Muslims and Christ Divinity

[GaryTaylor]

Allah said: ‘Jesus I am about to cause you to die [take thee] and lift you up to Me. I shall take you from the unbelievers and exalt your followers above them till the day of Resurrection’" (Surah 3, Ali-'Imrans, The Family of Imran: 55).

 

[AspiringSoul]

Revelation 2:8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:

Who is talking?

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 1:11 Saying,** I am Alpha and Omega**, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Jesus is The Son isn’t he? so why are you quoting the Holy Spirit? In Revelation Jesus Christ is mentioned as the lamb, who was ‘slain’

This is the Holy spirit speaking. Ask yourself why the lamb was ‘slain’ and the holy spirit says ‘i was dead’? why are there 2 different words? and moreso to the point 2 different people.

The Holy Spirit is not The Son.

The word ‘dead’ has multiple meanings. One of which is ‘Dormant’. At least in the consciousness of the world.

*16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
*

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Aspiring if you are going to quote ancient Christian creeds which were developed within a context wherein these different ideologies existed and competed for supremacy you absolutely need to care. It does you no good to wave it off.

You do not actually believe what the athanasian creed is actually trying to say. You believe the son is not of the essence of the father, the son in the creed is the person Jesus, it is not something detached from this second person begotten of God the father. The son for the athanasian creed is a person, an eternal person as the father and the spirit are eternal persons.

I would wager you would believe in the Heteroousian ideology in which the son is of a different substance than that of the father. Trinitarians at this time were saying he was of the exact same essence of the father and this is what we have always maintained. You rip this creed out of its context, out of its time and reinterpret it. That is bad history, that is bad theology. I could do this with the quran, I could do this with hindu texts but I actually want to know what they were trying to convey, not try to appeal to a source which both the muslim and hindu would be offended that I use to support my belief.

Now here is where you err in your blatant Gnosticism. You are no muslim as far as I am concerned because muslims believe in the value of the body, they believe in the resurrection at the end of days and certaintly you do not represent any branch of mainstream islam, rather some gnostic variant. There is only Jesus who is man and God in his person, Jesus did not become personal, did not have an identity when he was incarnate, he always had an identity as the son, begotten of God the father.

You are simply wrong to reintroduce this concept of the Jesus and the Christ, for Christ in its jewish context was not a divine person, but a title which was given to the one who was chosen by God. Jesus was anointed by God and thus he was the Christ. There is no Jesus and the Christ, there is only Jesus the Christ.

Now that I have estimated you are a gnostic lets discuss whether or not the creation is good. I submit that the creation is good and that if God felt the spiritual world was better he would not lower himself to creating the physical world. I submit that since Christ became incarnate and took on humanity, that action in itself goes on to show that the physical world has more value than you gnostics ever thought it did.

And in case your offended by me calling you a gnostic, I don’t care for that’s exactly what you are.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Jesus is The Son isn’t he? so why are you quoting the Holy Spirit? In Revelation Jesus Christ is mentioned as the lamb, who was ‘slain’

This is the Holy spirit speaking. Ask yourself why the lamb was ‘slain’ and the holy spirit says ‘i was dead’? why are there 2 different words? and moreso to the point 2 different people.

The Holy Spirit is not The Son.

The word ‘dead’ has multiple meanings. One of which is ‘Dormant’. At least in the consciousness of the world.

16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

When we interpret what the word dead must mean we must consider it against the background it would make sense, ie the gospels. Who would John be refferring to here that was dead and now is alive? He is obviously referring to Jesus and that Jesus was crucified and was reussurected. Why should we consider it in anyway other than physical death? Was Jesus spiritually dead? Did he sin? No you don’t believe Jesus is speaking here at all, you believe the Christ is speaking here and Jesus the man is long dead and forgotten. The only problem is that this is the revelation of Jesus Christ.

The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. Revelation 1.1

Jesus is never seperated from his annointed posiiton in the new testament, he was believed to be Jesus the Christ and not Jesus and the Christ. So therein lies the problem, it is not the holy spirit speaking but Jesus giving his revelation. That is made abundantly clear by the vision of John.

revelation 1.12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man,[d] dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

You can try to read the scripture devoid of its context but it refutes you.

 

[daler]

revelation 1.12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man,[d] dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

You can try to read the scripture devoid of its context but it refutes you.

