Muslims beginning to own up to violence

[planten]

There are black sheep in every religion.

Admitted. Quite True. But then the next question will be “More or Less?”

 

[Mosacked]

Peaceful Or Violent, let the non-contextual Quran speak for itself.

**
Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and slaughter the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Qur’an:9:112 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”

Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”

Ishaq:325 “Muslims, fight in Allah’s Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious.”

Qur’an:8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”

Ishaq:324 “He said, ‘Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.’”
**

http://www.muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com

.

 

[planten]

Peaceful Or Violent, let the non-contextual Quran speak for itself.

**
Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and slaughter the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”**

Mosacked, you have been dishonest. You did not present the complete verse 9:5. Your translation also lacks comprehension standards.

Let me present the complete verse. It is all about the pagans of Arabia, the arch enemies of Islam.

Al-Quran 9:5,
"When the sacred months have passed, fight (an kill) the pagans (Polytheists) wherever you find them. Catch them and trap them and watch all of their paths. But if they they repent and and they perform prayers and pay the zakat (Poor money) then leave them alone. Surely Allah is most forgiving, Merciful."

There is no harm. Why Mosacked is advocating for the pagans?? There was no conflict with the people of books. The only enemy of Muslism were the pagans. They were told before time that they will be defeated. It happened like that. The pagans had no right to live in that city (Makkah) any more.

They were liable to be killed for their crimes. But the Prophet Muhammad foragve them enmasse (all of them). He let them live in the city quietly for four months only. After that they were either to accept that they were wrong or they were to leave the city of Makkah.

If any did not repent and did not believe (become a follower of Muhammad) and did not leave the city,then their punishment was death. What was wrong with that??

Perhaps Mosacked wants that those pagans breed some more paganism in that holy city and disturb the peace of the city??

I will not discuss the rest of the verses presented by Mosacked. They are all misguiding ideas of Mosacked about Islam. Nobody need pay any attention to those words. If Jesus was a pious word then all the words of Mosacked are unholy words. Ignore them please.

 

[John7]

John7, Then please keep on waiting for the reply till doomsday !!!

why? what happens on doomsday that will make you answer the question?

 

[jen_fla]

Maria, whatever is the color of the sky, That Chaudary fellow in UK seems to be planted by the Catholics to harm the cause of the peaceful Muslims in UK. He seems to be playing the tune of the Catholics that islam is a violent religion. Yet he also says that he is non-violent:

What to believe???

planten, you are insinuating lies based on absolutely nada. for your information the CBN is not Catholic and to suggest that by their taking an interview from this guy means that they planted him in the UK to make islam look bad is utterly childish and moronic.

 

[Mosacked]

Mosacked, you have been dishonest. You did not present the complete verse 9:5. Your translation also lacks comprehension standards.

Let me present the complete verse. It is all about the pagans of Arabia, the arch enemies of Islam.

There is no harm. Why Mosacked is advocating for the pagans?? There was no conflict with the people of books. The only enemy of Muslism were the pagans. They were told before time that they will be defeated. It happened like that. The pagans had no right to live in that city (Makkah) any more.

They were liable to be killed for their crimes. But the Prophet Muhammad foragve them enmasse (all of them). He let them live in the city quietly for four months only. After that they were either to accept that they were wrong or they were to leave the city of Makkah.

If any did not repent and did not believe (become a follower of Muhammad) and did not leave the city,then their punishment was death. What was wrong with that??

What is wrong??? You threaten to slaughter people unless they repent and believe you, and you ask what is wrong??? Something is wrong of course, but its not these people, its you.

Perhaps Mosacked wants that those pagans breed some more paganism in that holy city and disturb the peace of the city??

You slaughter people in order to get peace??? There’s something terribly wrong with you.

I will not discuss the rest of the verses presented by Mosacked. They are all misguiding ideas of Mosacked about Islam. Nobody need pay any attention to those words. If Jesus was a pious word then all the words of Mosacked are unholy words. Ignore them please.

The only unholy things around here are islamic.

