Muslims and Christ Divinity

[True_Faith50]

God the Father. BTW, Jesus doesn’t die as “a god.” There is only One God; God is “echad” in the Hebrew. The Islamic understanding of the Trinity is often lacking the deeper theological explanations. If you want to discuss the Trinity, you’ve come to the right place.

We believe in One God, Three Persons: God the Son, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit. 1 x 1 x 1 = 1 Are you wanting to discuss the Trinity?

What kind of language do you speak! If there is 3 identical triplex. If one of them commit murder will you hang the other?

 

[Kliska]

What kind of language do you speak! If there is 3 identical triplex. If one of them commit murder will you hang the other?

Yeah… If you are asking an actual question, please be clearer. Are you saying that you believe God the Father killed the Son? Jesus Himself talks about laying His own life down. So, are you wanting to discuss the Trinity or just express your POV? You’re losing me on your point here.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

True faith your story lacks a comprehensive understanding of what it means that God died. Angels can die should God choose not to sustain them but otherwise, for all intention purposes they are immortal. What does it mean when the Christian missionary says God has died. That divinity itself has ceased to have life? No, that has not been the Christian position. THe HUmanity died, not the divinity, this is the doctrine of the hypostatic union and muslims should at this point be familiar with it. If you seek to criticise Christianity do so, but at least understand your opponents position.

Now, I dissagree with the assertion that Jesus had to die in his divinity in order to make salvation meaningul. Are you God that you can demand God’s sacrifice be higher? Christ was perfect in everything, he was sinless, he was the creator of heaven and earth and he took on humanity and that humanity died. God deemed it the correct price, the correct price he paid for humanity. Thats the point, man of their own effort can accomplish nothing, we as Christians place salvation firmly in the hands of God. God is the primary cause of salvation and we either react positively to that reaction or reject it. You have chosen to reject that salvation.

 

[GaryTaylor]

What kind of language do you speak! If there is 3 identical triplex. If one of them commit murder will you hang the other?

1+1+1=1 not 3. There is One God. God cannot die as you know that is impossible.

What does death mean to you when you are a creation which cannot not exist. Your understanding in the process of divinization is what? There is no such thing as death. Its a conceptual reality to often embraced in this physical realm as absolute, its not. just as the Trinity is a conceptual reality

Isn’t this why martyrdom is embraced in Islam and Christianity? Its the process of coming into communion with God as incorrupt. Do you believe you are already on this process and have been since your existence?

In other words, moral means death. immortal mean what? God is what? God became man so that we might become divine; and He revealed Himself through a body in a fully Human/Divine nature of Jesus Christ so that we might receive communion with Him and gain understanding of the invisible Father; (which man refused to accept by large) and He endured further humility from men though His own state of humility He chose so that we might inherit incorruption and eternal life in communion with Him.

The fundamental problem has been mans refusal to cooperate with the grace that leads to eternal salvation.

He descended so we could ascend and by the same example he demonstrated, and which has reverberated through the centuries.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I think it is wrong to submit to the muslim ridicule of 1+1+1=1

We all know it equals three and Christians have been adament that the three in question are the persons of the Holy trinity and not the ousia of God. The muslim and the opponent of the trinity need to understand what the three in question are and not reduce the trinity to mere words which they don’t understand (Three in One God).

 

[GaryTaylor]

There’s no ridicule its correction of misconception and one which I didn’t bring up.

 

[Techno2000]

We are human beings, we must have sense of humor. Sense of humor is not only laughing at other people but we can also laugh at our self. This is greatness laughing at other people any fool can do that but can you laugh at yourself, sometimes the joke is on us you must be able to laugh it, don’t loose your tempers. I read you an anecdote!

• There was an Arab shaikh and a christian missionary got stuck in to him. and they have that perseverance. look we must give them that credit, you know they can come night after night and you can knock them with all the arguments and still they come back for more! They have it admit it but we Muslim haven’t, we can’t take it by God they can take it!

So this Missionary, he kept on going to this Arab shaikh you know days and days out he is preaching to him, Christ crucified, Jesus Christ died for your sins, Jesus Christ died for your sins, he won’t let go.

So the Arab shaikh told his secretary, this guy comes again next time I want you to come and whispers some thing in my ears, so according to the arrangement, the missionary starts again, Jesus Christ died for your sins, Christ crucified so the secretary of his comes along and whispers something in his ears and he starts crying like somebody’s dead, so the missionary tries to know what has happened, I just got the sad news he says the Arc Angel Gabriel died.

