Muslims and Christ Divinity

[ChurchSoldier]

Aspiring Soul,

I’m not sure you are really looking for discussion, but to tell Christians they are wrong. I’ll submit the quotes below:
From “Doctrine” by Mark Driscoll:

God the Father said He was God
Hebrews 1:8 8*But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,*and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Matthew 26:63-65
62*And the high priest stood up and said, "Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?"63But Jesus was silent. And the high priest said to him, "I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."64Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

John 8:58-59 Jesus uses the term Before Abraham was, “I Am”, He is using the term God used to describe himself with Moses

John Chapter 10: 30-33
30*I and the Father are one."31The Jews took up stones again to stone him.*32Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of these do you stone me?"33The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

The Bible Clearly says Jesus is God

Matthew 1:23 Matthew calls Jesus Emmanuel which means God with Us.
John 20:28 Thomas says “My Lord and my God”.
Titus 2:13 "Our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:4 calls Jesus “God our Savior”
1John5:20 says of Jesus “this is the true God”

This is the problem with calling Jesus solely a prophet (truth teller). God calls him God, He calls himself God and those who knew him called him God. As C.S. Lewis stated, he is either a Liar, Lunatic or the Lord, but can’t be “just a good man or prophet”.

As well, 2 Corinthians 5:10 says we will sit before the judgement seat of Christ, not Mohammed.

John 3:16-18 says it was the Son sent to save the world, not condemn it. And those who do not have the Son (solely as has been stated "the way, the truth and the life) will not have life but will perish.

Finally, the reason Christian societies allow other faiths to exist is they know if someone is searching for the truth they will find their way to Christianity. The reason countries ruled by other faiths don’t allow Christianity is they believe it too.

Peace

 

[AspiringSoul]

^^
you don’t even understand what’s been discussed, at best you’re a literalist.

 

[Kliska]

You’re saying this but earlier on you were trying to explain to me how 'Jesus was physically and literally crucified" only i’d already said i believe the crucifixion

You believe the crucifixion as laid out from a Islamic Sufi perspective, not from the perspective of the Bible. The serpent that Moses raised was parallel to Jesus in the faith of those following Moses’ instruction would be made whole. You must have faith on Christ and Christ alone in order to be healed. That isn’t what Islam teaches, even, as I understand, the Sufi approach.

What the religion of islam teaches…something which the bible also teaches is to explain how the Spirit doesn’t suffer Death…and the Spirit is our TRUE Self.
The physical body…and the carnal soul are the parts of us that are subject to death.

And do you know any other human that literally and physically died, and then literally and physically rose from the dead after 3 days? This isn’t metaphorical in nature.

Fact is you’re not even aware of your own holy scriptures and what’s contained in them.

This is what you keep claiming for anyone that disagrees with you. The actual fact is that I’ve studied the Holy Scriptures since I was a child. I’ve also studied Islam and conversed with Muslims Therefore, I can say that Islam and Christianity cannot be reconciled, and you are showing that clearly on this thread by denying that Jesus is God the Son.

No, he never said ‘i am the light’ he said ‘i am the light of the heavens and the earth’

The way you put forth this idea is more like what scripture teaches of John the Baptist, not Jesus. Jesus is the Light, and those that reject Him as the very Light are not comprehending Him.

John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

How do you reconcile with the fact Jesus said

‘i am the true vine and God is the gardener’?

the fact is, they are not the same.

We don’t claim that the Son is the Father.

The concept of Marifah however allows a person to accept the light…whether it is reflected, magnified, shone, makes no difference, the people of Marifah see God in all the light. That’s why the trinitarian doctrine is actually the product of Marifah

you don’t know what Marifah is
despite the fact Jesus and Paul spoke of it.

I’m truly sorry, but this isn’t correct. We can clearly see the difference when we check claims of divinity and we check scripture surrounding Jesus Himself. Again, scripture teaches that Jesus IS the Light. He accepted worship of Himself, He healed and performed many miracles as well as forgiving humans of their sin.