Planten, you show by your reply that your mental capacity is highly suspect. Nobody kills another and then claims it is for peace. And nobody threatens to kill another unless the other submits and then shamefully claims it is an act of peace.

You should really consider your humanity to be beneath the morals of mankind.

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com

.

 

[jen_fla]

i had to shorten your quote due to length requirements.

Muhammad lead wars because he was forced into those wars by the pagans and Christians… He married more than one wife. That was no crime. Other prophets before him had multiple wives. You are judging Muhammad by your christian standard which is faulty.
You have accused Muhammad of marrying an under age girl. That is false. You do not remember that all the other wives of Muhammad were either widows or over aged divorced ladies. Aisha, whom you say was under age, was about 16 years old when she was married to Muhammad.

her age was never in dispute until the early 1900’s and even then this lone scholar claimed closer to 10. planten, i do believe you know better as this has come up time and time again on threads you have been a part of and if by some bizarre chance you don’t, then you need to seriously question the lies you were taught about your religion.

**Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234:

Narrated Aisha:

The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. **

and he was well over 40!

Do you think mohammed beat his 6 yr-old wife because she wouldn’t have sex with him?

hi john. i don’t know about beating her for not having sex (can you show text?), but he certainly beat her.

planten, were you not aware that mohammed struck his wife?

**Book 004, Number 2127:

Muhammad b. Qais said (to the people): Should I not narrate to you (a hadith of the Holy Prophet) on my authority and on the authority of my mother? We thought that he meant the mother who had given him birth. He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was 'A'isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi'. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'A'isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you? She said: Whatsoever the people conceal, Allah will know it. He said: Gabriel came to me when you saw me. He called me and he concealed it from you. I responded to his call, but I too concealed it from you (for he did not come to you), as you were not fully dressed. I thought that you had gone to sleep, and I did not like to awaken you, fearing that you may be frightened. He (Gabriel) said: Your Lord has commanded you to go to the inhabitants of Baqi' (to those lying in the graves) and beg pardon for them. I said: Messenger of Allah, how should I pray for them (How should I beg forgiveness for them)? He said: Say, Peace be upon the inhabitants of this city (graveyard) from among the Believers and the Muslims, and may Allah have mercy on those who have gone ahead of us, and those who come later on, and we shall, God willing, join you.

**

i pray for you often, planten, that Jesus Christ, Lord of us all will open your eyes.

peace to you and your family.

 

[schaick]

A huge problem occurs because Islam is a complete idealogy it’s goal is to must control **every aspect **of everyone’s life including laws and government.

Where Christianity must turn it’s other cheek to those that strike us, Islam fights. What kind of religion is that? It isn’t. Islam is an idealogy like communism, worse then communism because a god to it.

Christianity is separate from state. You can blame the poor actions of Christians if they don’t follow Jesus but actions of any government can not be blamed on the religion of Christianity.

Our GOD will take care of us we are safe in HIS arms, HE is our Father.

Allah has you do his fighting for him, yet he is distant and doesn’t care about you personally- only if you kill for him are you assured paradise.

 

[planten]

jen fla, do not rely on Hadith to malign any one. Even then the Hadith is more reliable than your bibleNT. We know that our books had been infiltrated. That was to mislead us.

It is news for you that all children of Abu bakr were born before the prophet got the first revelation (Wahi.) That was in 610 A.D. So Aisha was born before 610 A.D. Say 608 A.D. The prophet migrated to Madinah in 622 A.D. He married Aisha two years after migration, that was in 624 A.D. That makes the age of Aisha more than 15 years.

Also remember that when the prophet and AbuBakr were migrating to Madinah, it was Aisha who prepared and tied up a bundle of food for her father and the prophet. Do you believe that a four year old girl could do that?
What have you got to say about That?? You can leave those Hadith and also try to pick up another subject, not the dirty subject. I mean think of something good about Muhammad, if you are a good person. The rest is all flaw.

 

[planten]

A huge problem occurs because Islam is a complete idealogy it’s goal is to must control **every aspect **of everyone’s life including laws and government.

