Muslims and gay people

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Kadaveri said:
Under an Islamic state yes the punishment for homosexual sex is death, the details are the same as they are in Jewish law I think.
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You are wrong here, Kadaveri. In Israel, no one has been put to death for “homosexual sex.”

Jesus is the New Covenant, he fulfilled (and changed) the old Law of lex talionis. That is why the majority of early Christians were former Jews who understood their scriptures and knew Jesus to be the Messiah.

Now, why doesn’t Allah give souls to women as he has to men? Why are they unequal in Allah’s eyes?
 
That’s because Israel is a secular nation, it is not governed by the laws of the Torah. You must accept that Jesus (as) changing the laws of the Torah is only a Christian belief, try telling any Orthodox Jewish Rabbi that the laws of the Torah don’t apply anymore, you won’t have much luck convincing them I assure you.

Create a new thread if you want to talk about women, it doesn’t belong in a thread about homosexuality.
 
Kadaveri said:
Under an Islamic state yes the punishment for homosexual sex is death, the details are the same as they are in Jewish law I think.
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Maybe someone who is knowledgeable about Old Testament laws could comment on this. Although it is considered a sin to engage in a homosexual act, I don’t think that the bible list any specific punishment for doing so. I might be wrong though.

Does anyone know if the bible lists a punishment for engaging in homosexual acts?:confused:
 
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Leviticus 20:13
 
Kadaveri said:
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Leviticus 20:13
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Kadaveri, do you believe people who have gay sex should be put to death?
 
Kadaveri said:
try telling any Orthodox Jewish Rabbi that the laws of the Torah don’t apply anymore, you won’t have much luck convincing them I assure you.
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You’d wouldn’t have much luck convincing them that you can separate Written Torah from Oral Torah or that you can understand one without the other.

The death penalty was extremely rare even in biblical times, by the way.
 
Kadaveri said:
That’s because Israel is a secular nation, it is not governed by the laws of the Torah. You must accept that Jesus (as) changing the laws of the Torah is only a Christian belief, try telling any Orthodox Jewish Rabbi that the laws of the Torah don’t apply anymore, you won’t have much luck convincing them I assure you.

Create a new thread if you want to talk about women, it doesn’t belong in a thread about homosexuality.
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They have laws *based *on Jewish laws, as we in the west have laws based on Christian ideals. Israel has Jewish national holidays. (See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holidays_and_events_in_Israel)

It’s great to cite that Israel, and the west can be so pluralistic in their outlook
 
Kadaveri said:
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Leviticus 20:13
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There’s also laws about work on the Sabbath. Who’s the last person you know of who was killed/stoned by Jews for doing this?
 
The death penalty was extremely rare when the Khaliphate was in existence to, since adultery/homosexual sex could only be proven via a confession (which could be retracted at any time) or four witnesses swearing to have seen the accused people having sex (not many people have sex in front of four people knowing that it is illegal).

And don’t beat around the bush bringing up Israel, whether some of their laws are ‘based’ on Jewish laws or not, the fact of the matter is that it’s a secular state. The only reason the punishment for working on the Sabbath isn’t stoning is because the Jewish theological state doesn’t exist; the Jews don’t believe that it will come back until the arrival of their Messiah. But officially speaking, the Orthodox Jewish position is when the Messiah returns, the Jewish theological state will be created and laws such as that would be reintroduced.
 
Kadaveri said:
The death penalty was extremely rare when the Khaliphate was in existence to, since adultery/homosexual sex could only be proven via a confession (which could be retracted at any time) or four witnesses swearing to have seen the accused people having sex (not many people have sex in front of four people knowing that it is illegal).

And don’t beat around the bush bringing up Israel, whether some of their laws are ‘based’ on Jewish laws or not, the fact of the matter is that it’s a secular state. The only reason the punishment for working on the Sabbath isn’t stoning is because the Jewish theological state doesn’t exist; the Jews don’t believe that it will come back until the arrival of their Messiah. But officially speaking, the Orthodox Jewish position is when the Messiah returns, the Jewish theological state will be created and laws such as that would be reintroduced.
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Do you believe that people who have gay sex should be killed, Kadaveri?
 
There is nothing inherently noble about dating. It is a custom in secular states because we have little of any culture to rely upon. It’s a **** shoot which doesn’t advance or reveal anything in particular. The lack of dating has nothing to do with homosexual experimentation as far as I can find. I’m glad we don’t kill people for unnatural acts but am sad that the acts are now widely accepted in what passes for Western “civilization”. As nonsensicle as it is in many areas in Europe and America these perversions are even praised as inducive to artistic and intellectual achievement. Practically speaking I don’t know how one would enforce such a law but I would not be opposed to the acts being illegal.