 

[AspiringSoul]

You believe the crucifixion as laid out from a Islamic Sufi perspective, not from the perspective of the Bible. The serpent that Moses raised was parallel to Jesus in the faith of those following Moses’ instruction would be made whole. You must have faith on Christ and Christ alone in order to be healed. That isn’t what Islam teaches, even, as I understand, the Sufi approach.
This is a strange thing, you’ve created your own argument to disagree with.

Ie i said i believe in the crucifixion (and the resurrection) for that matter and then the arguments you’ve put forth are to actually accuse me of not believing in such things.

We’re all entitled to interpret religious scripture how we like. No ‘doctrine’ can tell me how to interpret scripture. For example, to me

The serpent, has always represented our sinful, carnal nature. What Jesus did was he sacrificed this part of himself (ie through the crucifixion). what’s the point telling me i’m wrong here?

What is the crucifixion exactly? what was it that died? What on earth have you been reading from the age of 5?

**John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
**

*7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
*

there is no ‘sufi muslim perspective’ btw, it’s a perspective based on simple ideas ie we believe the flesh pertains to our physical body and our carnal nature. Whilst our Spirit is our TRUE Self.

Your point has no legs to stand on as you’ve implied Jesus IS the body full stop. Again i’ve no idea where you’re even going with this…what’s the ultimate point?

The crucifixion and ressurection is a symbol of Jesus overcoming ‘death’ by sacrificing his desires for the sake of God.

*And do you know any other human that literally and physically died, and then literally and physically rose from the dead after 3 days? This isn’t metaphorical in nature.
*
Whoever said otherwise? who said this was metaphorical? you’re in over your head here lol.

This is what you keep claiming for anyone that disagrees with you. The actual fact is that I’ve studied the Holy Scriptures since I was a child. I’ve also studied Islam and conversed with Muslims Therefore, I can say that Islam and Christianity cannot be reconciled, and you are showing that clearly on this thread by denying that* Jesus is God the Son**.*

quite the contrary
all i’ve done is explained what THe Son actually means…and then explained how the light manifested through THe Son
note the word THROUGH the Son…represents the attributes of God.

well, let’s see if this point has any basis from scripture
*
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
*

THROUGH Him? that’s precisely what my analogy (which is entirely my own) pertains to ie to describe The Word as a Prism/Glass.

In response to this you’ve managed to come out with an absurd point ‘But Jesus is LIGHT’
what in God’s name are you even babbling on about?

You’re not cut out for his and have only come across as a petty and silly individual.

If anyone asks me to reconcile between Christianity and Islam I can easily do that and have done
ie i’ve explained simple concepts like Marifah
even the crucifixion has an examplantion ie it’s similar to the concept of martydom.

in islam a martyr is not dead
physically he is dead
spiritually alive
do you believe Jesus physically died? Yes, do you believe spiritually he died? if so then you aren’t even a Christian as you deny the immortality of the Soul.

 

[Kliska]

This is a strange thing, you’ve created your own argument to disagree with.

No, it isn’t created to disagree with, it is your sidestepping of the teachings.

Ie i said i believe in the crucifixion (and the resurrection) for that matter and then the arguments you’ve put forth are to actually accuse me of not believing in such things.

So you do indeed believe that Jesus died and resurrected bodily? Do you believe any other human besides Jesus has done so? Do you believe any other human was born of a Virgin, of the seed of a woman?

We’re all entitled to interpret religious scripture how we like.

Sure, but you would also agree, I assume, that just because you are interpreting scripture a certain way doesn’t mean it’s right? In fact, you could also say that you and I are both betting our “souls” on the way we interpret various holy scriptures.

No ‘doctrine’ can tell me how to interpret scripture. For example, to me

The serpent, has always represented our sinful, carnal nature. What Jesus did was he sacrificed this part of himself (ie through the crucifixion). what’s the point telling me i’m wrong here?

He didn’t have a sinful nature. Jesus lived a perfect life in accord with the law of God. Do you believe He was a sinner or do you believe He was utterly perfect and utterly good?

What is the crucifixion exactly? what was it that died? What on earth have you been reading from the age of 5?