Where Christianity must turn it’s other cheek to those that strike us, Islam fights. What kind of religion is that? It isn’t. Islam is an idealogy like communism, worse then communism because a god to it.

Shaikh, nothing of that. The Communism was hatched amongst the christians.

Christianity is separate from state. You can blame the poor actions of Christians if they don’t follow Jesus but actions of any government can not be blamed on the religion of Christianity

.

What You are talking?? The vatican tried to control governments even in foreign countries. We know that Pope used to interfere and exert his pressure on all western governments for a very long time. Pope did not allow King Henry the 8th to marry Ann Bolean. So the King of England revolted against the Roman catholic rule and adopted Protestant faith in England. So there was a new church of England by revolt against the Roman catholic rule.

Our GOD will take care of us we are safe in HIS arms, HE is our Father.

Allah has you do his fighting for him, yet he is distant and doesn’t care about you personally- only if you kill for him are you assured paradise.

Keep hoping for the best. You will be judged by God and we will also be judged The God.

 

[mark_a]

The real problem within Islam is lack of central authority.

I just don’t see how the peaceful Islamists can win against the violent ones.

The violent Islamists have become the voice of Islam worldwide.

 

[schaick]

The real problem with Islam is that each is his own authority. Sounds familiar doesn’t it?

Oh My Goodness! Don’t even go there! NO, actually that is not true. We can not let that happen!! If Muslims had one calph- and they were united, we would be in deep trouble!

The main goal of Islam is to have Islam be supreme-one organized leader with every aspect of your life controlled by Islam- what you eat, how you dress, how and when you pray, even how you clean yourself after defecating! As non-muslims we would have very little rights, we would forced to live as dhimmis.

Islam is a political, social, religious idealogy that would set the world back to the mentality of 600AD.

Religion and state do not mix, a caliph would unite Muslim forces. No religion should be in politics because religion is not of this world, but the next. Muslims don’t get that their religion is of this world.

Islam under the caliphs extended over parts of 3 continents, Pakistan across the Mideast and North Africa to what is now Spain and Portugal. Today it could easily take over not only is there violent Jihad but a kind of back door jihad where muslims are using our laws to break down our democracies.

Islam and democracy does not fit.

 

[schaick]

Shaikh, nothing of that. The Communism was hatched amongst the christians.

Communism allowed no religion.

What You are talking?? The vatican tried to control governments even in foreign countries. We know that Pope used to interfere and exert his pressure on all western governments for a very long time. Pope did not allow King Henry the 8th to marry Ann Bolean. So the King of England revolted against the Roman catholic rule and adopted Protestant faith in England. So there was a new church of England by revolt against the Roman catholic rule.

Yes and in huge error. I am Christian not Catholic and do not necessarily agree with everything from the Vatican.

Keep hoping for the best. You will be judged by God and we will also be judged The God.

Yes! I have my saviour Jesus Christ helping me carry my load-sin.

You have Mohammad.

 

[trdchubi]

Quote:
Al-Quran 9:5,
"When the sacred months have passed, fight (an kill) the pagans (Polytheists) wherever you find them. Catch them and trap them and watch all of their paths. But if they they repent and and they perform prayers and pay the zakat (Poor money) then leave them alone. Surely Allah is most forgiving, Merciful."

Is it me or it just sounded like a vivid description of force submission, extortion and terrorism all mix together in one very “peaceful” verse.

 

[manualman]

1. It was not spread entirely by force. It was spread by its good principles.
   .
2. You see some defects in Islam which you have explained in next para. They are inherent defects. I hope you would do justice of same kind of investigation into the christian faith too.
3. Muhammad lead wars because he was forced into those wars by the pagans and Christians… He married more than one wife. That was no crime. Other prophets before him had multiple wives. You are judging Muhammad by your christian standard which is faulty.
   You have accused Muhammad of marrying an under age girl. That is false. You do not remember that all the other wives of Muhammad were either widows or over aged divorced ladies. Aisha, whom you say was under age, was about 16 years old when she was married to Muhammad.
4. If Muhammad was a caveman by todays standard, please judge your religious leaders after the disappearance of Jesus. They were also cavemen, hiding in caves for about 300 years. Their manuscripts (Scrolls) are being discovered nowadays. Could you please malign your cavemen too by the standard of todays advancements???
5. This is untrue. God did not incarnate into another body. That is a false doctrine of incarnation. Nobody, except Hindus will believe you. The Jews (your seniors) and Muslims (Your juniors) will not believe it at all. So you are at fault, i.e. the odd one out in this matter sandwiched in the middle.

