W
water
Guest
I heard on Relevant Radio that some Muslims pray to Virgin Mary for Her intercession.
Is it true?
Is it true?
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E
exoflare
Guest
Not if they follow their religion, they don’t.
W
water
Guest
Virgin Mary is for all. 
H
havemercy
Guest
Muslims revere her. Ask her to intercede in prayer? I don’t think so.
W
water
Guest
well, someone said on the radio that some Muslims - not all.
Also, some of them support the Relevant Radio, but I don’t think I should give out names.
H
havemercy
Guest
Well, that’s certainly interesting. She’s certainly more popular in Islam than in some Protestantisms, but I’m fairly sure she isn’t prayed to.
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exoflare
Guest
True as that is, Islam still teaches not to pray to her.Virgin Mary is for all.
M
Montalban
Guest
So are the saints. When was the last time you heard a Moslem talking about their patron saint?
M
Montalban
Guest
So high in fact that the Koran says she’s one of the Trinity
H
hamba2han
Guest
Speaking of which, the word ‘Trinity’ is not mentioned even once in the Bible… but it is indeed mentioned in the Qur’an.
004.171
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
005.072-73
They do blaspheme who say: “Allah is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
Considering it’s immense significance in Christian belief, for the word ‘Trinity’ to not appear even once in the Bible would be akin to the word ‘chicken’ not appearing even once in a book detailing the history of KFC, don’t you think?
E
exoflare
Guest
Your little rant is off-topic. Start another thread.
By the way, you already brought up this attempt at a baited question here…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=133466&page=5
…where by sheer coincidence, it was subsequently dismantled by yours truly.
Do you really forget that easily, or are you just running out of copy-paste material to use for your DAWA?
M
Montalban
Guest
The word ‘Muhammed’ isn’t meantioned in the Bible either.
It’s a non-argument. The word Bible doesn’t appear once in the Bible either, and it’s the central book to our beliefs.
The word Trinity is simply one to describe a function that is present *in *the Bible, that of the relationship of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Thanks for your non-point though.
Incidentally even your attempt at humour doesn’t work, because everyone knows that the C in *KFC *stands for chicken, thus the absecene of the word in no way lessens the meaning. Your example works against you. Do you know what the K stands for? If you do, then you’ve argued against your objection re: the word Trinity
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hamba2han
Guest
Actually, the name is indeed mentioned in the Bible… but I think it would be better to explain this in a new thread, God-willing, sometime soon.
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Booklover
Guest
Hamba, don’t waste your time. You’ve tried to prove this before and it’s all nonsense! Please stop using our “corrupted” Bible to prove the validity of Muhammad!
Vickie
B
buffalo
Guest
**Mary and the Muslims
**By Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen
Muslimism is the only great post-Christian religion of the world. Because it had its origin in the 7th century under Mohammed, it was possible to unite within it some elements of Christianity and of Judaism, along with particular customs of Arabia . Muslimism takes the doctrine of the unity of God, his majesty and his creative power, and uses it, in part, as a basis for the repudiation of Christ, the Son of God. Misunderstanding the notion of the Trinity, Mohammed made Christ a prophet announcing himself (Mohammed) just as to Christians, Isaiah and John the Baptist are prophets announcing Christ.
The Christian European West barely escaped destruction at the hands of the Muslims. At one point they were stopped near Tours and at another point, later on in time, outside the gates of Vienna . The Church throughout northern Africa was practically destroyed by Muslim power, and at the present hour, the Muslims are beginning to rise again.
more…
**By Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen
Muslimism is the only great post-Christian religion of the world. Because it had its origin in the 7th century under Mohammed, it was possible to unite within it some elements of Christianity and of Judaism, along with particular customs of Arabia . Muslimism takes the doctrine of the unity of God, his majesty and his creative power, and uses it, in part, as a basis for the repudiation of Christ, the Son of God. Misunderstanding the notion of the Trinity, Mohammed made Christ a prophet announcing himself (Mohammed) just as to Christians, Isaiah and John the Baptist are prophets announcing Christ.
The Christian European West barely escaped destruction at the hands of the Muslims. At one point they were stopped near Tours and at another point, later on in time, outside the gates of Vienna . The Church throughout northern Africa was practically destroyed by Muslim power, and at the present hour, the Muslims are beginning to rise again.
more…
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Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
An Islamic community near Melbourne Australia named their place of worship the Virgin Mary Mosque.
But I think I agree with the general consensus on this thread and Islam does not teach to pray to anybody except God (aka Allah).
Now now, Montalban; No need to be snide.
Thanks hamba2han; but don’t change the subject. This thread is interesting.
Mary; Our hope for unity?
K
Kadaveri
Guest
Wow… This is like, the third or fourth time you’ve said this and I’ve shown to you that the Qur’an says no such thing. You just do not want to learn do you? If you want to remain ignorant then that’s your right, but don’t force your ignorance on others.
But to the topic: no although Muslims do hold Mary very dearly, we do not pray to her for intercession (or to anyone, but God).
M
Montalban
Guest
Wow, just because you repeat yourself, it must be true. The Koran specifically says that Christians worship Mary as part of the Trinity - and urges Moslems not to do the same.
Q: Iv) According to Qur’an and earlier commentaries, the Christian Trinity consists of God, Mary and Jesus, e.g. 5:116.
A: (d) There were and there are such Christian denominations who include Mary in God head. As they are lesser in number, Qur’an mentioned them. But on other occasions, when the Qur’an denounces Trinity, the statement is applicable to all those who practice any kind of Trinity in the worship of God. The following verse may include even thou who believe in the Trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, professing God-head for them.
islamicvoice.com/april.98/OURD.HTM
Remember this is AFTER the Trinity was affirmed, and as I claimed earlier, Muhammad got his idea from heretical Christians and he simply assumed that they were representative of all Christians.