Missionary says! don’t be a foul angels don’t die. and he says you foul, all along you tell me that god died! Angels don’t die but God can die.

We want to know weather if he died as a man, we Muslim knows he didn’t die. we are told ( They didn’t kill him and they didn’t crucify him.)

Let us accept their words for whatever Christians says! Now look when he dies, did he died as a man or did he died as a god.

If he died as a man, Useless! By god the whole christian theology is useless because one man can’t carry the sins of the whole world. One man Can’t! He must dies as a God only than he can redeemed mankind, so christian must tell us. Did he die as a man? or did he die as a God?

If he dies as a god than God Died… tell us if he dies as a god than who control this whole universe?

jesus-passion.com/THE_PASSION6.htm#CHAPTER%20LIX

 

[GaryTaylor]

Lazarus, a figure in the Gospel of John, which describes him being raised by Jesus from the dead. He was resurrected. So did he die?

death is the end of being alive, but he was raised from the apparent state so then what is death.

Thus the Bible asks of death, “O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?”

There is no death, we grieve for obvious reasons of accepting the immediate change and for numerous reasons. However, you cannot, not exist, so the body and soul continue to exist. Even if the body is grinded to dust and scattered in the ocean…still resurrected.

 

[Seeker]

You see this word “Trinity” is not in the Bible. Imagine a foundation of faith, the foundation of Christianity the trinity you know that’s what they are trying to tell us, we say God is one, they say yes God is one but 3 in1.

The word Trinity is not in the bible, the word “Bible” is not in the Bible its amazing the word “Bible” is no where in the Bible any Bible hasn’t got inside, is on the outside. Who put it there? You put it there. How did you get this word Bible? They got it from the greek word “Biblos” Biblos mean book and they put it Bible. Holy Bible means Holy Book.

You see we have the word “Trinity” in the Quran! Amazing the Christians beliefs you haven’t got it but Quran has it. "Trinity is in the Quran. Amazing isn’t!

You believe it but in your book it doesn’t exist and we don’t believe it but its in the Quran. You know what it says!
Quran 5:73
They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.

The clearest verse on the trinity is the First Epistle of John Chapter 5 Verse 7 (King James Version)
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

That is the clearest statement on the Holy Trinity. But I say you know its not in my bible. So what do you mean its not in my Bible? Its in King James Version, its in the Roman Catholic Version is there.

But now its thrown out by 32 scholars of highest eminent back by 50 operating denomination, they produce the bible Revise Standard version (RSV) which goes to the most ancient manuscripts. Nearest to Jesus and in those manuscript the verse trinity was not there. This is an interpolation, a fabrication and as such Christian Scholars of the highest eminent back by 50 operating denomination they threw it out without any ceremony.

So, that’s how good your Trinity is, you got the word Trinity which is not there in any Bible. Little wonder Allah says
Quran 2:79
So woe to those who write the “scripture” with their own hands, then say, “This is from Allah ,” in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

News flash True_Faith50, do you know that the word “Tawhid” is not in the Quran, isn’t that Amazing! You muslims innovated a term do describe the oneness of Allah (astafulallah) ??

Regarding the word “Trinity” in the Quran, again this is flat out nonsense propagated Muslim scholars. The word thalathatun does not mean Trinity but rather Three

So next time think before you copy & paste from Islamic anti-trinitarian sites on this forum

 

[Tom_Baum]

AspiringSoul

You wrote, “and saying he is an incarnation is silly
the concept of incarnations is rejected in the true Abrahimic faiths…it was an innovation of the romans”

Are you saying that it is “silly” because you do not believe that God became One of us in the Incarnation?

You said, “the concept of incarnations is rejected in the true Abrahimic faiths”, the “concept of incarnations” (plural) might be rejected but the Incarnation (singular) is the whole basis of Christianity and by this simple statement, are you saying, in your opinion, that CHRISTIANITY is not a “true Abrahamic faith”?

I have already said that either Christianity or islam could be true or they could both be false but that both of them can NOT be true and by this statement of yours, you acknowledge that both Christianity and islam can NOT both be true seeing as the most basic core value of Christianity is that God became One of us and islam flat out says that God did NOT become One of us.

Thank you for putting it in simple terms, for all to see, that you, as a Muslim, reject the Incarnation.