CDL
 
GregoryPalamas said:
There is nothing inherently noble about dating. It is a custom in secular states because we have little of any culture to rely upon. It’s a **** shoot which doesn’t advance or reveal anything in particular. The lack of dating has nothing to do with homosexual experimentation as far as I can find. I’m glad we don’t kill people for unnatural acts but am sad that the acts are now widely accepted in what passes for Western “civilization”. As nonsensicle as it is in many areas in Europe and America these perversions are even praised as inducive to artistic and intellectual achievement. Practically speaking I don’t know how one would enforce such a law but I would not be opposed to the acts being illegal.

CDL
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Well Gregory, gay sex is a sin and so is fornication. But Our Lord showed mercy to the woman who was about to be stoned for adultery. We should follow the example of Our Lord in all things.
I thank God that I do not live in a country where people are murdered as a punishment for gay sex or fornication. I thank God that I live in a country where people have civil rights.
 
Kadaveri said:
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Leviticus 20:13
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Thank you for the bible verse.🙂
 
Ella said:
Kadaveri, do you believe people who have gay sex should be put to death?
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I do . If it is according to the law enacted by the state . Their should be proof of the act , the proof shouldnt be based on spying.

Feeling gay though doesnt deserve the punishment. Poeple have the urge to sin all the time. If a gay person doesnt have gay sex then he is free.

Meedo
 
meedo,

Thanks for your honesty. It is still horrifying, but you don’t hide Islams propensity for killing people. I am no friend to gay rights people, but I don’t advocate execution.
 
Kadaveri said:
The death penalty was extremely rare when the Khaliphate was in existence to, since adultery/homosexual sex could only be proven via a confession (which could be retracted at any time) or four witnesses swearing to have seen the accused people having sex (not many people have sex in front of four people knowing that it is illegal).
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Please show stats.

I know in Nigeria there was a famous case of a woman who was raped (and she wasn’t married). She needed four witnesses to prove the rape, and failed. She became pregnant. She therefore showed obvious signs of having had sex, and as she wasn’t married, this was deemed a proof of adultery. She faced the death penalty but was able to escape due to the publicity and well-meaning people who intervened on her behalf.
Kadaveri said:
And don’t beat around the bush bringing up Israel, whether some of their laws are ‘based’ on Jewish laws or not, the fact of the matter is that it’s a secular state.
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With laws that stem from Hebrew culture. I didn’t bring up Israel, another person did. You responded. I responded to you. But I’m glad you thought I was the author of something, though I won’t take credit for it.

In Hebrew and Christian society we’ve learnt to be pluralistic. Islam has trouble with that. Even ‘modern’ Turkey launched pogroms on Christians including in the 1950s. And they continue to deny the Armenian holocaust.

However, Christian nations such as Australia allow for plural expressions of opinion.
Kadaveri said:
The only reason the punishment for working on the Sabbath isn’t stoning is because the Jewish theological state doesn’t exist; the Jews don’t believe that it will come back until the arrival of their Messiah. But officially speaking, the Orthodox Jewish position is when the Messiah returns, the Jewish theological state will be created and laws such as that would be reintroduced.
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Jews living in Israel are, for the most part happy about having a secularist state. More power to them.

You as a Moslem see this as a weakness and exploit it, through claims of ‘freedom of speech’ which Islam doesn’t believe in, and so on.
 
cestusdei said:
meedo,

Thanks for your honesty. It is still horrifying, but you don’t hide Islams propensity for killing people. I am no friend to gay rights people, but I don’t advocate execution.
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I agree, it’s a sin. The ‘gay rights’ parade (*Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras *as its called here) is the same as if we were having a “Burglar-Pride Parade” in which another group of sinners can gather together to show they are proud of what they do.
 
meedo said:
I do . If it is according to the law enacted by the state . Their should be proof of the act , the proof shouldnt be based on spying.

Feeling gay though doesnt deserve the punishment. Poeple have the urge to sin all the time. If a gay person doesnt have gay sex then he is free.

Meedo
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I agree in that I don’t think that having a sexual attraction is a sin but acting on it is.

Thank you for your candor. I don’t think that gay people should be put to death. In an ideal world, they would recieve support to assist them of resisting their urges.

Just a question, if Muslims ever become the majority in America and began to vote in Muslim representatives would those representatives feel compelled by their religious morals to change the laws about homosexuals in this country? Perhaps make them more restrictive?
 
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