Ignatian,
. How are you, my friend. I hope that your Christmas Holy Day was joyful to you and that your family is well.

. My question to you is regarding how the quotations from Revelation could possibly be taken literally? As they cannot possibly be describing a literal figure, we must decode the symbolic meaning enshrined within these words.

. In response to the description in Revelation of the One Who was to come: “His eyes were as a flame of fire”, and “brass-like His feet”, and “out of His mouth goeth a two-edged sword.”

. Baha’u’llah states:

"How could these words be literally interpreted?  Were anyone to appear with all these signs, he would assuredly not be human.  And how could any soul seek his company?  Behold, then, the foolish ones of bygone times and those who, in this day, await the advent of such a being!  Nor would they ever bear allegiance to him except that he appear in the aforementioned form.  And as such a being will never appear, so too will they never believe."

. "Now, when He saith: “His eyes were as a flame of fire”, He alludeth but to the keenness of sight and acuteness of vision of the Promised One, Who with His eyes burneth away every veil and covering, maketh known the eternal mysteries in the contingent world, and distinguisheth the faces that are obscured with the dust of hell from those that shine with the light of paradise. Were His eyes not made of the blazing fire of God, how could He consume every veil and burn away all that the people possess? How could He behold the signs of God in the Kingdom of His names and in the world of creation? How could He see all things with the all-perceiving eye of God? Thus have we conferred upon Him a penetrating vision in this day.

. Would that ye believe in the verses of God! For, indeed, what fire is fiercer than this flame that shineth in the Sinai of His eyes, whereby He consumeth all that hath veiled the peoples of the world? Immeasurably exalted shall God remain above all that hath been revealed in His unerring Tablets concerning the mysteries of the beginning and the end until that day when the Crier will cry out, the day whereon we shall all return unto Him.

. As to the words “brass-like were His feet”, by this is meant His constancy upon hearing the call of God that commandeth Him: “Be thou steadfast as thou hast been bidden.” He shall so persevere in the Cause of God, and evince such firmness in the path of His might, that even if all the powers of earth and heaven were to deny Him, He would not waver in the proclamation of His Cause, nor flee from His command in the promulgation of His Laws. Nay rather, He will stand as firm as the highest mountains and the loftiest peaks. He will remain immovable in His obedience to God and steadfast in revealing His Cause and proclaiming His Word. No obstacle will hinder Him, nor will the censure of the froward deter Him or the repudiation of the infidels cause Him to waver. All the hatred, the rejection, the iniquity, and the unbelief that He witnesseth serve but to strengthen His love for God, to augment the yearning of His heart, to heighten the exultation of His soul, and to fill His breast with passionate devotion.

. Hast thou ever seen in this world brass stronger, or blade sharper, or mountain more unyielding than this? He shall verily stand upon His feet to confront all the inhabitants of the earth, and will fear no one, notwithstanding that which, as thou well knowest, the people are wont to commit. Glory be to God, Who hath established Him and called Him forth! Potent is God to do what He pleaseth. He, in truth, is the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.

continued…

 

[daler]

continued…

. "And further He saith: “Out of his mouth goeth a two-edged sword.” Know thou that since the sword is an instrument that divideth and cleaveth asunder, and since there proceedeth from the mouth of the Prophets and the Chosen Ones of God that which separateth the believer from the infidel and the lover from the beloved, this term hath been so employed, and apart from this dividing and separating no other meaning is intended.

. Thus, when He Who is the Primal Point and the eternal Sun desireth, by the leave of God, to gather together all creation, to raise them up from the graves of their own selves, and to divide them one from another, He shall pronounce but one verse from Him, and this verse will distinguish truth from error from this day unto the Day of Resurrection. What sword is sharper than this heavenly sword, what blade more trenchant than this incorruptible steel that severeth every tie and separateth thereby the believer from the infidel, father from son, brother from sister, and lover from beloved?

. For whoso believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him is a true believer and whoso turneth away is an infidel, and such an irrevocable separation occurreth between them that they will cease to consort and associate with each other in this world. And so it is between father and son, for should the son believe and the father deny, they will be severed and forever dissociated from each other. Nay rather, thou witnesseth how the son slayeth the father and the father the son. Consider in the same light all that We have explained and related unto thee."

from Gems of Divine Mysteries:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GDM/gdm-4.html

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Stop being lazy and speak to me yourself. Your prophet has not addressed what I said because he could not anticipate such criticisms. He didn’t understand Christianity for one thing. You need to be original, respond to me based on your founder’s philosophy. Otherwise I don’t care Daler.