Isn’t this “belief”, one of the basic Muslim beliefs, that says that Christianity is a lie?

 

[Seeker]

You’re not making any logical sense. Again, why do you want to argue about a second degree question? Even IF we show you exactly how Jesus is God and how His death worked, which we can do, you will simply reply that He wasn’t crucified anyway. Is not the more pertinent question between Christians and Muslims whether He was ever crucified to begin with? If you can come to an understanding on that, then we’d be getting somewhere.

Kliska, what True_Faith50 is doing is typical of what Muslims do when they are put into a corner and don’t know a way out…the crucifixion is undoubtedly the one historical “FACT” that all secular, anti-theist/religious and religious scholars and theologians agree upon. Reza Aslan who considers himself a Muslim scholar in comparative religion agrees to the undeniable fact in his book the Zealot…

 

[True_Faith50]

News flash True_Faith50, do you know that the word “Tawhid” is not in the Quran, isn’t that Amazing! You muslims innovated a term do describe the oneness of Allah

My Friend first of all you must know what does “Tawheed” really means in the Quran! Tawheed comes from the word “Wahada” which means to unite, to consolidate.

There are 3 categories of "Tawheed"

1- Tawheed Ar Ruboobiyah
Which means: Maintaining the Unity of Lordship means Allah is the creator, the cherisher, the sustainer of everything in the universe. Everything is dependent on him and he is independent of anything and everything.

2- Tawheed Al Asmaa was Sifaat
Which means: Maintaining the Unity of Names and Attributes of Allah means you can not give your own name to Allah and when you describe the attributes to Allah, you describe it according to how Allah has describe himself or the messenger has describe Allah. You can’t give your own description.

3- Tawheed Al Ibaadah
Which means: Maintaining the Unity of Worship means maintaining the unity of worshiping Allah alone and no one else.

Allah in the Quran in Surah Yunus Refers to the Pagans ( Mushriks ) of Mecca and says!

Quran 10:31
Say, “Who provides for you from the heaven and the earth? Or who controls hearing and sight and who brings the living out of the dead and brings the dead out of the living and who arranges [every] matter?” They will say, " Allah ," so say, “Then will you not fear Him?”

That means Allah is referring to these Pagan Arabs in Mecca, they agreeing that they believe in Allah they give good attributes to Allah Tawheed Ar Ruboobiyah was there! Tawheed Al Asmaa was Sifaat was there but they worship things other than Allah and the similar example is given in Surah Al Zukhruf

Quran 43:87
And if you asked them who created them, they would surely say, " Allah ." So how are they deluded? means why do you joint partners with him.

So here we realise only following the first 2 categories is not sufficient. Following all 3 categories of “Tawheed” simultaneously is important. If you break any one of the categories of “Tawheed” it is called as “Shirk” and shirk in Islam is the biggest sin.

“Shirk” in Arabic means associating partners. In Islamic terminology, it means associating partners with Allah.

 

[True_Faith50]

The muslim and the opponent of the trinity need to understand what the three in question are and not reduce the trinity to mere words which they don’t understand (Three in One God).

Scientifically I do agree water have 3 forms
1-Water
2- Ice
3- Vapour
Constituent remain the same but forms keeps changing. There is no problem!

Now with the concept of “Trinity”
1- Father
2- Son
3- Holy Ghost
You say form changes, for the sake of argument I agree but does the component change?
God and Holy Ghost is made of “spirit” and Human Being are made of Flesh and Bones. They aren’t the same. Human Being is required to eat but God doesn’t require to eat to survive. They aren’t the same!

And this is testify by Jesus Christ himself in the Gospel of Luke

Chapter 24:36-39
While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be to you.” But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

"Scientifically Trinity is Not Possible"

In fact! Jesus Christ never claim Divinity. He says!

John 14:28
My Father is Greater than I

John 10:29
My Father is Greater than all

Mathew 12:28
I cast out devil to the spirit of God

Luke 11:20
I with a finger of God cast out devil

John 5:30
I can do nothing on my own, as I hear I judge and my judgement is just for I seek not my will but the will of my Father.

Any one who says not my will but God will he is a Muslim. Muslim means to submit his will to all mighty God.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

True faith what you are describing is a doctrine called Modalism in which the father changes to the son and the son to the spirit and etc. This is not Trinitarian orthodoxy but was rather a heresy condemned by the church long ago. The father and the son and the spirit exist at the same time in the same substance, there is no change.

