Muslims and the future of our Nation

[exoflare]

Axion:

The problem is that while Muslims are rushing into the western Christian nations, settling, building mosques, evangelising, demanding freedom of religion and dress, and other things…

In Muslim majority countries the Christians are being persecuted and bombed and threatened and being driven out. Building churches and converting muslims is forbidden. Try and criticize the Muslim scriptures in any muslim land, and you’ll end up dead or in hiding, running for your life.

This is producing a ratchet where Muslims increase in Christian lands while driving out Christians in their own lands. 50 years ago Algeria had 2.5 million Catholics. Now there are barely 2,000. France had very few Muslims, now there are Millions. If that continues much longer we’ll all be living under Muslim rule in a few decades.

I’m beginning to believe that Muslim rights in the West need to be dependent on Christian rights to practice, build churches and evangelise openly and convert, being enforced in Muslim nations.

Exactly, they’re only “tolerant” of us here right now because they know they’re still a minority in America. If America ever became Islam, history would not fail to repeat itself.

 

[jjwilkman]

Munawar:

Hi Exoflare,

Of course, the biggest reason Muslims believe the OT and NT have been corrupted is because God says so.

But at a material level there are two issues:

1. The OT and NT contain syntactical errors.
2. No originals of either book remains. There is no way to know, if this is what the disciples recorded, or what Moses (and others) stated.

Munawar

dead sea scrolls?

 

[Greg72]

Munawar:

Hi Everyone,

I’m a Muslim and new to the forum. I wanted to comment on these two questions:

“1. Why do you have so little regard for the Tanakh (Old Testament)? I thought that we were all “people of the book””

Actually the Tanakh is held in esteem By Muslims. The point though is that we believe that it has been changed with time. Hence only the Quran is the unchanged word of God, since its revelation to man.

Though our beliefs differ, I admire your manner and reasoning (even though I disagree with it).

Munawar:

1. Why do you believe that our increasingly-secular society is an accurate representation of Christianity?"

I don’t! I agree that most of the world is going secular, not just America.

I’m very glad to hear that.

Munawar:

The problem is when religious people go along with secular nations, and agree with their policies.

I agree, although I don’t think that we should necessarily go along with a theocratic nation either.

Thanks for answering my questions in such a nice and reasonable manner. There has been regretable behaviour on both sides of this discussion.

• Greg

 

[Greg72]

Malachi4U:

Greg72:

…London is currently about 10% Muslim, and unlike many Christians on this side of the ocean, they regard children as an absolute blessing (and therefore raise large families).

God considers them a blessing too! Read Scripture. The Catholic Church has still remained loyal to God even in the USA.

Most Catholics practice birth-control (I’ve read that 85% of them over here disagree with Rome on that one). Many Catholics have 1.5 children, just like most Protestants. The new generations of Christians are enjoying bigger houses, full of adult toys instead of children. Even if the Catholics adhered to Rome’s wishes, they are still a minority here. The Muslim population is growing much more rapidly for many reasons, so we should be prepared (understanding where they are coming from is a good start).

Malachi4U:

Greg72:

…Although I hope that neither of our countries become Muslim, at the current rate, it is entirely possible that they will outnumber us (in Canada) within the next couple of decades.

Is that so bad? Look at what has happened in the USA today. We murder more babies each year then Hitler could gas helpless people. This doesn’t even count the baies murdered by the pill and IUD’s Homosexuals becomming role models for our children. Ordained Protestant homosexual clergy. Etc… This is where the reformation has taken the USA.

Yep, things are certainly going to hell quickly. I’m just not sure that Islam is the answer (in fact, I’m quite certain that it isn’t).

Malachi4U:

God promised those Faithfull to Him with Hope for salvation a great reward. He said His body, His Church would be persecuted. Stay loyal to Jesus, stay loyal to His body His Catholic Church, endure in Hope until the end. Do not worry, Christ is on your side. He saw what will happen and warned us about it. He gave us His Church to lead us.

God bless,

I’m definitely looking forward to becoming a part of the Catholic Church. Hopefully the world will still be around next year

• Greg

 

[Wolseley]

Shenango:

Munawar is speaking from a Muslim perspective, from where he already holds the Qur’an to be the literal Word of God, and thus that’s his standard of judgement. You’re free to hold yours as well.

