Muslims and "Circular Reasoning"

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Is that “finest using Arabic” or “finest per se”?

As you don’t speak Gaelic, I could claim something about a Gaelic poem, and you’d be (by your own rules) excluded from commenting. Except when have you ever followed your own rules of debate?
This is truly obvious. Yes, I could not comment on your Gaelic poetry.

What’s controversial about that? How on earth does someone who doesn’t speak a particular language comment on the artfulness of poetry in said language?
 
How many letters and sounds are there to express the same language by the many cultures of the earth? There might be some validity to reading reading Plato in ancient Greek to get a particular nuance of some words, but no one suggetss the overall meaning is lost is diminshed because it is now printed in English…or Japanese. I think it is silly and incredably limiting to suggest the human language in one form is significantly different as any other in conveying any messege. If that were true, cracking the secret Japanese or German codes during WW2 would not be worthwhile.

My only opinion on it is that it was directed to the Jews, for the Jews of the time. The Jews were not commanded to convert others then or now. They were commanded to seperate themselves genetically by not mixing with other races and to remain pure in their belief if God for a purpose that was realized in Christ through Mary- a Jewish girl.

If Mohammedeans limited their killing to their own faith as the Jews did at that time- it might be a different argument. But they do not and it isn’t. Why do you think the Jews of today do not continue with the premis you suggest?
Wait a second: The bible verse says to kill anyone who practices a different faith.

It does not say “kill only Jews who want to convert away.” It says: Kill anyone who worships another God.

And it doesn’t say anything about “Only Jews” or “Only for this time.”

Why did you add that part in? And why do you reject any Muslim claim that you should interpret verses about war in the Quran in much the same way, as directed for a specific time and purpose?
 
There is a limitation- Where is the command to force convert the rest of the world to accept God as the Jews did? Do you think the Jews just grew out of it or are too weak to do it now? If there were a billion plus Jews instead of 15 million- do you think they would be fighting/killing all the non-believers as the Mohammedean culture?

For the thrid time- what do you believe?
Well, the commnad is there for you to read: Kill anyone who isn’t worshipping your God.

There is no conversion because the command is to kill.

I believe there is a God. Apart from that, I don’t identify with a religion.
 
Why didn’t this Ali Dashti guy and all the “other scholars who shared his point of view” just accept the Qur’anic challenge to produce a Surah like that is found in the Qur’an?
whether they did or not, whether others now do or not, the outcome is the same for the simple reason that the judge is a Muslim. Do you realize the absurdity of this challenge?

Prove that the Quran is better than the Bible and **i am the Judge. **. Do you realize what will happen?

The challenge is simply absurd. It is a flawed challenge that reflects a human mind, not God’s mind

The challenge, instead of convincing me that it is the word of God, does exactly the opposite because it is a flawed challenge that God would not make.

the real test of truth is how well it stands when stripped of eloquence:

When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power.
– 1 Corinthians 2:1-5

Eloquence can serve both truth and lies.
 
This challenge to produce a Sura like it is by no means a subjective one and can in fact be tested objectively.

The following is an excerpt from an article:

The Arabic language and Arab speech are divided into two branches. One of them is rhymed poetry. It is a speech with metre and rhyme, which means every line of it ends upon a definite letter, which is called the ‘rhyme’. This rhymed poetry is again divided into metres or what is called as al-Bihar, literally meaning ‘The Seas’. This is so called because of the way the poetry moves according to the rhythmic patterns. There are sixteen al-Bihar viz; at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Wafir, al-Kamil, ar-Rajs, al-Khafif, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madid, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab and as-Saria’. Each one rhymes differently.

The other branch of Arabic speech is prose, that is non-metrical speech. The prose may be a rhymed prose. Rhymed prose consists of cola ending on the same rhyme throughout, or of sentences rhymed in pairs. This is called “rhymed prose” or sajc. Prose may also be straight prose (mursal). In straight prose, the speech goes on and is not divided in cola, but is continued straight through without any divisions, either of rhyme or of anything else. Prose is employed in sermons and prayers and in speeches intended to encourage or frighten the masses.

So, the challenge is to produce in Arabic, three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen al-Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook.