.
6. You have no hand in any progress. You could not add and subtract with your Roman Catholic numerology. Try to add XVI to CIX. and let me know the answer please. I will not ask you to multiply anything with those your number system.
The present day progress was only possible when church stopped meddling with science. So the mathematicians and scientists were free to explore and investigate things. Otherwise, in the time of Galileo, the church was seriously punishing the investigators.

Hi planten, thanks for the dialogue. we obviously don’t agree, but that doesn’t mean we can’t have a friendly conversation. Thanks for holding up your end and I’m sorry if not everyone else stays civil. Talks about religious conviction tend to stir the soul and get blood pumping! A few thoughts on your response:

1. Agreed. I didn’t mean to say that Islam was spread solely by force. In much of the earliest expansion, the precepts of Islam were FAR superior to those in the predominating culture of Arabia at the time and people could see it and embraced it. Much like how christianity had such early appeal to those of broken and corrupt religions of the Romans and Greeks of the day.
2. There is much that is defective in the history of christianity. This cannot be denied. But the source of those defects is not Christ Jesus, it is the sinfulness of his human followers (i.e. me). I do not believe there is ANY defect in Jesus or what he taught. Muhammed, well, I see plenty of issues.
3. I judge Muhammed by my christian standards, yes. But I’m nobody. God will judge him for eternity. My judgement is only necessary for me to discern whether Muhammed’s ideas were from God or not. Prophets are merely men. Men inspired by God, but mere men nonetheless. Prophets of any age should not be set up as the standard of perfection because they aren’t. Moses and Abraham sinned, you agree they are prophets, right? But Islam insists that Muhammed is the ultimate example of human behavior. Why? This limits the influence of your religion to the limits of his personal moral imperfections. Unlike Islam, we do not revere prophets as perfect men. They are in SOME areas inspired leaders who made the world a better place by speaking Truth as inspired by God. This is why the mistakes and sins of christian leaders in history don’t disprove christianity. Only mistakes and sins on the part of JESUS could do that. Good thing there AREN’T any! Serious scholars of all stripes see the Aisha marriage for what it was. Only Madrassa type scholarship claims otherwise… Bottom line is Jesus is objectively flawless while Muhammed was merely a big step forward for his day and age.
4. I’m unsure of which specific leaders of christianity you wish me to criticise, but I’ll readily admit that they are LEGION. Popes, bishops and Doctors of the Church aren’t impeccable. They made mistakes, they missed opportunities and were at times personally unfaithful to Christ. But christianity isn’t about THEM, it is about Jesus. And sins, mistakes and all, the gospel of Jesus has been retained in spite of 2,000 years of human weakness.
5. Most of the Jews DID believe it. The people who called themselves Jews today are the descendants of the MINORITY of Jews who rejected the divine claims of Christ. Don’t take my word for it, look up historic Roman census materials 100 years before and after the time of Christ.
6. Arabic numerals and the decimal system were an enormous advance in human ability to work complex math. Much of it, mind you, was already developed in concept before Muhammed was in diapers (or whatever was used for nappies in those days). As for Galileo, do some objective homework instead of reading protestant christian polemics. Galileo only got in trouble when he attempted to draw theological conclusions from his work, not for the science aspect. The scientific method really has its roots in Greek philosophies. But it has been developed so much more fully in the christian parts of the world because we believe that God is a God of order, principle and reason rather than an entirely inscrutable being. This synthesis of theology and natural science is why christendom vastly outstripped the Islamic world in scientific progress in spite of the vast head start y’all had via the Arabic numbering system and the vast legacy of Greek scholars captured in the conquest of Byzantium. As I said earlier, one of the strengths of the early Islamic leaders was their capacity to recognize and adopt good practical ideas when they saw them! And yet where have all the scientific advances come from in the last 300 years? (admittedly both good and bad!) The bottome line is that there is no conflict between science and religion in christianity. There is when your God is “inscrutable.” The Islamic world had a HUGE scientific head start, what happened? The whole world economy is reliant on oil resouces largely held in Islamic parts of the world, but large portions of that population live in abject poverty while cholera and dissentery is all but wiped out in the West.