Now is John literally speaking to a man with such features? I don’t know, perhaps these were like his features but we cannot say for certain, That John is speaking to someone who was dead and now is alive that is for certain. That the identity is clearly Christ, hence it being a revelation of Jesus Christ makes more sense than thinking it some other spiritual identity.

 

[daler]

Stop being lazy and speak to me yourself. Your prophet has not addressed what I said because he could not anticipate such criticisms. He didn’t understand Christianity for one thing. You need to be original, respond to me based on your founder’s philosophy. Otherwise I don’t care Daler.

Now is John literally speaking to a man with such features? I don’t know, perhaps these were like his features but we cannot say for certain, That John is speaking to someone who was dead and now is alive that is for certain. That the identity is clearly Christ, hence it being a revelation of Jesus Christ makes more sense than thinking it some other spiritual identity.

Brother Ignatian,
. I have a cousin who is a fine artist. He tried to teach me, but my artistic ability is quite pathetic. I once sketched Mt Rushmore in charcoal as best I could in the way that he taught me, but it truly looked pathetic. What a mere mortal like myself can express is like that. I look at the Heaven of Revelation of the Lord of the Age and view it as Him Who has “unsealed” the Holy Books and elucidated their meaning with clarity and supreme eloquence, unmatched by the most learned philosophers and theologians in all of human history and you request me to hand you a charcoal sketch in the form of a sadly dumbed down version which would be an insult to your intelligence.

. It is though I point to the brilliant rainbow in the most majestic sky and you want a black and white picture taken from an old Brownie camera with smudges on the film, kept in a pocket, subjected to the weather and time, and prefer this to Rembrandt? Really??

. You allege that the knowledge of God fails to encompass Christianity, and that Him Who is the Mouthpiece of God for the age who has unsealed the Holy Books and made plain their meaning, Whose very knowledge comes directly from God and are His words? Really? My dear friend, from the highest mountain He sees all, knows all, presents the Word of God gently and without fault, yet it is as the Sun before blind men, while the most brilliant Light in plain view before the gaze of those whom the veils of glory have not hindered from recognizing the Manifestation of God for this age, Who fulfilled all prophecies, of time, of place, of all that was foretold of His coming in all the Holy Books, most of which I have read, and found irrefutable proofs confirming Him indeed being the Promised One of All religion.

. The very words of Baha’u’llah are His greatest proof, for those who have eyes to see. As the decades roll by, I am continually amazed at the depths of profundity contained in even a single phrase uttered from His unerring lips, which need no other proof, as they are indeed self-evident to all but the most hardened-heart bound in the valley of denial.

. These are my words, Ignatian, and really all I have to offer. Any more is but further testimony that my path has led me to Him is the Promised One, the Lord of the Age, Lord of Lords, Lord of Hosts, and King of Kings. May my soul be a sacrifice for his loved ones. Praised be to God that the veils of glory have not hindered me from His recognition. Blessed, Blessed be the Lord, for His blessing to me. Praised, Praised be to God, for permitting this lowly servant to bow down before Him.

. God bless you, my dear friend, for your eyes which have seen His words, whether having recognized His Beauty, or sought to put out His Light. “For God hath willed to perfect His Light, though the infidels abhor it.”

. Praised be to you, Ignatian. God’s blessings be upon you, dear friend. May you apply your deepest thoughts from the recesses of your soul and the purity of your heart in your journey from God unto God and attain to His good-pleasure from all eternity to all eternity.

. Peace be unto you, my friend…
. I am in your service.
. Dale

.

 

[Kliska]

**it is not the holy spirit speaking but Jesus giving his revelation. That is made abundantly clear by the vision of John. **

The One speaking identifies Himself as the Alpha and Omega, the Almighty. He was dead, yet became alive. There is only one explanation and it is one that others don’t want to hear nor understand. So it was then, so it is now. It definitely doesn’t surprise us, though it saddens us.

