Muslims and Universalists, what do you think of these verses?

[firstmode]

What do the Universalists and the people who believe God reaches all his people through the Abrahamic religions/sister faiths (Christianity, Islam, Judaism), think of these verses?

**Acts 4:12

…It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11He is " ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone.’ 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

Romans 10:8-10

8But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

1 John 2:21-23

21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.**

KORAN:

“The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was no more than God’s apostle . . .God is but one God. GOD FORBID THAT HE SHOULD HAVE A SON!” (4:171)

Those who say: “The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son, preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack . . .” (19:88)

”God forbid that He Himself should beget a son!” (19:29)

“Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom . . .” (17:111)

“God has begotten a son. ‘God forbid! Self-sufficient is He.! (10:68)

“If the Lord of Mercy had a son, I would be the first to worship him.” (43:72-81)

 

[seeker57]

OK, I guess since I’m a Unitarian Universalist, I’ll bite.

The biblical quotes don’t have much meaning.

As a Universalist, I don’t believe anyone needs to be “saved.” I believe God will eventually bring all his creations to him.

As a Unitarian, I do not believe in what Catholics and other Christians call the “Trinity.”

I believe Jesus was a wise man, but there have been others, to paraphrase the Rev. Christine Robinson, a UU minister.

As far as the quotations from the Quran go, they all basically say the same thing, that Jesus was a prophet of God, but not the son of God.

I don’t agree, because I don’t believe God needs any prophets.

I know I am treading on thin ice here, because I know that Muslims and Christians place a lot of faith in their respective holy books. Both are supposedly divinely inspired as well.

But I don’t believe that either. The Bible has its good points, but it is a book and there are others that likewise have good points.

I have not read the Quran yet, but plan to do so. Until then, I will reserve comment on what I think of it.

I hope this answers your question.

Seeker.

 

[spencer2]

Hey seeker, ever wonder why the gospels proclaim Jesus’ healing power? He makes the blind see, the paralytics walk, the figtree wither on his command. That’s some powerful prophet

 

[elwill]

Hey seeker, ever wonder why the gospels proclaim Jesus’ healing power? He makes the blind see, the paralytics walk, the figtree wither on his command. That’s some powerful prophet

i think that for any prophet to proof to his people that he is prophet , God should give him a sign to his people
the sign must to be something challanger for those people

miracle of moses (pbuh) were in magic , because egyption were powerfull in it
miracle of jesus (pbuh) were in healing , because people of this time were powerfull in medicine
miracle of mohammed (pbuh) were in literacy and in the languge because his people were powerfull in it either

 

[spencer2]

Changing water into wine is not healing and neither is walking on water. Causing the roman soldiers to be slain by the revelation of his name and identity “I AM”. His foreknowlege of events and ability to read people’s souls. Must I go on?

 

[viveret]

First of all, Elwill, I won’t assert to you that Jesus was divine. Clearly, your faith forbids such a perception. But,

miracle of moses (pbuh) were in magic , because egyption were powerfull in it
miracle of jesus (pbuh) were in healing , because people of this time were powerfull in medicine
miracle of mohammed (pbuh) were in literacy and in the languge because his people were powerfull in it either

I don’t believe in magic.
I don’t believe the Egyptians could have been magical at all.
What they were was extraordinarily intelligent and advanced-- the creators of the first nation-state in the world.
I doubt people living at the time of Jesus were extraordinarily skilled in medicine. The Hellenistic kingdoms had several important scholars in medicine, but these people were pagan polytheists. Remember that Jesus’s miracles had to do with more than just healing of the sick. The most powerful of them have to do with demons.
Not only did Jesus cast out demons from those cursed, but other people actually cast out demons in his name. Even though these false-prophet healers had no faith in Jesus’s divinity, and eventually such people would not be saved, they still cast out the demons in Jesus’s name.
Mohammed did not actually write the Koran. It was dictated to him.
So the literary genius attributed to him is ultimately attributable to God. Also, when I read a work by a literary genius, Kafka, for example, it really doesn’t matter if the work is translated or not. The message is so profound that it is just as powerful in English as it is in German.
I have been told that the message of the Koran is not as powerful in other languages as it is in Arabic.
This, in my opinion, does not mean that Arabic is superior to other languages. Instead, it means that the message is so abstruse and unapplicable to the human condition that it is impossible to put into other languages clearly.

 

[Publisher]

All salvation given to humanity is through the astounding mercy and love of God as found in Jesus of Nazareth.

If a Muslim is saved…it is by the grace and mercy of God…just like with a Quaker…or Nazarene…or Catholic…Orthodox…Universalist…Atheist…Agnostic…Hindu…any salvation and eternal life comes throught the grace and mercy of God in Christ.