Count me unconviced of Muhammed’s claims.

 

[mark_a]

If Muslims had one calph- and they were united, we would be in deep trouble!

Here you seem glad that there is a lack of unity.

The main goal of Islam is to have Islam be supreme-one organized leader with every aspect of your life controlled by Islam- what you eat, how you dress, how and when you pray, even how you clean yourself after defecating! As non-muslims we would have very little rights, we would forced to live as dhimmis.

But here you speak of Islam as a single entity.

Today it could easily take over.

Islam is makeing quick work of Christian Europe as they contracept themselves into oblivion.

 

[planten]

Hi planten, thanks for the dialogue. we obviously don’t agree, but that doesn’t mean we can’t have a friendly conversation. Thanks for holding up your end and I’m sorry if not everyone else stays civil. Talks about religious conviction tend to stir the soul and get blood pumping! A few thoughts on your response:

1. Agreed. I didn’t mean to say that Islam was spread solely by force. In much of the earliest expansion, the precepts of Islam were FAR superior to those in the predominating culture of Arabia at the time …

What about the predominant culture of Roman and Persian empire?? You are hiding some facts.

1. There is much that is defective in the history of christianity. This cannot be denied. But the source of those defects is not Christ Jesus, it is the sinfulness of his human followers (i.e. me). I do not believe there is ANY defect in Jesus or what he taught. Muhammed, well, I see plenty of issues.

You see plenty of issues with Muhammad. We Muslims see plenty of issues with you and your church. It is all anti_Jesus church. You people are only using the name of Jesus.Otherwise youa re all anti-Jesus. You have got many other Lords beside God and beside Jesus.

1. I judge Muhammed by my christian standards, yes. But I’m nobody. God will judge him for eternity. My judgement is only necessary for me to discern whether Muhammed’s ideas were from God or not. Prophets are merely men. Men inspired by God, but mere men nonetheless

.
You are wrong. Prophets are perfect example for the mankind.

Prophets of any age should not be set up as the standard of perfection because they aren’t

Who taught you that. Youhave got a false theory of original sin. You believe that a new born baby is sinful. You believe that every one is born with sin. Who will believe you??

Moses and Abraham sinned. You believe that they are prophets??

I believe that Moses and abraham were prophets. I do not believe that they sinned. That is your false teaching from the church that you are trying to push on me. But you are wrong. You are trying to Judge Moses and Abraham. Who gave you the authority to do that? Did Jesus tell you that Moses sinned? Did Jesus tell you that Abraham sinned?? If so, then show me from the bibleNT. Otherwise you are trying to accuse the prophets.
.

But Islam insists that Muhammed is the ultimate example of human behavior. Why? This limits the influence of your religion to the limits of his personal moral imperfections.

There is no imperfection in Muhammad. You do not know Muhammad.

Unlike Islam, we do not revere prophets as perfect men.

That is your mistake. Do not judge. Specially do not judge the men of God i.e. prophets.

They are in SOME areas inspired leaders who made the world a better place by speaking Truth as inspired by God

They are not just inspired. They have sight and insight. They are close to God and they get Revelation. Inspiration is of lower degree than revealation.

.

This is why the mistakes and sins of christian leaders in history don’t disprove christianity. Only mistakes and sins on the part of JESUS could do that. Good thing there AREN’T any!

I know you would wish that only Jesus be sinless. All the others be damned. That proves your ill mind.

