"Muslims are not like christians who accept insult to their religion"

[estesbob]

A discussion on what constitutes just war is here:

catholic.com/library/Just_war_Doctrine_1.asp

Ive read that and in the endit is up to the State, isnt it?

 

[Thomas58]

You must respect Islam, you must respect Muhammad. Muslims will kill anyone who says that Islam is not a religion of love, peace, and tolerance. Muslims will kill anyone who says Islam is violent religion. Disrespect of Islam will not be tolerated by Muslims, anyone who disrespects Islam by saying that Islam is not a religion of love, peace and tolerance, or anyone that says that Islam is a religion of violence, must be killed.

Did you hear? The British government just knighted Salmond Rushdie to coincide with this week’s Queen’s Birthday Honours. Pakistan suggested it is some sort of diplomatic incident which justifies suicide bombings. Iran Foreign Ministry spokesman Mohammad Ali Hosseini said the decision to praise the “apostate” showed Islamophobia among British officials.

Rushdie, as you know, is the author of “Satanic Verses” which insulted Islam worldwide. Iran issued a fatwa in 1989, ordering Rushdie’s execution.

Lookout for more worldwide rioting, bombings and murder from the religion of peace, love and tolerance… and by the way, not a religion of violence.

Thomas

 

[mark_a]

The below was posted on a thread… it justifies physical attacks against people who disagree with Islam. I think its a good topic for discussion…

With 2 billion Muslims in the world, their view seems to work like a charm.

 

[zackonattack]

Look under their name on one of their posts. When one is in trouble you’ll genrally see them listedas “account under review” or “suspended”. Both of these indicate they have been sat in the corner for a certain amount of time-generally from a couple days d a few weeks, if it wasy “Banned” they are gone forever unlsee thay can convince CAF to let them back in-not an easy thig to do.

The reason I know about this is becuase I have suffered all three in my time on CAF,

Of course he should be allowed to post. We don’t want to be like the Muslims and go ape because someone insults Jesus or Christianity. The reaction of a Muslim, as opposed to a Christian, to insults says alot about who bases their faith on love and who bases it on hate. I’ll never forget that when the cartoons were printed these people went nuts, and killed a perfectly innocent nun that had been in a Muslim country for, something like 30 years helping people. It was obscene and if you give a Muslim enough rope, he will hang himself. You see it time and again. No, free speech trumps idiotic posts.

 

[zackonattack]

With 2 billion Muslims in the world, their view seems to work like a charm.

Numbers mean NOTHING. No, their view works like pure paganism, hate, violence, intolerance etc. Why do you think Islam is so large? It’s because Satan works overtime to lure people into false religion, which Islam is. Of course they think Christianity is false and they are entitled to their opinion. However, a true religion will be known by the fruit it produces. How many Muslim missonaries are in christian countries building hospitals, taking care of orphans, feeding the poor, building irrigation for crops, or providing clean water to out of the way villages? There actions speak for themselves.

 

[BelFarfalla]

With 2 billion Muslims in the world, their view seems to work like a charm.

There are NOT 2 billion Muslims. It’s closer to 1.1 billion… and millions are leaving every year.

There are about 2.4 billion Christians… Catholics alone count for about 1.4 billion of us. Othrodox another half billion. The rest are prodestants, mormons, etc.

 

[Morning_Star15]

A couple of years ago an Iranian Muslim converted to Christianity. They were going to execute him for apostacy. I think he repented to save his lifel. Poor guy.

I find this whole execution for apostacy concept rather puzzling, and I’ve never been able to get a justification for it from a Muslim. I can sort of understand why they would want to execute someone for insulting Islam or Muhammad, but what harm does someone leaving Islam do to any Muslim? Why would you rather have people paying lip-service to Islam when they really believe in Christianity, Buddhism, etc., and would kill them for following a different path that harms no Muslim? What if this convert has young children who will be left orphaned by his/her assassination? How can you justify killing someone who didn’t harm anyone, and harming and possibly killing their innocent relatives as well?

