Muslims and Christ Divinity

[TheSufi]

Not the letters on the paper, nor the cover to cover. However, what you believe to be God’s word (the Qur’an) is a nature of God revealed to mankind.

God has the ability to speak his word and those words are eternal, fully God and fully speech. There is no word in the Qur’an that is not the word of God, so his words in the Qur’an are equal to him. They are uncreated, and a divine nature of Allah.

So we can both agree that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God… Now we just need to convince you of the rest.

You do not understand Islamic theology.

Ultimately the difference between Islam and Christianity is God incarnate. We do not believe God indwells in creation nor does creation indwell in Him. And man is created, and Jesus was 100% man.

 

[dronald]

You do not understand Islamic theology.

Ultimately the difference between Islam and Christianity is God incarnate. We do not believe God indwells in creation nor does creation indwell in Him. And man is created, and Jesus was 100% man.

So what of the bush then?

 

[TheSufi]

So what of the bush then?

God isn’t a burning bush, and God did not incarnate as a burning bush, nor does God indwell in a burning bush.

That is the Sunni Muslim belief.

 

[dronald]

God isn’t a burning bush, and God did not incarnate as a burning bush, nor does God indwell in a burning bush.

That is the Sunni Muslim belief.

So God was never in a burning bush, ever?

 

[Kliska]

Ultimately the difference between Islam and Christianity is God incarnate. We do not believe God indwells in creation nor does creation indwell in Him. And man is created, and Jesus was 100% man.

Do you believe God did not, or God cannot?

 

[Tom_Baum]

But we don’t believe God’s Speech became book, while you believe God’s word became man.

From the bible, “In the beginning* was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.”

The “Word” is LOVE and since God Is a Being of Love as opposed to Love being an attribute of God. It was/is God becoming Love-Incarnate or God-Incarnate, one and the same.

And it doesn’t speak of Him only being with God but that He Is God.

Seems as if the Oneness of God has something to it in this passage that is different from what we usually think of as One, does it not?

I am not asking you to believe what it infers but to see that there is an inference.

Whether or not you believe this inference is immaterial, it is there.

 

[famdigy]

About the Qur’an being eternal, that’s not a Shia belief.
About the bush, I still never fully understood this.

About the bush. It’s a sound projection coming from the bush. Doesn’t mean God is present in the bush. Bad example bit just like when someone speaks through a cell phone. Sound is coming from the speaker but doesn’t mean that person is present.

God caused the fire or burning wood to create sound waves in the voice of a person in a language Moses (as) understood.

 

[dronald]

About the bush. It’s a sound projection coming from the bush. Doesn’t mean God is present in the bush. Bad example bit just like when someone speaks through a cell phone. Sound is coming from the speaker but doesn’t mean that person is present.

God caused the fire or burning wood to create sound waves in the voice of a person in a language Moses (as) understood.

How do you know this with absolute certainty? Is this in the Qur’an/Hadith?

Also, God speaks of His face, back, and hand. God was surely present in Heaven as He was speaking of these attributes, no?

 

[famdigy]

How do you know this with absolute certainty? Is this in the Qur’an/Hadith?

Also, God speaks of His face, back, and hand. God was surely present in Heaven as He was speaking of these attributes, no?

Sunni Muslims believe in God’s physical attributes whereas Shia Muslims don’t. We believe those attributes are meant to be understood metaphorically. i.e. God’s face is a metaphor for his mercy, God’s hands a metaphor for his power. For example there is a verse in the Quran that speaks about an incident which happened during Muhammad’s (pbuh&hf) first attempt to visit Makkah after he had migrated to Madina. The unbelievers of Makka did not allow him to enter the city. In view of a possible confrontation those who were with him swore their allegiance to him by placing their hands on his hand according to the Arab custom.

Indeed, those who pledge allegiance to you, [O Muhammad] - they are actually pledging allegiance to Allah . The hand of Allah is over their hands. So he who breaks his word only breaks it to the detriment of himself. And he who fulfills that which he has promised Allah - He will give him a great reward.

The hand of Allah (swt) here would represent God’s agreement or joining the pledge because their pledge to the prophet is in fact a Pledge to God. It can also be interpreted to mean God’s support is with the Prophet. In either case there was no physical divine hand.

 

[dronald]

Sunni Muslims believe in God’s physical attributes whereas Shia Muslims don’t. We believe those attributes are meant to be understood metaphorically. i.e. God’s face is a metaphor for his mercy, God’s hands a metaphor for his power. For example there is a verse in the Quran that speaks about an incident which happened during Muhammad’s (pbuh&hf) first attempt to visit Makkah after he had migrated to Madina. The unbelievers of Makka did not allow him to enter the city. In view of a possible confrontation those who were with him swore their allegiance to him by placing their hands on his hand according to the Arab custom.