 

[AspiringSoul]

1. The entire Revelation is FROM Jesus Christ given to John Patmos through an angel. However the particular person speaking in Revelation 1&2 is very very clearly…The Holy Spirit. It is not Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is not the Holy Spirit
2. I’ve already mentioned the fact that Jesus Christ is identified as the Lamb (in the book of Revelation) therefore Jesus Christ does make an appearance, in the vision of John Patmos but as the lamb…in otherwords a different person.
3. The ‘lamb who was slain’ it very specifically uses the word ‘slain’ and not ‘died’. Why 2 different words used in connection with 2 seperate entities?
4. For all of what you’ve mentioned of various creeds, the Athanasian Creed which btw you made known to me, very clearly confirms what i’ve said all along

The Son and the Man are 2 seperate people. The man has no share in Godhead, fact.

• that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world.*

What this proves is there are 2 different ‘realities’ of Jesus. One is the physical man and the other is the higher reality. Fact of the matter is Jesus himself was saying

*Matthew 8:20
Jesus said to him, “The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.”
^^
physical
ie the Son of God doesn’t require sleep but the Son of man, the physical person does indeed.

*Matthew 11:19
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”
*
The Son of God doesn’t need food…the son of man does.

Matthew 12:32
Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
you say the Holy Spirit and The Son are equal in God-head…fine by me…but why is the son of man not sharing the same status as the holy spirit here?
Matthew 12:40
for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.*

etc etc
i can go on and on with this, they are not THE SAME

Can you refute the fact that the personality i assume on Earth, the physical body etc are not the real me? i am an immortal Soul. The physical body and the personality are just like a character/costume i get to use in this world.

Ever read the Gnostic Apocolype of Peter

gnosis.org/naghamm/apopet.html
And he said to me, "Be strong, for you are the one to whom these mysteries have been given, to know them through revelation, that he whom they crucified is the first-born, and the home of demons, and* the stony vessel** in which they dwell, of Elohim, of the cross, which is under the Law. But he who stands near him is the living Savior, the first in him, whom they seized and released, who stands joyfully looking at those who did him violence, while they are divided among themselves. Therefore he laughs at their lack of perception, knowing that they are born blind.
*
Here the Living Jesus ie the Son of God, is teaching Peter whatt he body is ‘the stony vessel’

whether you believe in the authenticity of this text doesn’t matter as this is just an example of how the body+personality on earth do not share the same reality as the soul/spirit.

*The Savior said to me, “He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me.” *

1. I explained to you the concept of Marifah which is an islamic concept which matches the western concept of Gnosis. Unfortnately, going off nothing else but blind ignorance and bias, you’ve immediately linked the concept of Gnosis, with the SECT…

i have zero connection with that sect…but for your benefit i’ll explain how Marifah works

The Lover
The beloved

from a theorical point of view, they are 2 seperate things.
However from a mystical (marifah/gnosis) pov, all that remains is LOVE. God is Love.

The fact of the matter is The Son is not Exactly the same as The Father, otherwise it’d be 1 simple entity and not 2 seperate ones with 2 seperate titles.

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

He is the Image
i don’t need to discuss what The Image means…but i’m just pointing out how The Father and The Son are seperate whereas you’ve said they are one.

They are one in deity, but only from the perspective of Marifah,

ie the Beloved and The lover are 2 but in spirit they both are manifestations of Love.

ps you’ll only reply with another long winded irrelevant essay largely based on ignorance of the truths that i’ve made clear to you. So i won’t bother replying from this point on. Goodbye.

 

[Kliska]

It is indeed clear on who is speaking in Revelation, it’s God and He clearly teaches He died. There is only one explanation; Jesus is God.

Further, you condemn the physical body and distant it from yourself in a very Platonic idea. We are triune and we will be joined with our bodies for all eternity. The physical will be changed, but it will be our body. We shall reclaim it, by God’s help, in glorified form. The physical aspect of creation and of mankind is extremely important.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

You are not brother Daler, stop pretending we are friends. This is an internet forum and nothing more. I have no interest in your stories, I have only an interest in debating ideas thus I ignore and all attempts for you to try and relate with me. I am not sucked into being an emotional wreck like some here.

Now in all of your preaching, you have not addressed what we are talking about. Who is speaking in revelation 1? Why do you insust in this sort of talking and debating? It is pointless and convinces no except for the ignorant and the gullible which is probably why you were convinced. Come back with a serious to what I have said or don’t bother.

Now my response to the aspiring gnostic.