And as far as responding with violence to insults to Islam, not only is it disturbing, but it also does Islam much more harm than good. It gives the world the impression that Muslims consider their faith to be so weak that even a remark or a caricature is a threat to their religion. This certainly doesn’t present Islam as a very strong faith to would-be converts, or the general public. Christians don’t need to resort to violence, since we know that Christ promised us that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. So while we may speak out against attacks or insults on Christianity, we don’t consider the execution of their author to be necessary to the survival and well-being of Christianity.

 

[estesbob]

Of course he should be allowed to post. We don’t want to be like the Muslims and go ape because someone insults Jesus or Christianity. The reaction of a Muslim, as opposed to a Christian, to insults says alot about who bases their faith on love and who bases it on hate. I’ll never forget that when the cartoons were printed these people went nuts, and killed a perfectly innocent nun that had been in a Muslim country for, something like 30 years helping people. It was obscene and if you give a Muslim enough rope, he will hang himself. You see it time and again. No, free speech trumps idiotic posts.

Free Speech in CAF is whatever the Moderators say it is.They are under no obligation to let anyone post. We post here at their pleasure.I almost reported Ahemd when i read a couple of his posts that IMO were borderline threatening. Eviden;ly someone else did. He didnt get banned-he got sat in the corenr for a bit.

 

[BelFarfalla]

I find this whole execution for apostacy concept rather puzzling, and I’ve never been able to get a justification for it from a Muslim. I can sort of understand why they would want to execute someone for insulting Islam or Muhammad, .

You can understand this?

but what harm does someone leaving Islam do to any Muslim? .

It is viewed as a form of treason. Each person who leaves weakens Islam as it makes other doubt. Then more might leave. They view all non-Muslims to be the enemy. Actually Islam divides the world into two… The world of Islam and the world of war. Anyone who is not a Muslim is at war with Islam. So if a Muslim leaves Islam, they have in essence declared war on Islam.

Why would you rather have people paying lip-service to Islam when they really believe in Christianity, Buddhism, etc., and would kill them for following a different path that harms no Muslim? .

Allah and/or Muhammad instructed Muslims to convert, subjugate or kill all non-Muslims. Other religions are allowed to exist only if they are subjugated and humiliated by Islam. This is to put pressure on the non-Muslims to get them to convert. In the mean time the Muslim uma (people) use the non-Muslims like surfs who pay high taxes for use by the Muslims. It works out well for the Muslims. Not so well for the non-Muslims.

What if this convert has young children who will be left orphaned by his/her assassination?

It is better to execute the apostates and put the children in the care of other Muslims. Otherwise the apostate will lead the children away from Islam. Their soul is more important then having a parent. (by the way I am giving you the answers I’ve been given over and over when I’ve asked Muslims these same questions.)

How can you justify killing someone who didn’t harm anyone, and harming and possibly killing their innocent relatives as well?

No one said anything about killing relatives did they? Each person is responsible for their own sins. An apostate hurts the entire of Islam. They are not innocent.

And as far as responding with violence to insults to Islam, not only is it disturbing, but it also does Islam much more harm than good. It gives the world the impression that Muslims consider their faith to be so weak that even a remark or a caricature is a threat to their religion. This certainly doesn’t present Islam as a very strong faith to would-be converts, or the general public. Christians don’t need to resort to violence, since we know that Christ promised us that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. So while we may speak out against attacks or insults on Christianity, we don’t consider the execution of their author to be necessary to the survival and well-being of Christianity.

Muslims believe that it is a show of their faith and their love Muhammad and Allah to defend them. Some apparently large number believe that violence is called for. They view Christians as insincere and weak because we don’t’ do the same thing.

 

[zackonattack]

Free Speech in CAF is whatever the Moderators say it is.They are under no obligation to let anyone post. We post here at their pleasure.I almost reported Ahemd when i read a couple of his posts that IMO were borderline threatening. Eviden;ly someone else did. He didnt get banned-he got sat in the corenr for a bit.