The hand of Allah (swt) here would represent God’s agreement or joining the pledge because their pledge to the prophet is in fact a Pledge to God. It can also be interpreted to mean God’s support is with the Prophet. In either case there was no physical divine hand.

Thanks. It is often difficult discussing Shia beliefs (as well as Baha’i beliefs) here because they’re so different from what I’m used to. I have a general understanding of Sunni Muslim beliefs but haven’t looked much into the different sects of Islam.

Again though, assuming everything you say is true, how do you know this?

 

[True_Faith50]

Muslim / Islam claim ~

• Mohammad is claimed to be the seal of prophets and no other prophet will be sent by Allah.
• Jesus is just a prophet of Allah.

If Mohammad is the “seal of all prophets” - why then is Jesus going to return at the end of times to do some stuff and to also destroy Christianity, break the cross and make Islam the **global **religion.

Doesn’t this action **negate **the claim of Mohammad being the seal of the prophets since Jesus will return as a prophet.

We Muslims believe that God Almighty took him up and saved him. God Almighty didn’t allow that happen to his servants his messenger Jesus and I say he is coming back to “Judge You”

He is coming back to do what?
You know we Muslim, we believe and we claim that Islam in the culmination the fulfillment of all of God’s revelation, all guidance is giving to us! We don’t have to learn any thing new from Jesus, Moses or Muhammad anymore!

Whatever God want to give, he is giving it to us. So, what is Jesus coming and do? He is not coming for Jews, Not for Muslims, Not for Hindus but He is coming along to rectify you Christians and he is telling you in the “Gospel of St Mathews” 7:23

"Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23"And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

You are evil doers, evil-mongers! Who he say? You who working on the name of Christ looking after the lepers, looking after orphans all the wonderful works you people are doing and that’s what you going to say to “Jesus” I’m asking to Christians answer me… You know why? because you call him Lord. He is not your lord, he is not God.

Jesus teaching you how to pray! and he put the words in your mouth like a child…

Mathew 6:9

"Pray, then, in this way: 'O our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10’Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.…

Where did he say the Father of Jesus Christ in heaven or Jesus Christ by Lord in heaven where? He says this is how you pray but you have forgotten that you worshipping him instead of worshipping Father (God)

This discussion could take hours to discuss but in my final words I say Mohammad is the “seal of all prophets” He is last and final messenger of God! according to our belief!

 

[MartinJordan]

We Muslims believe that God Almighty took him up and saved him. God Almighty didn’t allow that happen to his servants his messenger Jesus and I say he is coming back to “Judge You”

He is coming back to do what?
You know we Muslim, we believe and we claim that Islam in the culmination the fulfillment of all of God’s revelation, all guidance is giving to us! We don’t have to learn any thing new from Jesus, Moses or Muhammad anymore!

Whatever God want to give, he is giving it to us. So, what is Jesus coming and do? He is not coming for Jews, Not for Muslims, Not for Hindus but He is coming along to rectify you Christians and he is telling you in the “Gospel of St Mathews” 7:23

"Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23"And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

You are evil doers, evil-mongers! Who he say? You who working on the name of Christ looking after the lepers, looking after orphans all the wonderful works you people are doing and that’s what you going to say to “Jesus” I’m asking to Christians answer me… You know why? because you call him Lord. He is not your lord, he is not God.

Jesus teaching you how to pray! and he put the words in your mouth like a child…

Mathew 6:9

"Pray, then, in this way: 'O our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10’Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.…

Where did he say the Father of Jesus Christ in heaven or Jesus Christ by Lord in heaven where? He says this is how you pray but you have forgotten that you worshipping him instead of worshipping Father (God)

Can you kindly point out to me EXACTLY where in Islam teaching (from the time of Mohammed and latest just after his death) refer to these specific Gospel texts?

I’ll be waiting…

MJ

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

We Muslims believe that God Almighty took him up and saved him. God Almighty didn’t allow that happen to his servants his messenger Jesus and I say he is coming back to “Judge You”

He is coming back to do what?
You know we Muslim, we believe and we claim that Islam in the culmination the fulfillment of all of God’s revelation, all guidance is giving to us! We don’t have to learn any thing new from Jesus, Moses or Muhammad anymore!