It is interesting to note that all of the known pre-Islam and post-Islamic poetry falls in the above sixteen metres or al-Bihar. Indeed the pagans of Mecca repeatedly accuse Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) of being a forger, a soothsayer etc. The Arabs who were at the pinnacle of their poetry and prose during the time of revelation of the Qur’an could not even produce the smallest surah of its like. The Qur’an’s form did not fit into any of the above mentioned categories. It was this that made the Qur’an inimitable, and left the pagan Arabs at a loss as to how they might combat it.

And as the Qur’an itself says:

And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith. (Qur’an 2:23-24)
 
Pro Universal is talking about Arabic’s eloquence in the Quran and not its content. It is something an Arab can determine since he knows the language. I can’t correct a English paragraph if i don’t know the grammar of English.

but here is a point that Muslims fail to realize : at the compilation of the Quran, there were verses in dispute. None of those who compiled it chose a verse because " oh it is Allah’s language when the other is human!". What they based their arguments on is the reliability of it. The ones not put in the Quran have the same stylistic features yet not found in the Quran. Eloquence was simply NOT the standard for differentiating between what is from Allah and what is not.
 
Hamba, i did not understand sorry. If the Quran is neither all prose, nor all poetry, how does this make it miraculous?
 
Wait a second: The bible verse says to kill anyone who practices a different faith.

It does not say “kill only Jews who want to convert away.” It says: Kill anyone who worships another God.

And it doesn’t say anything about “Only Jews” or “Only for this time.”

Why did you add that part in? And why do you reject any Muslim claim that you should interpret verses about war in the Quran in much the same way, as directed for a specific time and purpose?
Quote the OT verses, please. What is the context, timing and period in which they were given. I added nothing. I understand from the context and reality of what took place then to what takes place now. What leads you to belive it is a perpetual directive? Does it say?

I reject the Mohammedean verses for many reasons, but becasue they say the whole of the Koran is valid for all time even when they refuse to identify the abrogated verses the Quran says have been surpassed. Why won’t they identify them…becasue the abrogated verses are the more tolerant ones spoken in Mekka (pre-flight to Medina) when Mohamed was weak and boycotted.

It isn’t my fault the Qur’an is a faulty book, and reading it in Arabic would make no more sense than it does in English. Those verses say there is no compulsion in religion. Many verses in Sura 9 is largely accepted as one of the last to be revealed, and it is about the most violent of all. Also there are many verses that suggest the tolerance and good will to be shown is limited to other Muslims. Most of the verses are quite clear what Islam should do with the non-Mohammedean.

I’ll assume you know the Quran is not chronological, and many verses included in one chapter (sura) have no bearing on others in the Quran. Years after Mohamed the Koran was compiled in no particular order, but assembled in groups of text that were then assembled from longest to shortest group.

Just on the surface of things I do not think God would make it so difficult to understand what He said.
 
Hamba, you still do not get it. EVEN IF someone wrote something better than the Quran you will reject it. This is the subjectivity of the challenge because YOU are the judge. If you judge against what the Quran says, it means you are a KAFFIR.
 
Well, the commnad is there for you to read: Kill anyone who isn’t worshipping your God.

There is no conversion because the command is to kill.

I believe there is a God. Apart from that, I don’t identify with a religion.
Quote the OT verses you are speaking about. Let’s see if one of us is either reading too much of it, or not enough.
 
Hamba, you still do not get it. EVEN IF someone wrote something better than the Quran you will reject it. This is the subjectivity of the challenge because YOU are the judge. If you judge against what the Quran says, it means you are a KAFFIR.
From the article:

It is interesting to note that all of the known pre-Islam and post-Islamic poetry falls in the above sixteen metres or al-Bihar. Indeed the pagans of Mecca repeatedly accuse Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) of being a forger, a soothsayer etc. The Arabs who were at the pinnacle of their poetry and prose during the time of revelation of the Qur’an could not even produce the smallest surah of its like. The Qur’an’s form did not fit into any of the above mentioned categories. It was this that made the Qur’an inimitable, and left the pagan Arabs at a loss as to how they might combat it.

Therefore, it is not the Muslims today who are the judge, it was instead the pagan Arabs at the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)… and countless detractors of Islam since then who have all conceded defeat in their efforts to produce a Surah like it.
 