For now we are…for now.

If we were in Saudi Arabia, we would not be free to hold our own standard of judgement, though, would we? That’s against the law.

 

[stanley123]

Greg72:

Most Catholics practice birth-control (I’ve read that 85% of them over here disagree with Rome on that one). Many Catholics have 1.5 children, just like most Protestants.

I read similar percentages from several different sources. (Referring to married couples of child bearing age). What does this indicate except that Catholics may not take their religion as seriously as Muslims do.

 

[exoflare]

Wolseley:

For now we are…for now.

If we were in Saudi Arabia, we would not be free to hold our own standard of judgement, though, would we? That’s against the law.

My sentiments exactly. Maybe we should follow their loving example here and impose a “special tax” on all non-Christians?

 

[Greg72]

stanley123:

Greg72:

Most Catholics practice birth-control (I’ve read that 85% of them over here disagree with Rome on that one). Many Catholics have 1.5 children, just like most Protestants.

I read similar percentages from several different sources. (Referring to married couples of child bearing age). What does this indicate except that Catholics may not take their religion as seriously as Muslims do.

It indicates a couple of things.

1. Even though God considers children a blessing and the Catholic Church encourages people to have children (or at least to not interfere with the process), there is no guarantee that people will be obedient.
2. The Christian population is declining, over here, at the same time that the Muslim population is increasing.

I wouldn’t want to judge which group takes their more religion seriously, but it’s fairly easy to see where we’re headed if nothing changes. Seeing the pro-choice feminists lose most of their rights would almost be worth the price of admission.

• Greg

 

[FuzzyBunny116]

Why is not wanting children so bad? I’m still a kid, but they seem like quite a lot of work to me, and I don’t really plan on having them. These views on having children sort of scare me out of even wanting to be married.

 

[selvaraj]

Present Qura`n RECITED AND CORRUPTED.

Othman did a great service to Islam by sending out standard copies of the Qur’an to provincial capitals. The need arose from a dispute about the way of reciting the Holy Qur’an. People of Iraq recited it one way and the people of Syria in another way. The matter came up before the Caliph in 30 A.H. “We copy the way of Abu Musa Ashari,” said the Iraqis.

“And we follow the way of Miqdad bin al-Aswad,” declared the Syrians.

Othman put the matter before the Companions. All agreed that the copy prepared in Abu Bakr’s time was the standard one. After Abu Bakr, it had passed into the hands of Omar, and now it was with his daughter, Hafsa. Othman got this copy. Zahid bin Thabit, the trusted scribe of the revelation, was asked to prepare seven copies from it. He was to be helped by three more men, who had the Qur’an by heart.

Zaid himself had the whole Qur’an by heart. He was also one of the scribes of the revelation. First, he wrote out the whole book from memory. Then he read it out to a gathering of Muhajirun and Ansar three times. Then he compared this copy with the one that was with Hafsa. The two copies were exactly alike. Seven more copies were then written out and sent to different parts of the country.

anwary-islam.com/companion/ten-othma-bin-Affaan.htm
In Christ,
selvaraj

 

[alfredo]

FuzzyBunny116:

Why is not wanting children so bad?

Are you Catholic or Christian? If so,
see Genesis chapter 9, vs 7.
According to Catholicism, it is a mortal sin to use any form of artificial birth control to limit the number of children, as it frustrates the primary purpose of marriage. However, it is not a sin to remain unmarried and abstain.

 

[alfredo]

Greg72:

It indicates a couple of things.

1. Even though God considers children a blessing and the Catholic Church encourages people to have children (or at least to not interfere with the process), there is no guarantee that people will be obedient.
   …
   I wouldn’t want to judge which group takes their more religion seriously, but it’s fairly easy to see where we’re headed if nothing changes. Seeing the pro-choice feminists lose most of their rights would almost be worth the price of admission.

I can understand your reluctance to say so, but still, if one group (Muslims) obeys the commandments of its religion, while the second group (Catholics) does not, it might indicate that those who are obeying the commandments of their religion are taking it more seriously?

 

[Jennie66]

FuzzyBunny116:

These views on having children sort of scare me out of even wanting to be married.

Then perhaps you shouldn’t be married…

 

[FuzzyBunny116]

I wasn’t referring to birth control, I was referring to a couple just not wanting kids.