Whatever God want to give, he is giving it to us. So, what is Jesus coming and do? He is not coming for Jews, Not for Muslims, Not for Hindus but He is coming along to rectify you Christians and he is telling you in the “Gospel of St Mathews” 7:23

"Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23"And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

You are evil doers, evil-mongers! Who he say? You who working on the name of Christ looking after the lepers, looking after orphans all the wonderful works you people are doing and that’s what you going to say to “Jesus” I’m asking to Christians answer me… You know why? because you call him Lord. He is not your lord, he is not God.

Jesus teaching you how to pray! and he put the words in your mouth like a child…

Mathew 6:9

"Pray, then, in this way: 'O our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10’Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.…

Where did he say the Father of Jesus Christ in heaven or Jesus Christ by Lord in heaven where? He says this is how you pray but you have forgotten that you worshipping him instead of worshipping Father (God)

This discussion could take hours to discuss but in my final words I say Mohammad is the “seal of all prophets” He is last and final messenger of God! according to our belief!

Do you accept Jesus and the father have the same name as Jesus himself says in Mathew 28?

 

[True_Faith50]

Do you accept Jesus and the father have the same name as Jesus himself says in Mathew 28?

Please explain briefly. What are you trying to say! Mathew 28 which verse are you pointing out? Are you talking about “Trinity”? Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Mathew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

It is easier for me as well as others to understand what are you exactly pointing out! Your question is a bit confusing! You said Mathew 28 but did not give me the verse." What exactly Jesus say? "

 

[MartinJordan]

TF50. Pls refer to my earlier post. Im waiting for your answer.

MJ

 

[True_Faith50]

Mohammad did not perform a single miracle. As mentioned above, they acknowledge that Jesus was born of a virgin and performed miracles, yet, Mohammad remains their best (?) prophet. I will never understand that part.

You have this power of Miracle worker Christ give life he heals the sick, Muhammad couldn’t in the name of Muhammad they couldn’t do it. My Christian brothers you don’t read the scriptures Jesus Christ who says!

Mark 13:22
for false Christ and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.…

If false Christ can do that, if false Christ can perform miracle, if false Prophets can perform miracles than I say is this a test of your faith? John the Baptist according to Jesus he says!

Mathew 11:11
Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist!

And yet he performs no Miracles. Did he? What Miracles did he do? Miracle is not a test.
**The Greater Miracle is that without any Miracles you transform Nations! **
Nations are transforms 1000 Million muslims they don’t imbibe alcohol because of the dictates of Muhammad!!!

 

[True_Faith50]

Thank you for educating me on such. I suppose I’ll be sure to only discuss such an analogy with Sunni’s from now on.

As a Muslim my belief “Quran” is not “created” it is directly sent to Muhammad and now I give you clear proof from your own “Holy Bible”

How can we Muslim belief in a man who was illiterate, unlearned and by bloodshed who has spread Islam his faith converted people?

Now with regards to man being unlearned. The is the fulfillment of the prophecy in your “Bible”

Isaiah 29:12
Then the book will be given to the one who is illiterate, saying, “Please read this.” And he will say, “I cannot read.”

Now if you look in the religious history of men, in the Bible you will never find an occasion where any prophet of God when given the message of God, he says I’m not learned. But if you read any biography of Muhammad written by Muslims or Non Muslims they will tell you that the first revelation that was given to him in Gar-E-Hira ( Mount of Hira )

When the angel of God appears to him and command him in his mother tongue “Iqra” means read and Muhammad says “I’m not learned” so the angel of God command him a second time “Iqra” means read and again he says “I’m not learned”, so the third time angel of God embraces him hard and say “Iqra Bisme Rabakal Lazi Khalaq” means “Recite in the name of your Lord who created” now he grasp the message that work he was required to do is was to repeat! because this arabic word “Iqra” means to read, to recite and to repeat.

And he repeated the words that was given to him.

Quran 96:1-5
96:1 Recite in the name of your Lord who created -
96:2 Created man from a clinging substance.
96:3 Recite, and your Lord is the most Generous -
96:4 Who taught by the pen -
96:5 Taught man that which he knew not.

The Very Fact that the man was Unlearned is a “PROOF” that this book “Quran” is the Book of God!

 

[jakasaki]

Isaiah 29 has nothing to do with the prophet of Islam.

Read the entire chapter - it’s quite short and reads quickly…

biblehub.com/niv/isaiah/29.htm

 

[MartinJordan]

No answer yet to my question.

MJ

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Please explain briefly. What are you trying to say! Mathew 28 which verse are you pointing out? Are you talking about “Trinity”? Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Mathew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

It is easier for me as well as others to understand what are you exactly pointing out! Your question is a bit confusing! You said Mathew 28 but did not give me the verse." What exactly Jesus say? "

Thats exactly the verse. Do you accept the the son shares the same name as the father?