Muslims and "Circular Reasoning"

[inJESUS]

To those who are citing the testimony of the “500 eye witnesses” as proof of the divinity of Jesus (pbuh), remember that some 20 years ago, David Copperfield seemingly made the Statue of Liberty disappear before a live audience of hundreds as well as a TV audience of countless millions.

Well then, did the Statue of Liberty really vanish or was it merely an illusion?

 

[inJESUS]

I do agree with the posts that talked about the prophecies and fulfillment of Jesus. Hence the previous scriptures back up our belief. However,our scriptures do not back up the claims of Muhamad and Muslims that’s why they claim they are corrupt and reject them, unlike us who have OT and NT together and which continue each other.As if Jews corrpted things related to Muhammad but left the things that point out to Jesus…go figure.

 

[Booklover]

To those who are citing the testimony of the “500 eye witnesses” as proof of the divinity of Jesus (pbuh), remember that some 20 years ago, David Copperfield seemingly made the Statue of Liberty disappear before a live audience of hundreds as well as a TV audience of countless millions.

Well then, did the Statue of Liberty really vanish or was it merely an illusion?

If your answer is that it was merely an illusion that David Copperfield did, then why do you say that it is not possible that God also performed an illusion in order to fool those who intended to harm Jesus (pbuh)?

On the other hand, if your answer is that what David Copperfield did with the Statue of Liberty was real and not an illusion, then does this make David Copperfield divine as well?

Muslim apologetics are absurd! Now you’re trying to say that the 500 witnesses had a mass halucination and making ridiculous statements about David Copperfield! How many people saw the angel that supposedly appeared to Muhammad?

Vickie

 

[Mirdath]

A Catholic response would be that the Church instructs us to worship this way and that the manner of worship has been passed down through the centuries from the Apostles themselves.

And what is the record of this original mandate to worship in this particular way?

 

[inJESUS]

Muslim apologetics are absurd! Now you’re trying to say that the 500 witnesses had a mass halucination and making ridiculous statements about David Copperfield! How many people saw the angel that supposedly appeared to Muhammad?

Vickie

nobody. How many heard the voice from heaven that attests to Jesus?

 

[Booklover]

What’s so surprising about that? Christianity justifies itself based on the bible in exactly the same way. Catholicism adds a second loop for the papal succession, but it’s the same reasoning: we’re right because this says we’re right, nevermind that we came up with it.

If that reasoning makes sense to Christians when applied to Christianity, why shouldn’t it make sense to Muslims when applied to Islam?

Nonsense! The whole Islamic religion is based simply on one man’s word:

Who brought the Quran: Muhammad

How do you know the Quran is the word of God: Muhammad said so.

How do you know Muhammad is the last messenger of God: The Quran said so!

Now do you get the circular reasoning behind this?

Vickie

 

[pharmacistUH]

I commend your willingness to fight for the faith, but the problem here is that this thread is not about Christainity, but Islam.

Don’t get hooked by paarsurrey’s diversion.

Sorry, I just wanted to see what a Muslim would say to that response so I can know what to say in real life. My apologies for straying off-topic.

 

[eliasaph99]

And what is the record of this original mandate to worship in this particular way?

As I said, the testimony of the Church is the record. This testimony is contained in the Bible, in oral teachings, in histories and other writings, in architecture and art, etc.

 

[StMarkEofE]

As I said, the testimony of the Church is the record. This testimony is contained in the Bible, in oral teachings, in histories and other writings, in architecture and art, etc.

One insurmoutable question keeps knibbling at my mind: Why would God send His only begotten Son into the world to redeem ALL manking not just non-Muslims? Did God make a mistake or did He misjudge or was His Son dying on the cross and Resurrection insufficient for our salvation or not complete and needed another “Prophet” to correct this mistake?

It just doesnt make sense logically or theologically.:ehh: :byzsoc:

 

[inJESUS]

One insurmoutable question keeps knibbling at my mind: Why would God send His only begotten Son into the world to redeem ALL manking not just non-Muslims? Did God make a mistake or did He misjudge or was His Son dying on the cross and Resurrection insufficient for our salvation or not complete and needed another “Prophet” to correct this mistake?

It just doesnt make sense logically or theologically.:ehh: :byzsoc:

neither Muhammad, nor Joseph Smith,nor Gulam Ahmad nor Bahaullah make sense neither logically nor theologically. To give credit to their self-proclamations, they have to either twist scriptures or reject them- cult leaders techniques. But Jesus warned us of false prophets already.

 

[Mirdath]

Now do you get the circular reasoning behind this?

Sure, it’s circular, I never said otherwise! It’s just that that accusation is hilarious coming from a Christian

eliasaph99:

As I said, the testimony of the Church is the record. This testimony is contained in the Bible, in oral teachings, in histories and other writings, in architecture and art, etc.

In whose record? Who made and kept these records?