1. The revelation is from Jesus Christ and there is no indication in the text that that man speaking in revelation chapter is not Jesus. You say it is the holy spirit but we have identifiers so as to know who is speaking.
   He is one like the son of man and who is the son of man spoken of in the prophets? It is Jesus for Jesus tells us time and again he is the son of man. He was dead and now is the living one. He holds the keys of death and hades. The text nowhere indicates that this is the holy spirit but we have every indication that this is a vision of Jesus the Christ.
2. Now the fact that Jesus appears as a lamb in a vision no where discounts the idea that this is the revelation of Jesus to John. The imagery is meant to convey something not entirely literal.
3. Since when did slain mean not to be killed or to die? I thought you accepted Jesus dying on the cross against the majority opinion of your supposed religion.
4. The Athanasian creed does not agree with you despite what you claim. You have not addressed my criticisms of your misuse of this CHRISTIAN creed. You have no knowledge of the context and time it was written, no knowledge of the different parties and factions. Your interpretation would suggest a gnostic group operating and using this creed, except the gnostics if they existed then did not use this creed, but the catholic church used this creed. Why is the Catholic church unable to interpret its own creeds? You need to understand that is reckless to interpret ancient documents however you like. You can interpret the gospel of John as a gnostic works easily enough (well not easily) but you would have to deny the Hebrew background and various other elements which make such an interpretation hard to swallow.

Now what the Athanasian creed is referring to is not two different persons but two different substances that is of the humanity and the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ who is one person. This would later have a more solidly defined theology at chalcedon called the Hypostatic union. The athanasian creed is not supposing Gnosticism here but orthodoxy.

Now insofar as we see Jesus in the new testament speaking we do not understand this to be Jesus and the Christ talking different things. This is the same Jesus who took on not only a human body but a Human will which has entailed with it those things we associate with humanity. Paul speaks of this in second phillipans, that he considered his equality with God and became man. Also in your rejection of the son being one with the father in essence ( doubting you know what that means) you reject the Athanasian creed you say is your faith which explicitely tells they are one. They are the one God, the one lord.

You have misunderstood the trinity if you think the father and the son are exactly the same in all things. We are saying this as to his essence not his person. The son speaks to the father and the father says to the son “your throne o God is forever.” You need to learn Trinitarian terminology and understand what essence and persons mean if we are going to speak about this.

So far as the apocalypse is concerned. If you have to rely on gnostic forgeries for your theology, do so, but I am not bound by such words nor will I take them seriously. I think however you will cling to whatever resource you like regaurdless of authenticity. I for one trust the gospels which are validated by history over and against the gnostics.

Now if you reply and still insist on butchering the creeds and distorting them to your own advantage. You are not interested in history. You only want to rewrite it in your image. You want to make the early Trinitarians gnostics and Im telling you they were not gnostics.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I do however feel compelled to quote someone more authoritative on matters of theological history and in particular regards to the “Athanasian creed.”

“A convenient and authoritative compendium of the catholic consensus in the west seems to have come into existence at about this time: the so called Athanasian creed, for which the first is unquestionable testimony comes from Caeserius of Arles. The Theolog of the Athanasian creed has been called “codified and condensed Augustinianism.” Here the trinitarian argumenation of Augustine was given creedal form. The affirmation of the Athanasian creed that “the father is omnipotent, the son omnipotent, the spirit omnipotent; yet there are not three omnipotents but one omnipotent” was taken almost verbatim from Augustine’s On the trinity, where such statements had occured more than once. In its christological paragraphs, the Athanasian creed was directed chiefly against the Nestorian version of the theology of the indwelling of the Lgoos and against the Nestorian criticism of the doctrine of the Hypostatic union.”

Jaroslav Pelikan, the Emergance of the Catholic Tradition, page 351

It really does help to understand the Athanasian creed in its time and place. To reinvent it as a gnostic creed is rewriting history. You must seek to understand it within the theological conflicts of the time.

 

[True_Faith50]

It is indeed clear on who is speaking in Revelation, it’s God and He clearly teaches He died. There is only one explanation; Jesus is God.

We are human beings, we must have sense of humor. Sense of humor is not only laughing at other people but we can also laugh at our self. This is greatness laughing at other people any fool can do that but can you laugh at yourself, sometimes the joke is on us you must be able to laugh it, don’t loose your tempers. I read you an anecdote!