This is my biggest gripe with Muslims is misunderstanding of Christian theology like this makes it impossible to talk about these subjects. You do not understand my doctrine, so how am I supposed to respond to your scriptural quotations? What would it mean to you for me to say the father is the fount of divinity and in that way is greater than the son, not in terms of his essence for they share the exact same essence? Would you understand that the son doing the will of the father is in complete agreement with Trinitarian orthodoxy as much as the father saying to the son “Your throne o god is forever.”

Would you understand the doctrine of the Hypostatic union in which we believe Jesus to have two natures, humanity and divinity neither being confused or comingled but remaining distinct. Jesus human in regaurds to being born of his mother and divine in regards to being begotten of the father? I suggest you learn Christian doctrine before you seek to criticise it.

But if you are you going to quote scripture you need to deal with it all. What does it mean for Jesus to claim the exact same name as God the father in Mathew 28:19 or John 17:11? What does it mean for Jesus’s name to be the only name under heaven by which we can be saved? What does it mean to deny the son is to deny the father? What does it mean that Jesus has glory with God the father before the creation of the world?

You will quote the New testament proof texts in evidence of Jesus supposebly being a muslim but you have to ignore all other verses or maintain that they are corrupt. The New testament is not an islamic document, nor can we isolate sayings we like in the gospels from jesus from the sayings in the gospels we don’t like about JEsus. Thats irresponsible. We have to take the whole of the text and certaintly the whole of the text doesn’t present the mythical islamic Jesus.

 

[Seeker]

My Friend first of all you must know what does “Tawheed” really means in the Quran! Tawheed comes from the word “Wahada” which means to unite, to consolidate.

There are 3 categories of "Tawheed"

1- Tawheed Ar Ruboobiyah
Which means: Maintaining the Unity of Lordship means Allah is the creator, the cherisher, the sustainer of everything in the universe. Everything is dependent on him and he is independent of anything and everything.

2- Tawheed Al Asmaa was Sifaat
Which means: Maintaining the Unity of Names and Attributes of Allah means you can not give your own name to Allah and when you describe the attributes to Allah, you describe it according to how Allah has describe himself or the messenger has describe Allah. You can’t give your own description.

3- Tawheed Al Ibaadah
Which means: Maintaining the Unity of Worship means maintaining the unity of worshiping Allah alone and no one else.

Allah in the Quran in Surah Yunus Refers to the Pagans ( Mushriks ) of Mecca and says!

Quran 10:31
Say, “Who provides for you from the heaven and the earth? Or who controls hearing and sight and who brings the living out of the dead and brings the dead out of the living and who arranges [every] matter?” They will say, " Allah ," so say, “Then will you not fear Him?”

That means Allah is referring to these Pagan Arabs in Mecca, they agreeing that they believe in Allah they give good attributes to Allah Tawheed Ar Ruboobiyah was there! Tawheed Al Asmaa was Sifaat was there but they worship things other than Allah and the similar example is given in Surah Al Zukhruf

Quran 43:87
And if you asked them who created them, they would surely say, " Allah ." So how are they deluded? means why do you joint partners with him.

So here we realise only following the first 2 categories is not sufficient. Following all 3 categories of “Tawheed” simultaneously is important. If you break any one of the categories of “Tawheed” it is called as “Shirk” and shirk in Islam is the biggest sin.

“Shirk” in Arabic means associating partners. In Islamic terminology, it means associating partners with Allah.

My friend I know what Tawheed means and I am aware of the categorization you have listed, however the point I was trying to make is that the word “Tawheed” is not in the quran it is derived. The 3 categorizations of tawheed you have listed are all terms and concepts derived from the quran. If I were to search the quran for the word “Tawheed” I will not find it. The same is with the word Trinity, it’s not in the Bible but is a derived concept from the Bible to describe the unity and distinction of the three persons within the one being that is God.

As for Shirk (associating partners with Allah) those verses were meant for the pagan Arabs because they were the ones that associated other gods beside Allah, never for the Christians and Jews of Arabia, remember your prophet considered us people of the book/scripture.

As for those verses in the quran that are supposedly pointing to the rejection of the Trinity is in fact not rejecting the Trinity as understood in Christianity (orthodoxy), it is in fact rejecting heretic forms of Christianity.