What died? His body. This is what I mean; you try to make something that is material into something strictly mystical. I’ve been reading a lot from the “age of 5” in fact I could read before that after teaching myself how to, but that’s beside the point. lol

there is no ‘sufi muslim perspective’ btw,

There isn’t? Hunh. I’ve heard several Sufi’s interviewed and they definitely seemed to have a perspective.

Your point has no legs to stand on as you’ve implied Jesus IS the body full stop. Again i’ve no idea where you’re even going with this…what’s the ultimate point?

The point is that you try to present an argument that you believes lines up with Christian scripture; it doesn’t.

The crucifixion and ressurection is a symbol of Jesus overcoming ‘death’ by sacrificing his desires for the sake of God.

No, it is not just a symbol. and “death” there shouldn’t be in quotation marks. He overcame literal death by sacrificing Himself for the sake of all mankind, including you. His blood spilled for you. He became sin for you. He, God Himself, came here to restore His relationship with you.

Whoever said otherwise? who said this was metaphorical? you’re in over your head here lol.

You dodged the question; do you know of any other human who has died literally and physically and literally and physically rose 3 days later?

quite the contrary
all i’ve done is explained what THe Son actually means…and then explained how the light manifested through THe Son
note the word THROUGH the Son…represents the attributes of God.

You’ve have indeed explained if from your perspective, but not from a Biblical perspective.

In response to this you’ve managed to come out with an absurd point ‘But Jesus is LIGHT’
what in God’s name are you even babbling on about?

You’re not cut out for his and have only come across as a petty and silly individual.

I see that I have rattled you. You can be rude if you like, that’s ok, but realize your views contradict scripture. Jesus is indeed Light, as John so clearly points out. If you deny that, you walk in darkness.

If anyone asks me to reconcile between Christianity and Islam I can easily do that and have done

No, you haven’t for you deny the Master that bought you.

in islam a martyr is not dead
physically he is dead
spiritually alive
do you believe Jesus physically died? Yes, do you believe spiritually he died? if so then you aren’t even a Christian as you deny the immortality of the Soul.

Of course He didn’t spiritually die, but if you don’t come to the knowledge of Truth and put your faith on that, you are spiritually dead. I respect your search for God, but that fact that you are missing that is very upsetting is that God came here as a human for you to get to know, not indirectly, but in a direct manner, but that takes placing all your faith on God the Son, Who is Jesus Christ who lived a perfect, sinless life, was crucified nailing sin and the law to the cross, accepting punishment for your sin, and who rose literally and physically 3 days later for proof.

You’ve been shown from scripture by myself and others and you dismiss that as being “literalistic.” Well, yeah, you should pay attention when God, in God’s word, calls His Son “God.” God isn’t a liar.

You can get irritated and angry, but what we point out, we point out in love, hoping for you to see exactly Who Jesus indeed is.

 

[AspiringSoul]

The guy didn’t read any of my previous points, he came in here telling me this

“This is the problem with calling Jesus solely a prophet (truth teller).”

in otherwords, he has made a massive assumption, the wrong assumption about what i’ve said.

why should i spoonfeed him my response, all i can do is tell him ‘you have no clue what you’re talking about’

and also he is certainly a literalist ie someone who doesn’t understand the depth, the meaning, but just how a text appears ie

he quotes
John Chapter 10: 30-33
30I and the Father are one."*
he then goes onto explain how this clearly, means Jesus IS God

that’s just a poor interpretation, which also has no consistency since it ignores all the other parts where Jesus is a servant/prophet etc

he says
*
Matthew 1:23 Matthew calls Jesus Emmanuel which means God with Us.
John 20:28 Thomas says “My Lord and my God”.
Titus 2:13 "Our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:4 calls Jesus “God our Savior”
1John5:20 says of Jesus “this is the true God”
*

some of these can easily be explained through the concept of marifah and some are plain misquotes.

btw i didn’t come here to ‘disagree’ with Christians, but to add some context to the arguments put forth.

As i’m a muslim people here are coming long after many points have been discussed and making assumptions ie ‘well you deny the crucifixion and…’
but i didn’t?

or ‘you deny the son’
but i didn’t?

and then when i explain myself im getting certain people telling me
‘but you deny Jesus is the Light’ and i’m like no? i said The SON is like (an analogy only) a prism through which the light of the Absolute Essence is manifesting the attributes of God
in order to understand this you’d have to know the difference between the essence of God and the manifest aspect of God.