 

[inJESUS]

Sure, it’s circular, I never said otherwise! It’s just that that accusation is hilarious

coming from a Christian i partially agree. It is correct that a Christian must say one time or the other that “the Bible says so”. But to a Christian, Jesus is what He taught, what the disciples who witnessed God’s voice taught, and all the OT prophecies. To a Christian, it is not the testimony of one person,but of all scripture, prophecies, and people who heard God’s testimony about Jesus. However, in Islam, they reject scriptures since they contradict what Muhammad said,based on his claim that he encountered a “spirit” that nobody heard. That’s a lot of difference .

 

[Mirdath]

i partially agree. It is correct that a Christian must say one time or the other that “the Bible says so”. But to a Christian, Jesus is what He taught, what the disciples who witnessed God’s voice taught, and all the OT prophecies. To a Christian, it is not the testimony of one person,but of all scripture, prophecies, and people who heard God’s testimony about Jesus. However, in Islam, they reject scriptures since they contradict what Muhammad said,based on his claim that he encountered a “spirit” that nobody heard. That’s a lot of difference .

Just like you reject the Jewish dietary law based on a voice only Peter heard in Acts, no?

It all still boils down to ‘we’re right because we said so’.

 

[OneAugustKnight]

Just like you reject the Jewish dietary law based on a voice only Peter heard in Acts, no?

It all still boils down to ‘we’re right because we said so’.

Actually, we don’t follow Jewish dietary law because of what Jesus said in the Gospel of Mark. It is supported Peter in Acts, and supported by Paul twice in the New Testament.

 

[Mirdath]

Actually, we don’t follow Jewish dietary law because of what Jesus said in the Gospel of Mark. It is supported Peter in Acts, and supported by Paul twice in the New Testament.

Peter obviously thought it still held up until that incident, and I figure he of all people would know.

 

[inJESUS]

Just like you reject the Jewish dietary law based on a voice only Peter heard in Acts, no?

It all still boils down to ‘we’re right because we said so’.

Good point but:

Number 1: Peter IS an authority because he was given authority from Jesus.Hence we do not question his authority cuz we’llbe questioning Jesus’ words.Inother words, we do not doubt who Peter is that’s why we do not doubt what he said.

Number 2:what Peter taught does not oppose what Jesus taught.From a second account ( see?):

“‘Are you so dull?’ he asked. ‘Don’t you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him "unclean”? For it doesn’t go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.’ He went on: ‘What comes out of a man is what makes him “unclean.” For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man “unclean.”’" Mark 7:18-23

From a theological point of view, we have Mark reporting the same idea so it’s not only Peter,hence 2 witnesses so far.

Not to forget that the passage is not about food per se, but about the relationship between Jews/Gentiles for it ends with:

You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call ANY MAN IMPURE OR UNCLEAN. So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?’… Then Peter began to speak: ‘I NOW REALIZE how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.’" refer to Acts 10:9-23, 27-29, 34-35.

This same idea of not differentiating between Jews and Gentiles based on food or circumcision on ecc is elaborated by most of the disciples.

All in all, the person is reliable, his teachings are reliable and in harmony with what Jesus and all the other disciples wrote so from a theologicl point of view it is not questionable .

But when Muhammad teaches, you ask him,just like you ask Joseph Smith : in what authority? the answer is Allah of course but neither scriptures nor other prophets attested to his teachings when other disciples were in harmony with what Peter taught so more than 1 person.

 

[Mirdath]

Good point but:

And what did you just quote to back up your disagreement with me? I rest my case.

 

[inJESUS]

And what did you just quote to back up your disagreement with me? I rest my case.

sorry i don’t have Peter’s phone number if that’s what you were expecting.Come on,you can do better than that

 

[Mirdath]

sorry i don’t have Peter’s phone number if that’s what you were expecting.Come on,you can do better than that

Yet you expect every Muslim in the world to have a big, old, Cold-War-movie-style red telephone hotline to Mohammed?

Their justification for their faith is no sillier than yours.

 

[inJESUS]

And what did you just quote to back up your disagreement with me? I rest my case.

ok i\llexplain again . I surely cannot prove to you that Peter had indeed a vision. What makes me believe what someone says?

1- Authority

2- Content

3- scriptures

1- He is Jesus’ disciple so he is an authority

2- The content of the vision is what Jesus taught elsewhre.

3- Other disciples reported the same theme.

therefore there is nothing that makes me question the truth of his claim.

Muhamad:

1- Authority : None- He was neither Jesus’ disciples, nor was he sent by Jesus neither is he prophecized by Jesus nor any other disciple nor is there a need to a figure like him just as we don’t need the rest of cult leaders.

2-Content: he contradicts both OT and NT in many places.

3- No witnesses, no other disciples/prophets affirmed his claims but many things he taught are not taught in the gospels, but are in opposition to what he taught.

Based on these, he fails the test.

The question is not whether we can prove he had revelation or not just in the same way i can’t prove Peter had a vision since i don’t have a videotape dating 2000 years ago but the person, the message and the disciples give me no reason whatsoever to doubt he did see a vision but in the case of Muhammad the 3 points in which he failed give me serious reasons to doubt his message.