 

[Sufjon]

Might it be safe to say that all Abrahamic religions/sister faiths believe in Jesus, but,

1. They don’t all agree on what He was, and
2. Of the ones that do agree on what He was, not all agree on what He meant by what He said and did?

So, then might it be safe to conclude that this is about as close as you’re all going to get in regards to what is in your minds? Regarding what is in your hearts, I bet you are all on the right track.

Respectfully,
Sufjon

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

i think that for any prophet to proof to his people that he is prophet , God should give him a sign to his people
the sign must to be something challanger for those people

miracle of moses (pbuh) were in magic , because egyption were powerfull in it
miracle of jesus (pbuh) were in healing , because people of this time were powerfull in medicine
miracle of mohammed (pbuh) were in literacy and in the languge because his people were powerfull in it either

The miracle of Moses was he instituted the negative laws “Thou Shall Not Kill.” “Thou Shall Not Steal.” (The Ten Commandments / The Mosaic Laws) and that laid a path for the…
miracle of Jesus. He institute positive laws “‘You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.’ And, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
But the miracle of mohammed was he reverse those miracles of Moses and Jesus, which is a reversal of morality and mercy. islam (mohammed’s gift to the world, a religion of peace) seems to go beyond “an eye for an eye…” it stands in stark contrast to Judaism (the root of Christianity) where even in the time of the Old Testament the ancient Hebrews understood that Justices was to be tempered by mercy.

The few stories I hear of through the media are always the same, the punishment outweighs the crime. The stories that stick in my mind lately are Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani, Donatella the Asiatic black bear of the Kabul Zoo, Suicide Bomber kills 10 Sufis.

 

[seeker57]

All salvation given to humanity is through the astounding mercy and love of God as found in Jesus of Nazareth.

If a Muslim is saved…it is by the grace and mercy of God…just like with a Quaker…or Nazarene…or Catholic…Orthodox…Universalist…Atheist…Agnostic…Hindu…any salvation and eternal life comes throught the grace and mercy of God in Christ.

Although I respect your right to hold your beliefs, I don’t agree with them.

While there are some Unitarian Universalists who describe themselves as Christian (albeit a very liberal Christian), it is unlikely even they would agree with the concept of salvation.

The reason is the concept of a God who punishes or condemns is foreign to us, as is the concept of hell.

If there is no condemnation, there need be no salvation.

Seeker.

 

[Sam_777]

KORAN:

“The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was no more than God’s apostle . . .God is but one God. GOD FORBID THAT HE SHOULD HAVE A SON!” (4:171)

Those who say: “The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son, preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack . . .” (19:88)

”God forbid that He Himself should beget a son!” (19:29)

“Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom . . .” (17:111)

“God has begotten a son. ‘God forbid! Self-sufficient is He.! (10:68)

“If the Lord of Mercy had a son, I would be the first to worship him.” (43:72-81)

Simple answer: It’s a man made scripture.
Deep answer: 1 John 2:21-23.

 

[elwill]

Changing water into wine is not healing and neither is walking on water. Causing the roman soldiers to be slain by the revelation of his name and identity “I AM”. His foreknowlege of events and ability to read people’s souls. Must I go on?

no , your point is clear , i understand that jesus did many other miracles , but i’m talking about the major , greatest , main and the exclusive miracle

muslims believe that mohammed (pbuh) performed many miracles either beside quran , but still the quran is his exclusive and greatest of them

 

[elwill]

First of all, Elwill, I won’t assert to you that Jesus was divine. Clearly, your faith forbids such a perception. But,

I don’t believe in magic.
I don’t believe the Egyptians could have been magical at all.
What they were was extraordinarily intelligent and advanced-- the creators of the first nation-state in the world.

i completly agree with you
the magic dosn’t neccery to mean black magic
when you decieve the eye of someone and make him imagine something not real , even if it was by extraordinary intelligent , it will still called magic according to the crowd
moses (pbuh) challanges those people who have the science of magic ( extraordinary intellegent ) , that’s why they were the only one could recognize the fact that the power exist with moses isn’t like the one they have , they knew it’s miracles from God and not a magic , becuase they knows what the magic is

i will answer the rest of your post later

peace

I

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Elwill:

I was wondering if you could respond to the scripture cited in the OP, which was partially addressed to Muslims.

 

[elwill]

Elwill:

I was wondering if you could respond to the scripture cited in the OP, which was partially addressed to Muslims.

i don’t find John contradict Quran , as for muslims believe that jesus is the christ

the other verses contradict quran , and i believe in quran , beside it’s not the words of jesus nor his teaching

 

[Publisher]

Although I respect your right to hold your beliefs, I don’t agree with them.