Since all of God’s actions are through His Son (His Word) it is clear His attributes are manifest through The Son
thus i believe, in a prism/glass analogy

now when applied to Jesus…i say the same thing ie literally that the ‘attributes’ of God were manifest in him
however certain people don’t want it to end there
they want me saying 'no, Jesus is God in every sense, the attributes of God are NOT ‘manifest’ but They ARE him, ie he IS the attribute of God.

This is the subtle difference…
i find you christians here, diverged far from the essence of the matter by raising irrelevant points.

Why? because Marifah doesn’t look at the glass as the glass or the mirror as a mirror
marifah only sees the light, whether it is in a glass or in a mirror
it is all GOD
and God is One
the light is One

however it appears in diferent things.
Whether it is The Son or the Holy Spirit, or manifested in Jesus Christ.

 

[AspiringSoul]

*No, it isn’t created to disagree with, it is your sidestepping of the teachings.

So you do indeed believe that** Jesus died and resurrected bodily? Do you believe any other human besides Jesus has done so? Do you believe any other human was born of a Virgin, of the seed of a woman?***

no, it was exclusively Jesus. Why are you questioning me on this when im made it clear already?

Sure, but you would also agree, I assume, that just because you are interpreting scripture a certain way doesn’t mean it’s right? In fact, you could also say that you and I are both betting our “souls” on the way we interpret various holy scriptures.

if it is more consistent with the whole (ie the entire bible) it gives it far more accuracy. Afterall, if someone tells me some person, is God
it is pure kufr and should be rejected

however, if a person enters into the state of Marifah and can witness the light of God…if he sees it in a person…then it makes sense.

*He didn’t have a sinful nature. Jesus lived a perfect life in accord with the law of God. Do you believe He was a sinner or do you believe He was utterly perfect and utterly good?
*
silly question, quite insulting actually
why would I say i believe in the new testament entirely but then believe Jesus was sinful or not born of a virgin and so forth?

Clearly you’re asking me these questions because you have the wrong assumption of me.

*What died? His body. This is what I mean; you try to make something that is material into something strictly mystical. I’ve been reading a lot from the “age of 5” in fact I could read before that after teaching myself how to, but that’s beside the point. lol
*
‘flesh’
what does it mean?
the physical body is part of our flesh nature
it is not our true self and is basically what we’re clothed with in this world.

The true Self cannot be killed except by God.

*There isn’t? Hunh. I’ve heard several Sufi’s interviewed and they definitely seemed to have a perspective.
*
sufis are open minded and try to look at the bigger picture, however there never was an exclusively ‘sufi’ pov…or for that matter even a muslim one because muslims also have different opinions or at least different interpretations.

*The point is that you try to present an argument that you believes lines up with Christian scripture; it doesn’t.
*
you’re saying that doesn’t make it true.

since you’re unfamiliar with the concept of Marifah and i’m familiar
when i read the following

all i see is the concept of Marifah

"The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light
“To the pure all things are pure”
the mindset taught by Jesus is to eliminate all ‘else’ until the light (ie God) remains.

"No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

devotion, love…it must be for God entirely
this is the concept of Marifah

you telling me i’m wrong doesn’t change what i know to be accurate and consistent.

 

[AspiringSoul]

No, it is not just a symbol. and “death” there shouldn’t be in quotation marks. He overcame literal death by sacrificing Himself for the sake of all mankind, including you. His blood spilled for you. He became sin for you. He, God Himself, came here to restore His relationship with you.
*
Again what is your point in saying this when i actually…believe this already?
do you see that?

but when you say Literal death
what is DEATH in your view? be honest, you think of death as the passing away of the physical body don’t you?

Wheras if you read the deeper texts ie the psalm mentioned in Acts 2, or Wisdom (chapters 2 and 3) or the Quranic verses on martydom…the passing away of the body does not mean death
death is being bound in sheol.

however i do believe Jesus ‘died’ in the typical sense of the word. All i’m doing is adding context by explaining, there’s a different perspective on death, taught in the bible and the Quran.