• There was an Arab shaikh and a christian missionary got stuck in to him. and they have that perseverance. look we must give them that credit, you know they can come night after night and you can knock them with all the arguments and still they come back for more! They have it admit it but we Muslim haven’t, we can’t take it by God they can take it!

So this Missionary, he kept on going to this Arab shaikh you know days and days out he is preaching to him, Christ crucified, Jesus Christ died for your sins, Jesus Christ died for your sins, he won’t let go.

So the Arab shaikh told his secretary, this guy comes again next time I want you to come and whispers some thing in my ears, so according to the arrangement, the missionary starts again, Jesus Christ died for your sins, Christ crucified so the secretary of his comes along and whispers something in his ears and he starts crying like somebody’s dead, so the missionary tries to know what has happened, I just got the sad news he says the Arc Angel Gabriel died.

Missionary says! don’t be a foul angels don’t die. and he says you foul, all along you tell me that god died! Angels don’t die but God can die.

We want to know weather if he died as a man, we Muslim knows he didn’t die. we are told ( They didn’t kill him and they didn’t crucify him.)

Let us accept their words for whatever Christians says! Now look when he dies, did he died as a man or did he died as a god.

If he died as a man, Useless! By god the whole christian theology is useless because one man can’t carry the sins of the whole world. One man Can’t! He must dies as a God only than he can redeemed mankind, so christian must tell us. Did he die as a man? or did he die as a God?

If he dies as a god than God Died… tell us if he dies as a god than who control this whole universe?

 

[Kliska]

We want to know weather if he died as a man, we Muslim knows he didn’t die. we are told ( They didn’t kill him and they didn’t crucify him.)

This bit that I’ve underlined is really important, for you don’t believe Jesus was crucified at all, why would any of us take the time to explain the rest? If you don’t believe Jesus was actually crucified, it kind of makes the rest of the point moot.

Now, historical manuscripts record His death, and His resurrection. What is your basis for saying Jesus was not crucified? Do you not believe because the Koran?

 

[True_Faith50]

why would any of us take the time to explain the rest?

That’s what exactly I expect to hear from you! you have no explanation! PERIOD

 

[Kliska]

That’s what exactly I expect to hear from you! you have no explanation! PERIOD

You’re not making any logical sense. Again, why do you want to argue about a second degree question? Even IF we show you exactly how Jesus is God and how His death worked, which we can do, you will simply reply that He wasn’t crucified anyway. Is not the more pertinent question between Christians and Muslims whether He was ever crucified to begin with? If you can come to an understanding on that, then we’d be getting somewhere.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Leaving so quickly?

1. Christianity - 2.1 billion

Stemming from Judaism, Christianity is the largest religion in the world with 31.5% of the world’s population in practice. Christianity is characterized by its follower’s practice of monotheism and follow practices preached by Jesus of Nazareth, a Jew who claimed to be both fully man and fully God. Born in Bethlehem around 7 A.D., Jesus didn’t become public in his teaching until his 30th year and spent 3 years performing miracles and teachings until roughly 30 A.D. when he was brutally crucified for being a threat to the Roman Empire.

Read more at americanlivewire.com/largest-religions/

The fact these Christians absolutely believe what they indeed believe ought to raise doubt to the relative thinking suggested.

I’ve yet to hear why God who could do anything couldn’t do this? Seems the understanding from the suggested perspective lack the attributes of Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient?

Where did Mohammad state he was the last prophet. Oh he didn’t so he wasn’t, in fact his moral behavior flies in the face of the proposed proposition.

You have nothing but a double standard based on a strawman of triumphant vanity.

 

[True_Faith50]

Even IF we show you exactly how Jesus is God and how His death worked, which we can do

My main point is if Jesus Christ dies as a god according to Christians, than God dies! If he dies as a god than who control this universe?

 

[Kliska]

My main point is if Jesus Christ dies as a god according to Christians, than God dies! If he dies as a god than who control this universe?

God the Father. BTW, Jesus doesn’t die as “a god.” There is only One God; God is “echad” in the Hebrew. The Islamic understanding of the Trinity is often lacking the deeper theological explanations. If you want to discuss the Trinity, you’ve come to the right place.

We believe in One God, Three Persons: God the Son, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit. 1 x 1 x 1 = 1 Are you wanting to discuss the Trinity?