“Free speech is what the moderator says it is.” That’s fine, I can go by the rules, but that statement is like saying "We have free speech as long as ---------fill in the blank----says what we can say.

I understand you being upset with Ahemd, but rather acting like A insuled Muslim, don’t read his posts. Some people love to make idiots out of themselves. so be it!1

 

[estesbob]

“Free speech is what the moderator says it is.” That’s fine, I can go by the rules, but that statement is like saying "We have free speech as long as ---------fill in the blank----says what we can say.

I understand you being upset with Ahemd, but rather acting like A insuled Muslim, don’t read his posts. Some people love to make idiots out of themselves. so be it!1

You need to read the forum rules-there is nothing arbitrary about the rules. I am not uspet with Ahmed-I am not the one who reoported him, But IMO he crossed the line and he is now paying the price.

 

[estesbob]

“Free speech is what the moderator says it is.” That’s fine, I can go by the rules, but that statement is like saying "We have free speech as long as ---------fill in the blank----says what we can say.

I understand you being upset with Ahemd, but rather acting like A insuled Muslim, don’t read his posts. Some people love to make idiots out of themselves. so be it!1

Read the forum rules-there is nothng arbitrary about wehat peosts are aceeptable and which ones are not.

I am not mad at Ahmed at all. I am not the one who reported him. But IMO he crossed the line and he is paying the price.

 

[zackonattack]

Read the forum rules-there is nothng arbitrary about wehat peosts are aceeptable and which ones are not.

I am not mad at Ahmed at all. I am not the one who reported him. But IMO he crossed the line and he is paying the price.

I haven’t read much by Ahmed, but personally I don’t care what he said. So what!!! Like I’ve been saying we all need to chill-out, and stop being “offended.” The PC police are oppressive. Let Ahmed expose his hate and venom. Ignore it. That’s all I’m saying. I for one, can take it and it doesn’t upset me in the least. I just consider the source.

 

[BelFarfalla]

I haven’t read much by Ahmed, but personally I don’t care what he said. So what!!! Like I’ve been saying we all need to chill-out, and stop being “offended.” The PC police are oppressive. Let Ahmed expose his hate and venom. Ignore it. That’s all I’m saying. I for one, can take it and it doesn’t upset me in the least. I just consider the source.

While I have no problem if the moderators allow him to stay, I am glad that they are dealing with him. As non-Muslims it is very important that we take a very strong stance against those Muslims who honestly believe that execution/murder of those who speak unfavorably about Islam will not be tolerated in this community.

As he stated, he believes that Christians are weak and will not stand up for ourselves. He needs to realize that this is not true and that violence and threats are not allowed.

 

[Morning_Star15]

You can understand this?

I said “sort of understand”, in the sense that I can see that they see an insult as a direct attack on Islam and want to get rid of the attacker, as opposed to apostacy, which I don’t know why they would see it as an attack on Islam. I just meant that killing those who insult Islam makes more sense (although still a small amount of sense) than killing those who convert to another religion, who in my POV aren’t hurting anyone.

It is viewed as a form of treason. Each person who leaves weakens Islam as it makes other doubt. Then more might leave. They view all non-Muslims to be the enemy. Actually Islam divides the world into two… The world of Islam and the world of war. Anyone who is not a Muslim is at war with Islam. So if a Muslim leaves Islam, they have in essence declared war on Islam.

Allah and/or Muhammad instructed Muslims to convert, subjugate or kill all non-Muslims. Other religions are allowed to exist only if they are subjugated and humiliated by Islam. This is to put pressure on the non-Muslims to get them to convert. In the mean time the Muslim uma (people) use the non-Muslims like surfs who pay high taxes for use by the Muslims. It works out well for the Muslims. Not so well for the non-Muslims.

