar… Of course I meant the Roman ruler (or rulers). The person is mentioned in the bible NT too.

I know there has been a king in Germany (During first world war? or before that). He was also Kaisar, of Germany.

The discussion was about Jizyah. I noted that Jews were paying tax to Kaisar (again Kaisar, I cannot correctly spell the other name)… I wondered why they were paying tax under Roman rule (under alien rule)? It could be something similar to the Jizyah. Only J C replied to that question.

About the larger font, it is for myself. I cannot read fine print. But I have to read all the others posts in fine print. I do not complain.

There is no anger. I am completely calm, in fact I love all here and every where, no hatred or anger. I remember how I was loved in England and Germany and France by the christians. It used to be a joy during christmas and new year festivities. I fully participated in those celebrations as much as could be good (allowed) for any Muslims.

I believe that All Muslims and Jews and Christians who believe in a God and the last day and they do good deeds, they have nothing to fear in the future and nothing to mourn for the past. Please see verse 2:62 of the Quran.

We only need to be good Muslims and Jews and Christians and good Hindus and Budhists. To be good would at least mean not to harm or disgrace any one.

More later. Thanks.**
Allah is not the God of Israel - that is what we are saying - it is the god of mohammed’s pagan religion combined with his wants and desires. One of his desires being that islam be a part of Judaism and Christianity - which it is not.

You quote a Meccan surah which shows us that it is a weak surah that is replaced by the stronger surahs of the Medina period which says the opposite.

And why is this? Because most of us - well, most who have learned about islam - know that allah is not a god, nor is mohammed a prophet. Unlike you who have not proven that the Bible was corrupted, we have proven time and again that mohammed was not a prophet.

He changed the message of the prophets in the Bible, and he had to redefine sin because he broke so many of the 10 commandments. That last one is a major change in the message!

And there are other items in islamic theology
  • predestination
  • good works (mohammed forgot to say how many or if it is even worth it if there is predestination)
  • 7 heavens
  • differences in Creation/Genesis
  • differences in Jesus teachings and Jesus Himself
Warnings of false prophets

From Judaism:
“Assuredly, I am going to deal with the prophets - declares the Lord - who steal my words from one another. I am going to deal with those who prophesy lying dreams - declares the Lord - who relates them to lead my people astray with their reckless lies when I did not send them or command them. They do this people no good - declares the Lord.”
(Tanakh - Jeremiah: 23:30, 32)

From Christianity:
“For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And, no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore, it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.” (2 Corinthians 11:13-15)

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world…” (1 John 5:1-11)

“And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.” (Mt 24:11)
 
I’m sorry but I really have to say this.

There are those out there who have a preconceived idea of what Islam is about because of the attack in the US of the twin towers, and other situations like that. These acts were committed by a few extremist and have less to do with Islam than it has to do with power and politics. Islam, in and of itself, does not promote violence and the sooner people realize that, the better we will all be. It is not the Christian way to compartmentalize an entire group because of a few, and it is definitely NOT the Catholic way :tsktsk: :getholy:
We have to try to understand our differences and work with them. We also have to grasp and cherish the things we have in common. Criticizing another’s faith does not help, especially if there is a slanted veiw of that faith. If one cannot set aside their prejudice, then perhaps a thread trying to answer the questions of Muslims is not the place for you. This all started because someone wanted to find out more information about how other people believe and practice this belief and, while I have made my share of mistakes, I would hope and pray it stays that way and does not become an avenue for some to ridicule and drive those questions away.

OK, I’m done
 
**
About the larger font, it is for myself. I cannot read fine print. But I have to read all the others posts in fine print. I do not complain.
**
To Planten,
If you have trouble with fine print (as I do), try the control key and the + key at the same time. With each press, it will enlarge the letters a little more. If you use a Mac, use the Apple key with the + key.

Hope that helps!
 
To Planten,
If you have trouble with fine print (as I do), try the control key and the + key at the same time. With each press, it will enlarge the letters a little more. If you use a Mac, use the Apple key with the + key.

Hope that helps!
Thanks for the advice. i am not expert on computers. I cannot understand how to press three keys for each letter i.e contol key and plus key and then the letter key. But i will soon try it. Thanks.
 
marika, I have typed your name only by your method. Do I see any difference? There is no advantage.Letters are still small.
 
Hi Planten,

I sent you a PM with clarification, to avoid derailing this thread.
 
I’m sorry but I really have to say this.

There are those out there who have a preconceived idea of what Islam is about because of the attack in the US of the twin towers, and other situations like that. These acts were committed by a few extremist and have less to do with Islam than it has to do with power and politics. Islam, in and of itself, does not promote violence and the sooner people realize that, the better we will all be. It is not the Christian way to compartmentalize an entire group because of a few, and it is definitely NOT the Catholic way :tsktsk: :getholy:
We have to try to understand our differences and work with them. We also have to grasp and cherish the things we have in common. Criticizing another’s faith does not help, especially if there is a slanted veiw of that faith. If one cannot set aside their prejudice, then perhaps a thread trying to answer the questions of Muslims is not the place for you. This all started because someone wanted to find out more information about how other people believe and practice this belief and, while I have made my share of mistakes, I would hope and pray it stays that way and does not become an avenue for some to ridicule and drive those questions away.

OK, I’m done
Well, we don’t judge a whole group - we are not holding them accountable for their silence or support (muslim charities), or deception about islam. No one is condemning them, we are just aware of what they are doing and that is not a sin.

When a religion follows a guy such as mohammed who told them more often than not to wage jihad against the non-believers and smite their necks and do other atrocious things against them, or to deceive us when it is to their advantage to do so - there is a big problem.

And they do deceive us.
  • They don’t tell us that our lands are the lands of war (dar al harb)
  • they don’t tell us that they are supposed to deceive us even to a point that they can pretend to be our friends
  • they don’t tell us that the greater jihad is the violent kind and instead tell us that the greater jihad is ‘the inner struggle’ which is a total deception!
  • they don’t tell us that the weaker (meccan) surahs are abrogated with the stronger (medina) surahs that are much more violent against us
  • they don’t tell us that their ultimate goal is to make islam dominate and not to necessarily kill or convert us but at least to subjugate us and make us feel humiliated and have no rights.
those are the main points, there are many others especially if one is ‘not of the book’.

You can say what you want about islam and I find your name ironic since mohammed blamed a puppy when the angel Gabriel didn’t visit him as he said he would. That is why dogs are shunned in islam and black dogs especially.

kill the dogs
When you read the Sira, you find that violence fills its pages. The first form of violence is verbal. After Mohammed’s first revelation, it only takes 12 pages until there is a fight and a Muslim bloodies a kafir. From that point on, Mohammed argues, threatens, curses, preaches, and condemns. So 98% of the text of Mohammed’s prophecy contains verbal violence against the kafirs (unbelievers).
From measuring mohammed and dhimmitude
 
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