While there are some Unitarian Universalists who describe themselves as Christian (albeit a very liberal Christian), it is unlikely even they would agree with the concept of salvation.

The reason is the concept of a God who punishes or condemns is foreign to us, as is the concept of hell.

If there is no condemnation, there need be no salvation.

Seeker.

For “a” Quaker view of universalism…you may want to read “If Grace is True” and “If God is Love” by Philip Gulley and James Mulholland…great books.

Many Friends would agree with you…I do not believe in a God who punishes and condemns his children…but seeks to bring them to Himself as a loving parent seeks a lost child…or a Lover" seeks their true love…we each are the Beloved of God and are "Safe’ because of the depth of the love and grace of God as found in Christ.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

the other verses contradict quran , and i believe in quran , beside it’s not the words of jesus nor his teaching

My friend, stop and think on that for a moment.

We have here a source given by the disciples of Christ, dated close to the time of Christ, and with plenty of manuscript evidence from that time period to verify what it says. Furthermore, it compliments that which came before it and is in line with the revelation. The New Testament does not confirm the Old, but rather the Old Testament confirms the New (the constant citations of the Old by the apostles and Christ confirm this).

Now, we have the Quran, which came 600 years later from a different land, a different culture, speaking a different language, and teaching things contradictory to which came before it, and with no direct citations. You are now telling us, “Whatever agrees with this later standard is correct, and whatever disagrees with it is incorrect.”

Please, do not just brush through this post and say, “Well I’m just going to say that the Quran is God’s word,” and leave it at that. Seriously consider these words. How would you perceive it if a later revelation (heck, the Ba’hai revelation) claimed to be in line with Mohammad and the Quran, yet contradicted much of what the Quran taught and in fact claimed that the Quran had been corrupted, and expected you to hold their newer revelation as a standard…how would you perceive that logic to be?

Again, I ask that you seriously consider these things and please not just brush them aside. They’re not written for your humiliation but your edification.

 

[elwill]

My friend, stop and think on that for a moment.

We have here a source given by the disciples of Christ, dated close to the time of Christ, and with plenty of manuscript evidence from that time period to verify what it says. Furthermore, it compliments that which came before it and is in line with the revelation. The New Testament does not confirm the Old, but rather the Old Testament confirms the New (the constant citations of the Old by the apostles and Christ confirm this).

Now, we have the Quran, which came 600 years later from a different land, a different culture, speaking a different language, and teaching things contradictory to which came before it, and with no direct citations. You are now telling us, “Whatever agrees with this later standard is correct, and whatever disagrees with it is incorrect.”

Please, do not just brush through this post and say, “Well I’m just going to say that the Quran is God’s word,” and leave it at that. Seriously consider these words. How would you perceive it if a later revelation (heck, the Ba’hai revelation) claimed to be in line with Mohammad and the Quran, yet contradicted much of what the Quran taught and in fact claimed that the Quran had been corrupted, and expected you to hold their newer revelation as a standard…how would you perceive that logic to be?

Again, I ask that you seriously consider these things and please not just brush them aside. They’re not written for your humiliation but your edification.

i agree with you that i should stop and think a moment

first of all we have many sources be claimed to be given by disciples but you consider it heretics ,
secondly , while we talking about the records which dated close to the time of christ , then why the other canons and other sects are not involved
do you know how many of canons and beliefs was raised about jesus which all of them dated close to the time of christ !

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

i agree with you that i should stop and think a moment

first of all we have many sources be claimed to be given by disciples but you consider it heretics

Yes…and I honestly believe your prophet Mohammad would consider them heretics as well.

secondly , while we talking about the records which dated close to the time of christ , then why the other canons and other sects are not involved

Because, again, they did not reflect either a Judeo-Christian or even Islamic mindset.

You also know (or I hope you would know) that in the early years of Islam there were many sects that claimed to have commands from Mohammad or be in line with Islamic belief, but were simply heretical by Muslim standards. There were good reason to reject them. Likewise, there are plenty of good reasons to ignore the Gnostic and neo-Gnostic beliefs that sprung up around that time. Most of them were pagan and held beliefs that, again, even Mohammad would say were heretical.

 

[seeker57]

For “a” Quaker view of universalism…you may want to read “If Grace is True” and “If God is Love” by Philip Gulley and James Mulholland…great books.

Many Friends would agree with you…I do not believe in a God who punishes and condemns his children…but seeks to bring them to Himself as a loving parent seeks a lost child…or a Lover" seeks their true love…we each are the Beloved of God and are "Safe’ because of the depth of the love and grace of God as found in Christ.

Thanks for the suggestion of the books Publisher. I will track them down.

Seeker