*You dodged the question; do you know of any other human who has died literally and physically and literally and physically rose 3 days later?
*
it’s because once again it’s a silly question to ask someone who believes entirely in the new testament.
often times muslims will say the new testament is corrupt
whereas ive never said that

You’ve have indeed explained if from your perspective, but not from a Biblical perspective.
do you think your views when you say Jesus is God are consistent with the old testament, with the torah? they aren’t.

However when a person knows what Marifah means, he/she can reconcile the 2 seemingly contradictory points of view.

I see that I have rattled you. You can be rude if you like, that’s ok, but realize your views contradict scripture. Jesus is indeed Light, as John so clearly points out. If you deny that, you walk in darkness.
with all the irrelevant questions and assumptions?

No, you haven’t for you deny the Master that bought you.
childish

Of course He didn’t spiritually die, but if you don’t come to the knowledge of Truth and put your faith on that, you are spiritually dead. I respect your search for God, but that fact that you are missing that is very upsetting is that God came here as a human for you to get to know, not indirectly, but in a direct manner, but that takes placing all your faith on God the Son, Who is Jesus Christ who lived a perfect, sinless life, was crucified nailing sin and the law to the cross, accepting punishment for your sin, and who rose literally and physically 3 days later for proof.

yeh
but you’re placing ‘conditions’ on me ie ‘if you don’t come to the knowledge of Truth’ when in this case the truth is subjective.

I believe Jesus can be likened to a transparent object through which the light of God is manifest
That’s why I believe Jesus fully submitted to God and is called the servant of God
whereas you ignore all these examples from within the bibles
my view point is consistent with the whole

from the perspective of marifah however you are right

again you need to learn what marifah (gnosis of God) means.

You’ve been shown from scripture by myself and others and you dismiss that as being “literalistic.” Well, yeah, you should pay attention when God, in God’s word, calls His Son “God.” God isn’t a liar.
whoever said he was? whoever said i disagreed with what is in the new testament?

the only difference is i believe such inspired writings were written in a state of marifah. such is the difference afterall
‘to the pure all things are pure’
how far do you wish to go with this ‘purity’? ie a person in Marifah can find God in anything, in anyplace, not just Jesus.
as it says ALL THINGS not just Jesus.
although Jesus was the object through which many works/miracles were performed by God. As Jesus himself said ‘believe on account of these works’ rather than saying ‘believe on account of me’. Then again this isn’t something you’re able to grasp.

You can get irritated and angry, but what we point out, we point out in love, hoping for you to see exactly Who Jesus indeed is

lol it doesn’t matter what i believe, i could accept everything you write and still someone would come here and be like

‘so…moslem, you think Jesus is only a prophet huh? oh no, he is the messiah and God’

i don’t know whether to be amused, confused, irritated…but angry is pushing it. Why would i be on here?

 

[PRmerger]

I can see in scripture that the holy spirit is a person, who speaks to the apostles, who guides the apostles and influences them in variously different ways.

Could the HS not be a “force” who guides and influences, rather than a person?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I have misunderstood islam? You a presenting an understanding of concepts which I have seen no Muslim use before. You want to affirm statements in the creed (although you have to reinterpret them) like the son is equal to the father. Muslims do not talk like this as far as I’m aware.

Now, as far as the terms father and son being “metaphorical,” what do they then represent? Obvious the connection is drawn to a father on earth and a son on earth so yes it is metaphorical in that sense but it also must be real in a sense as well in order to be used in the first place. I already explained why the father is called father and the son is called son, because the father begets the son from all eternity, hence why Jesus is “God of God, Light from light, begotten not made.”

Now you have resorted to a strawman attack against Christianity, Jesus is not the son of God because he became incarnate, that is your false perception. He is the eternal Son of God who is ever of the true substance of the father. God is not a giant man in the sky like atheists who want to insult Christianity say and if you want to speak like them go ahead but you will be shown no mercy in the exposure of your ignorance.