Quote the OT verses you are speaking about. Let’s see if one of us is either reading too much of it, or not enough.
Deuteronomy 13:
7
"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or your intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known,
8
gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other:
9
do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him,
10
but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.
11
You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the LORD, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.
"If, in any of the cities which the LORD, your God, gives you to dwell in, you hear it said
14
that certain scoundrels have sprung up among you and have led astray the inhabitants of their city to serve other gods whom you have not known,
15
you must inquire carefully into the matter and investigate it thoroughly. If you find that it is true and an established fact that this abomination has been committed in your midst,
16
you shall put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, dooming the city and all life that is in it, even its cattle, to the sword.
 
From the article:

It is interesting to note that all of the known pre-Islam and post-Islamic poetry falls in the above sixteen metres or al-Bihar. Indeed the pagans of Mecca repeatedly accuse Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) of being a forger, a soothsayer etc. The Arabs who were at the pinnacle of their poetry and prose during the time of revelation of the Qur’an could not even produce the smallest surah of its like. The Qur’an’s form did not fit into any of the above mentioned categories. It was this that made the Qur’an inimitable, and left the pagan Arabs at a loss as to how they might combat it.

Therefore, it is not the Muslims today who are the judge, it was instead the pagan Arabs at the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)… and countless detractors of Islam since then who have all conceded defeat in their efforts to produce a Surah like it.
can you provide us with the writings of these pagan arabs so that we compare? and who was the judge when these pagans presented their writings?
 
Verisimilitude,
Many verses in Sura 9 is largely accepted as one of the last to be revealed, and it is about the most violent of all. Also there are many verses that suggest the tolerance and good will to be shown is limited to other Muslims. Most of the verses are quite clear what Islam should do with the non-Mohammedean.
I’ll assume you know the Quran is not chronological, and many verses included in one chapter (sura) have no bearing on others in the Quran. Years after Mohamed the Koran was compiled in no particular order, but assembled in groups of text that were then assembled from longest to shortest group.
Just on the surface of things I do not think God would make it so difficult to understand what He said.
As for this, yes I am aware that the Quran is not organized chronologically, and I’ve also looked into the issue of the dates Surahs were revealed.

I have read the book, and I really do not find it that complicated to understand. Surah 9 in particular, is really not that controversial. I think perhaps your problem is that instead of reading the entire verse, you read a quote taken from a website.

Virtually every single quote that says “make war” is followed or follows a verse that says “only do this if you are attacked.” So no, I don’t agree with you that the Quran commands lots of violence.
 
Deuteronomy 13:
if someone caused the people to worship other gods he was put to death . He is not to be put to death because he refused to worship your god, as far as i know. Jews do not kill anyone for not following their religion. They preserve themselves, but they don impose themselves on others.
 
Verisimilitude,

As for this, yes I am aware that the Quran is not organized chronologically, and I’ve also looked into the issue of the dates Surahs were revealed.

I have read the book, and I really do not find it that complicated to understand. Surah 9 in particular, is really not that controversial. I think perhaps your problem is that instead of reading the entire verse, you read a quote taken from a website.

Virtually every single quote that says “make war” is followed or follows a verse that says “only do this if you are attacked.” So no, I don’t agree with you that the Quran commands lots of violence.
am not very interested in such arguments usally, but what does this verse mean:

Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. S. 9:29

Is it related to being attacked as well?
 
Can you name just one “objective scholar” who says that the Qur’an is not miraculous?

In any case, the Qur’an itself answers this question when in many places, it challenges the people to produce a Surrah like one of its Surrahs. It appears that the Christian missionaries who call the challenge irrelevant or an utterly subjective criterion are pretty much unaware of how the Arabic poetry and prose compares with the Qur’an.

The following verses of the Qur’an deal with this challenge:

If the Mankind and the Jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur’an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another.
(Al-Qur’an 17:88)

And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.
(Al-Qur’an 2:23-24)

Ever since the Qur’an was revealed, fourteen centuries ago, no one has been able to produce a single chapter like the chapters of the Qur’an in their beauty, eloquence, splendor, wise legislation, true information, true prophecy, and other perfect attributes.

The smallest chapter in the Qur’an (Chapter 108) is composed of only ten words, yet no one has ever been able to meet this challenge, then or today. Some of the disbelieving Arabs who were enemies of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) tried to meet this challenge to prove that Muhammad (pbuh) was not a true prophet, but they failed to do so.
Can you provide some objective criteria of what constitutes a sura? As claimed above, its neither poety nor prose, so I assume you can’t use those criteria.
 
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