It is better to execute the apostates and put the children in the care of other Muslims. Otherwise the apostate will lead the children away from Islam. Their soul is more important then having a parent. (by the way I am giving you the answers I’ve been given over and over when I’ve asked Muslims these same questions.)

No one said anything about killing relatives did they? Each person is responsible for their own sins. An apostate hurts the entire of Islam. They are not innocent.
Muslims believe that it is a show of their faith and their love Muhammad and Allah to defend them. Some apparently large number believe that violence is called for. They view Christians as insincere and weak because we don’t’ do the same thing.

Thanks for the clarification. Very insightful

Interesting with that last part, because as I pointed out in my post, I see the use of violence against those who insult Islam as a sign of weakness, not strength. After all, they kill these people because they are seen as posing a threat to their religion, and why would a strong religion see an insult to Muhammad as a threat to its existence and wellbeing? A strong religion doesn’t need to fear any insults, since its followers believe that their God will sustain their religion no matter what. And there are better ways to show love for God than by killing people that He created. That’s my :twocents:

 

[BelFarfalla]

Thanks for the clarification. Very insightful

Interesting with that last part, because as I pointed out in my post, I see the use of violence against those who insult Islam as a sign of weakness, not strength. After all, they kill these people because they are seen as posing a threat to their religion, and why would a strong religion see an insult to Muhammad as a threat to its existence and wellbeing? A strong religion doesn’t need to fear any insults, since its followers believe that their God will sustain their religion no matter what. And there are better ways to show love for God than by killing people that He created. That’s my :twocents:

I agree with you completely…… IMHO the use of violence in response to an insult is immature, very childish.
The level of violence is escalating again … MUSLIM WORLD INFLAMED BY RUSHDIE KNIGHTHOOD…

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article1951462.ece

FEAR: Controversy will spiral out of control…

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...tml?in_article_id=462779&in_page_id=1811&ct=5

They are calling for the death of Rushdie and have put a price on his head…. And calling for attacks in England….
Like the cartoon jihad… it’s like watching mad men… totally senseless…… This will be the downfall of Islam.

 

[colmywaykurtz]

even if it dont help islam ,we dont accept insult to islam

Sounds like you’re admitting Islam espouses violence, ahmadhassan.

Do you think that’s a road to a righteous peace?

 

[colmywaykurtz]

Numbers mean NOTHING. No, their view works like pure paganism, hate, violence, intolerance etc. Why do you think Islam is so large? It’s because Satan works overtime to lure people into false religion, which Islam is. Of course they think Christianity is false and they are entitled to their opinion. However, a true religion will be known by the fruit it produces. How many Muslim missonaries are in christian countries building hospitals, taking care of orphans, feeding the poor, building irrigation for crops, or providing clean water to out of the way villages? There actions speak for themselves.

To an extent, that’s true. But I think Islam maintains its numbers partly through fear and coercion of people, whether newly-converted or lifelong Muslims descended from generations of Muslims. That is why I believe that its core of support has an unsuspected softness that would be Islam’s undoing in the event the West becomes re-Christianized and a Huntington-esque “clash of civilizations” takes place.

 

[kellie]

Hi
I don’t confuse anybody, at least that is my intention. A happy smiling face of a human being whatever his religion, pagan or atheist, I like that and I would prefer to see that rather than a confused and upset person. I think it is inhuman and I would never confuse anybody .
Thanks

Kindly let God speak for Claim and Reason on every issue and you would know the truth for sure.

I can’t believe you completely ignored the reason for my post when I said you confuse me, and you blab on about how good you intend to be.

Stop trying to promote yourself, and answer my questions.

Is it written in history and the Quran that Mohammed ordered executions on people who disrespected Islam?

If so, how does that comply with your statements time and time again that he was a peaceful, and peace loving man who never did any harm?

 

[quantumDeus]

Ive read that and in the endit is up to the State, isnt it?

“Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s” … Yes, it is up to the state, but the criteria is there for what constitutes a just war by a secular entity.