But there’s more…
From elsewhere on the same site…
“As for erroneous Christian concepts, the Qur’an speaks of the Christian belief in the trinity and their claim that Jesus, son of Mary, was Allah Himself. They also attribute divinity to Jesus and his mother, considering them gods. They also consider their priests and monks to have divine authority.”
islamicvoice.com/february.98/SPEA.HTM
"The following verses in the Qur’an say about Mary being the part of Trinity.
And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, ‘Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah’?” He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. [Qur’an 5:116]
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger from Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not “Three”: desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. [Qur’an 4:171]"
The Islamic way of learning is to remember what’s constantly repeated, with no discussion. Not like that do I want to learn
I’m forcing people onto this thread?
This site then makes the laughable attempt at re-writing Christian dogma, to state that when Muhammed stated this, Christians had this as the Trinity, but we later changed it!
It ends with this…
“So, in conclusion, there is no point calling the modern day trinitarian Christianity as ‘true’ Christianity and all others as ‘false’ since the evolution of this doctrine itself is very late. The early Christianity had bizarre beliefs about their doctrine as well as their Scriptures. Moreover the Jesus(P) and early Church Fathers were utterly unaware of this doctrine and they never practiced it. Would then the modern day ‘true’ Christianity brand them as heretics?” (Ibid)
That regardless of which “Trinity” Christians now believe in, it’s still condemned.
Here’s another spin; that by default of honouring Mary as the Theotokos (Mother of God) we make here a member of the Trinity, instead of the Holy Spirit…
" The obvious conclusion is that for all practical purpose and in reality, when the issue is of Worshipping, Venerating, Deifying and/or Idolizing, it is Mary - the “Mother of God” and not the Holy Ghost has that kind of rank and status. Briefly, the historical figures of Jesus and Mary are venerated as Deities. The Holy Ghost is not venerated as a Deity."
mostmerciful.com/mary.htm
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Montalban
Guest
Asides from the sources already cited above
"Question :
If true Christianity brought the message of the Oneness of God (Tawheed), and stated that He alone is to be worshipped to the exclusion of anyone else in His creation, whether that is ‘Eesa (Jesus) or anyone else, then how did this religion become mixed with polytheistic beliefs (shirk) and how did they take ‘Eesa (Jesus – peace be upon him) and his mother as gods besides Allaah?.
Answer…When Christianity conquered Rome, the new religion (i.e., Christianity) was infused with the blood of the old idolatrous religion: the title of archbishop, worship for the great mother, and an innumerable number of lords who gave peace of mind and were like who exist in all places and cannot be detected with the senses. All of this came into Christianity as the blood of the mother comes into her child.
islamqa.com/index.php?ref=12634&ln=eng
Ibn
Abbas, an early Muslim scholar said, what is meant by the Trinity is God the most high, His consort and His son’.[1] Some later commentators saw the Trinity as `God, Mary, and Jesus’.[2] This understanding is based on the Qur’an (see Q. 5:72-75 & 116)answering-islam.org/Mna/trinity.html
Beidhawi [685 AH] (on 4:169) remarks: “Jesus is called the Spirit of God because He makes the dead to live or quickens hearts.” On the following verse he is doubtful; “Either God is the third of three gods or is a triad of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” (Vol. I., p. 319.) He, too, avoids a real explanation of the gross misstatement in the Koran that Mary is one of the persons of the Trinity. The Jilalain [864-911] (Vol. I., p. 278) prove that Jesus cannot be God, “because He has a spirit and everything possessed of a spirit is compounded (murakkib), and God is absolutely without compounding, arrangement (tarkib), i.e.) simple.” He says the Trinity consists of “Allah and Jesus and His mother.”
debate.org.uk/topics/theo/islam_christ.html
Al-Qurtuby and al-Jalalayn also saw this.
“The passage of the Qur’an which suggests that the Trinity consists of Father, Son, and Virgin Mary is doubtless a criticism of some nominally Christian Arabs who held this view.” (Muhammad at Mecca, W. Montgomery Watt, 1953, p 23-29)
“In rude misconception or wilful perversion, Mohammed seems to have understood the Christian doctrine of the trinity to be a trinity of Father, Mary, and Jesus. The Holy Spirit is identified with Gabriel. “God is only one God! Far be it from his glory that he should have a son!” Sura 4, ver. 169; comp. 5, ver. 77. The designation and worship of Mary as “the mother of God” may have occasioned this strange mistake. There was in Arabia in the fourth century a sect of fanatical women called Collyridians, who rendered divine worship to Mary. Epiphanius, Haer. 79.” (Philip Schaff, History of the Christian church, Vol 4, Ch 3)
The Qur’an shows that there was little knowledge in Mecca of the New Testament apart from the story of the virginal conception of Jesus (19.16-21). On the other hand several mistaken ideas about Christianity appear to have been current among the Meccans. They supposed that Christians worshipped three gods, taking both Jesus and Mary as gods. (Muhammad’s Mecca, W. Montgomery Watt, Chapter 3: Religion In Pre-Islamic Arabia, p26-45)
“The Qur’an here denounces the idea of a Triad of Gods, consisting of God, Jesus and Mary. Christians have never believed in this Triad. It is only too true that many ignorant “Christians” in Muhammad’s time worshipped Mary (as some still do), asking her to intercede with her Son for them, and the early Muhammadans may hence have fancied that belief in three separate Gods, of which Mary was one, was what was meant by the doctrine of the Trinity. But such an idea was wrong and of heathen origin.” (A Manual of the Leading Muhammadan Objections to Christianity. W. St. Clair Tisdall, 1904, p 147)
con’t…
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