If you want to judge Christianity by the beliefs of “lots of Christians,” whatever that means why won’t you judge it by the orthodox creeds they are supposed to be believing? If I run into a someone in my church who says Jesus is not God do I still say they are an orthodox Christian? No its my responsibility to turn them away from this grave error and show how they are not orthodox and if they continue to persist in this doctrine they should leave the church. The lay people have been right in many times and places, but they have been wrong as well, God balances the church by those educated and the great witness of tradition and expositors of the faith. We are not to judge Christianity by the mere mass of people but rather the entirety of tradition since the scripture.

I am glad you have denied your God begetting, hence you must also give up this foolish attempt at trying to say the athanasian creed is in line with orthodox islam when you know it isn’t. If not you need to explain how the son is not made but begotten and then you need to demonstrate the son is Not God in this creed when the creed explicitly tells us he is God.

Now insofar as this marifah concept Is concerned and that you think it “explains the trinity,” I’m a bit baffled. How is the trinity not explained already? How did Constantinople not explain it thoroughly? How has the church left it unexplained? I often find those who critique the trinity or reinterpret it never understood it in the first place and it usually rests of the terms persons and substance. People have no idea what these words mean and they are confused and give up and consider the trinity impossible. It is not impossible.

Now I must have missed your views on the word, spirit, son, father and etc are. Label them and define them concisely. I’ll give you an example.

Christ, Christos, the anointed one. A position of being anointed for a certain task or position we see in the bible, ie David was anointed King. Also having special significance for the one promised to come in the Old testament and restore Israel and usher in God’s kingdom on earth.

Now define your theology so we can have a conversation.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Could the HS not be a “force” who guides and influences, rather than a person?

People have argued that from the bible before but since the holy spirit in the book of acts is said to have directly talked to people and we have the tradition of the church to help us understand the holy spirit is a person i tend to find such interpretations wrong. Thats the best I can do, I have not studied the scripture enough to say that an exhaustive case can be made for the personhood of the holy spirit though I have no doubt people have attempted it and that the fathers would have no basis in scripture for declaring as such.

 

[MartinJordan]

It does not matter what you tell them they will never believe that Jesus is God.

Good point.

There is a biblical saying (and uttered by Jesus himself) . Matthew 7:6 -“Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.”

:sad_yes:

MJ

 

[PRmerger]

People have argued that from the bible before but since the holy spirit in the book of acts is said to have directly talked to people and we have the tradition of the church to help us understand the holy spirit is a person i tend to find such interpretations wrong.

Egg-zactly. You have made my point for me.

No one would read the book of Acts and conclude, “Oh! I see that the HS is a person!”, except that he was given that understanding by…

the Church.

 

[Kliska]

no, it was exclusively Jesus.

So, now we are getting somewhere; Jesus is unique amongst ALL mankind. He is the only One who was born of a Virgin, lived a totally sinless life, was literally and physically killed, and then literally and physically rose from the dead. Why do you follow any other human? Why do you believe it was Muhammad that revealed ultimate truth instead of this sinless perfect Person Who proved everything He claimed, including being God in a literal sense, by raising bodily from the dead and establishing the ekklesia of His out-called ones? Promising the Holy Spirit, and saying that He, in these last days, is the ONLY voice to follow? God the Father says blatantly that the Son is also God and if you don’t acknowledge that, you don’t acknowledge the Father.

Why are you Muslim?

Afterall, if someone tells me some person, is God
it is pure kufr and should be rejected

And if God tells you this person is God, and then the person proves it by His mastery over life and physical death, you should listen. It seems you are limiting God.

Clearly you’re asking me these questions because you have the wrong assumption of me.

I assume you are a Muslim, and reject Jesus as God the Son.

all i see is the concept of Marifah

I get that, but you may consider that you are looking through a lens that is biased in nature. We can all interpret things through our lenses to our own detriment. All I ask is that you consider that possibility, as I consider it for myself.

devotion, love…it must be for God entirely

We agree on this. If Jesus was sinless but just human then He should not have accepted worship or love or devotion, yet He did all those things. The Bible is clear on that, they weren’t just devoted to the teaching of God through Him, but they worshiped Him in a literal sense, His body and blood as well as His words, and He accepted it and nurtured it. We see from the angels in scripture how a being refocuses worship onto God, and Jesus didn’t do that, He said, I AM, just as the Father says I AM. When His disciples worshiped Him, and devoted themselves to His entire being, He accepted it.

do you think your views when you say Jesus is God are consistent with the old testament, with the torah? they aren’t.