 

[Greg72]

alfredo:

I can understand your reluctance to [judge which group takes their more religion seriously], but still, if one group (Muslims) obeys the commandments of its religion, while the second group (Catholics) does not, it might indicate that those who are obeying the commandments of their religion are taking it more seriously?

Yes, but are enough people involved to judge the whole group?

I hear that Iraq was advancing women’s rights - were all of those changes in line with Islamic law. Do their adherents keep up their practices over here, or do they go the way of many Catholics? Maybe that’s why they insist on mixing religion and politics - because their followers, for the most part, will wind up just like us if they aren’t living in fear.

Similarly, North America is a drop in the bucket compared to the Catholic Church’s roughly 1 billion overall members. I would hardly judge the entire Catholic body based on what’s going on in our continent (especially since so many Catholics here, and abroad, are PO’d about it )

• Greg

 

[hlgomez]

Of course, the biggest reason Muslims believe the OT and NT have been corrupted is because God says so.

Munawar,

I’m sorry BUT it is YOUR and all muslims interpretation of the OT and NT that is corrupted. You cannot interpret the Word of God with your own, otherwise you become God. We adhere to the interpretations that comes to us from the Apostles because the Holy Spirit revealed it to them and handed down to us. Don’t be fooled by Muhammad’s interpretation of the Gospels because he associated himself with Christian heretics, in particualr the Arian heretics who denied Christ divinity, and it is where he based his writings about Christianity and understanding about Jesus when he wrote the Quran.

Pio

 

[UnworthySoul]

Sharia law is no way to live. I have seen it firsthand in Saudi Arabia, I was there for four months. Women, while Muslims claim to treat them with respect, are treated as complete inferiors to men, as property. The Wahabbi brand of Islam is particularly virulent and violent. No, if America became an Islamic nation, I would don the martyrdom for Christ rather than convert. I’m sorry but I’ve seen it with my own eyes. The Mutawa (religious police) walking up and down the streets of Riyadh with nightsticks in hand looking for people violating Islamic law, women not allowed to work, drive, or even walk next to their husbands. Being told by Muslims there that if my crucifix ring was seen by the Mutawa I could face prison. No way I would live under Muslim rule. I would die fighting it.

 

[Munawar]

Jennie66:

As a woman, I would have to say, “Yes!” It would not be good to have a Muslim U.S.A.! While men would retain their accustomed lifestyle, things would change dramatically for women and girls here - and in my opinion and observation from having experienced Islam first hand in western Europe - it would not be for the better. Please consider the brutal treatment of women and girls (who by the way I am **not **so sure are regarded as a blessing the way male offspring are) in predominantly Muslim countries before concurring that it wouldn’t “be so bad” to have a Muslim U.S. Is that really what you want for your wife, mother, sister(s) and daughter(s)?

Hello Jennie66,

In Islam, women are not treated brutally, in fact they recieve equal rights to a man. You’ll be surpised to hear many American women willingly become Muslim, including many Catholics I know.

I dont mention this to show-off; But simply to show you that your idea of what Islamic treatment of women is.

Munawar

 

[Munawar]

UnworthySoul:

Sharia law is no way to live. I have seen it firsthand in Saudi Arabia,

Hi USoul,

Saudi Arabia is not an example of life under Islamic Law. It is an example of life under the tribe of Saud.

Munawar

 

[Munawar]

hlgomez:

I’m sorry BUT it is YOUR and all muslims interpretation of the OT and NT that is corrupted. You cannot interpret the Word of God with your own, otherwise you become God. We adhere to the interpretations that comes to us from the Apostles because the Holy Spirit revealed it to them and handed down to us. Don’t be fooled by Muhammad’s interpretation of the Gospels because he associated himself with Christian heretics, in particualr the Arian heretics who denied Christ divinity, and it is where he based his writings about Christianity and understanding about Jesus when he wrote the Quran.

Hello HlGomez,

Yes, this is the Islamic viewpoint. Please understand that Islamic beliefs are not meant to insult you. Just as you consider Islam to be a religion of Satan.

Secondly, the Prophet Muhammad never associated with Christians in his life. And he was illiterate, so he wouldn’t have read the Bible.

Munawar