They absolutely are. The whole of the OT points to and moves toward this fact. Even the statement of God being one or “echad.” If you know the NT, then you know one of the things that Jesus Himself did, and the Apostles, was to go back through the Old Testament and reveal Jesus all the way through it. If Jesus was just a man, would the whole of the old covenant point to Him “instead” of God? No, of course not, it points to Jesus because He IS God, and the Jews in His time knew exactly Who He was claiming to be.

childish

Jesus said to let the little children come unto Him as well as to have the faith of a child, so thank you.

but you’re placing ‘conditions’ on me ie ‘if you don’t come to the knowledge of Truth’ when in this case the truth is subjective.

No, in this case Truth is an objective Person; Jesus Himself claimed to be literal Truth.

‘so…moslem, you think Jesus is only a prophet huh? oh no, he is the messiah and God’

He is indeed the Messiah, and is indeed God.

i don’t know whether to be amused, confused, irritated…but angry is pushing it. Why would i be on here?

Out of curiosity, why* are* you on here?

 

[century153]

Adam was created without parents, so?

I don’t know what your angle is – but FYI!!! Adam was made out of clay…and Eve was made out of Adam. However, Jesus was not exactly created – He was incarnated by the Holy Spirit through the womb of Mary – a virgin.

 

[century153]

If you truly believed that God actually wrote a definitive book, you would submit yourself to it. That in a nutshell is Islam. They sincerely believe that the Koran comes from God. If you want to make any headway with them, you have to show them that that it simply false.

Not an easy feat, but it’s possible.

Islam is a Johnny come lately religion that whitewashes hundred years of accepted history. Instead of Isaac, it was Ishmael that they believe Abraham almost sacrificed. Jesus was not practicing Judaism, he was Muslim and so were all the prophets God sent.

They will believe all sorts of historical distortions simple because the Koran says it’s so. They believe the Gospels were corrupted, because the Koran says it’s so … but press them to state where and they will just say anywhere where it contradicts the Koran. Never mind that we can show them that the bible hasn’t changed since the time it was written.

Therein lies all kinds of problems. As Catholics we know very well the kind of chaos a book without an authoritative interpreter can lead to. It is the same with them, since they have no Pope and Magisterium, interpretation is up for grabs. Other than their 5 pillars, which identify them; and to their credit, it works much better because they have splintered much less than the protestants, everything else is fair game. This explains how we see both the extremist radicals and the really peaceful ones.

The head of the religion is decided upon geopolitical lines. Some want to invoke Shariah laws while others don’t. Some will pass fatwas that the others do not agree with. Some will have honor killings, others don’t. Some circumcise women, others don’t … in fact, with regards to female circumcision, those who don’t subscribe to it even have lobbies against the practice.

Google Islamic miracles and it mostly brings up how the word Allah in Abrabic can be found in nature. Bizarre that they actually consider such things miracles. I suppose that doesn’t really bother them since Mohammad did not perform a single miracle. As mentioned above, they acknowledge that Jesus was born of a virgin and performed miracles, yet, Mohammad remains their best (?) prophet. I will never understand that part.

You know, one of the smartest chaps I know is Muslim … which is weird because he demonstrates sound logic and quick thinking almost daily … but somehow cannot seem to see the numerous inherent faults in their religion.

I guess we can only pray for them.

Yes – pray. The reason for the blindness is because God has made it so. Only God can reveal His truth to a person – this comes by grace. When a Muslim receives this grace there is no stopping him …his faith is so intense because you can compare it to someone who was physically blind all his life and then suddenly he can see. Imagine that! That, my friend, is a miracle! So – yes, pray!

 

[century153]

When the time comes that Christians and Muslims realise that their respective “Books” relate SPIRITUAL TRUTHS rather than historical facts, the world will become a better place…

It baffles me when a Christian criticises the Quran for its lack of historicity.

The worlds historians are all cringing…

But, you seem to forget, that if it were not for the OT the world would not know much history because in the OT there are many facts and stories that are written that are definitely historical regarding the Jews - and I think creation began in that area of the world. For whatever reason – God chose them obviously even if there were people in other parts of the world since most historical accounts revolve around them that we know about today – and all because of what we know as the OT.

 

[century153]

How can the Word be with God and be God at the same time? Also, how can Jesus be the Son of God and God at the same time?

Indeed – how?? Could that be what is known as the Trinity?

 

[AspiringSoul]

IgnatianPhilo
It’s difficult to reply when you’ve made certain assumptions about me ie that i’ve attacked Christianity? i’m amazed to read this as I haven’t nor did I have any intention to, but i’ll try to get back to this point.

The reason you’ve never seen a muslim share my views is actually because the topic in discussion is relatively new in the western islamic world. The vast majority of muslim scholars/sheikhs do not even talk about this topic or have any interest in it, nor do they engage in any discussion with Christians, they simply have no need for it. The few who do btw…are very very few in number. Ahmad Deedat, Dr Zakir Naik.
Now Ahmad Deedat I have a lot of love and respect for because at least his views were his own and based on his own resarch, however the guys who came later just parroted his views.

When a common muslim wants to know about this topic in particular he first watches their videos and takes from it whatever he likes.

Furthermore, we’re living in a time where we have access to all kinds of sources at the click of a few buttons which makes it easier to research.

I’ll sum up my beliefs for you, if this helps

-I believe in the old and new testaments fully…and I believe in the Quran

I’m perfectly comfortable with this. It’s others who have a problem with it because in their minds they see a contradiction in my belief, although i’ve explained myself clearly. For example, the Quran confirms the previous scriptures in the present tense, fully.
Therefore any ‘apparent’ contradictions…have explanations and those explanations have often been the root of my spiritual beliefs.

-I’m a muslim as I believe in the Prophethood of Mohammed SAW.

I’m comfortable with this whilst fully believing in everything taught in the Bible about Jesus. Again, it’s other people who have a problem with this, i’m fine with it. I can and have explained why.

-I believe the crucifixion was real, physical and certainly took place.

whilst being fully aware of what the Quran says on this…and it all rests on how the verse in question is understood. I’m perfectly comfortable explaining why and I have done.

Again this is something which rests on 2 perspectives, 2 ways of looking at the same thing…and why not? we have 2 natures, a carnal nature and an immortal nature.

This is an example of something you’ve assumed or misunderstood about me ie you think i believe the following
*Jesus is not the son of God because he became incarnate, that is your false perception
*

I never said it, not like that. What I pointed out was that there is a true reality of Jesus…which is ‘the son of God’. I consider the Son of God a metaphorical term describing the Word of God…and yes i believe the Word of God IS GOD (but only from the perspective of marifah).

For me the concept of marifah explains the trinity perfectly and it isn’t something i’ve invented.

What you’ve asked me is why Marifah is necessery when the church fathers already explained the trinity.

It’s my understanding that Christianity, is entirely the manifestation of the state of Marifah. Do you know what marifah means?
Here’s an exaplanation
thewaytotruth.org/heart/marifet.html
Could you honestly tell me Jesus Christ, the Apostles, the early Christians etc were not…in the state described in the above link?

The first commandment of Jesus was to Love the Father. The summit of the ‘love of God’ is Marifah…which means Gnosis of God ie to know God.

Knowing God isn’t merely a small theological belief, it is a complete inner experience. The end result of this inner experience is becoming aquainted with our own higher states of consciousness and the highest state of consciousness…is The Word.

please read the following page
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufi_cosmology
Specifically the 3

Alam-i-Hahut
Alam-i-Lahut
Alam-i-Lahut

These 3 are The Father, The Son and The Holy spirit

PS
‘so we can have a discussion’?
i’m sharing my beliefs, what you take from them is entirely upto you. I don’t need to justify my beliefs, i’m sharing them.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Egg-zactly. You have made my point for me.

No one would read the book of Acts and conclude, “Oh! I see that the HS is a person!”, except that he was given that understanding by…

the Church.

I dissagree that no one would come to such a conclusion.