Serious scholars of all stripes see the Aisha marriage for what it was. Only Madrassa type scholarship claims otherwise… Bottom line is Jesus is objectively flawless while Muhammed was merely a big step forward for his day and age

.
Again you are lingering on the subject of Aisha. I reject all your words outright. If Muhammad was well advanced for men of his age then what was Jesus?? Did he do anything at all except some lecturing here and there. That only for three years and then disappeared for good, forever.
He was punished by his enemies. Only His God accepted his prayer and Jesus was saved from disgraceful (Cursed) death on the cross. What did you do?? You all accepted that jesus was cursed. Muslims did not do that.

 

[planten]

For Manualman, continued, part two…

1. I’m unsure of which specific leaders of christianity you wish me to criticise, but I’ll readily admit that they are LEGION. Popes, bishops and Doctors of the Church aren’t impeccable. They made mistakes, they missed opportunities and were at times personally unfaithful to Christ. But christianity isn’t about THEM, it is about Jesus. And sins, mistakes and all, the gospel of Jesus has been retained in spite of 2,000 years of human weakness.

I do not know what you are talking about. I have never seen the gospel of Jesus. Have you got it with you?? Then show us the gospel of Jesus. I have seen a biography of Jesus written by some men (mathew, Luke and Mark etc) long after Jesus disappeared.

1. Most of the Jews DID believe it. The people who called themselves Jews today are the descendants of the MINORITY of Jews who rejected the divine claims of Christ. Don’t take my word for it, look up historic Roman census materials 100 years before and after the time of Christ.

Perhaps. I am not interested in checking that.

1. Arabic numerals and the decimal system were an enormous advance in human ability to work complex math. Much of it, mind you, was already developed in concept before Muhammed was in diapers (or whatever was used for nappies in those days).

You are trying to deny the good work of the Arabs, the decimal system, the Algebra etc. i am not interested in anything you say.

As for Galileo, do some objective homework instead of reading protestant christian polemics. Galileo only got in trouble when he attempted to draw theological conclusions from his work, not for the science aspect. The scientific method really has its roots in Greek philosophies. But it has been developed so much more fully in the christian parts of the world

That is not right. The church punished Galileo for announcing the spots in the Sun. The Sun was so dear to the church that they could not tolerate it. So the church called Galileo and punished him, even making him blind. galileo begged for mercy but still was not forgiven. Manualman, please tell the truth about Galileo.

because we believe that God is a God of order, principle and reason rather than an entirely inscrutable being.

Please show the above from your book (bibleNT). Do not invent things yourself.

This synthesis of theology and natural science is why christendom vastly outstripped the Islamic world in scientific progress in spite of the vast head start y’all had via the Arabic numbering system and the vast legacy of Greek scholars captured in the conquest of Byzantium. As I said earlier, one of the strengths of the early Islamic leaders was their capacity to recognize and adopt good practical ideas when they saw them!

You seem to be upset about all the good things done by the Muslims in past ages. I cannot help you. I do not see anything done by the church in the advancement of Science. Every one has worked in science. The Jews, The Hindus, the atheists. But no christian ever did anything from the bible. I agree that science progressed very much when the church stopped fiddling with scientific matters.

And yet where have all the scientific advances come from in the last 300 years? (admittedly both good and bad!) The bottome line is that there is no conflict between science and religion in christianity

.
I ask youa gain to show me that there is no conflict between science and church teachings. Show me that from your book (bibleNT)

There is when your God is “inscrutable.” The Islamic world had a HUGE scientific head start, what happened? The whole world economy is reliant on oil resouces largely held in Islamic parts of the world, but large portions of that population live in abject poverty while cholera and dissentery is all but wiped out in the West.

I agree that Muslism are backward in present days. Admitted. But it was not so all the time. There was a time when the princes of your European countries used to come to Spain and take admission in Muslim Institutes. Europe was at that time in dark ages.

Count me unconviced of Muhammed’s claims.

Okay, thanks. There is no need to be convinced. I do not see you as a good judge of anything.

 

[dolphinlove]

What about the predominant culture of Roman and Persian empire?? You are hiding some facts.

This thread is about Muslims beginning to own up to violence, not Christian history.

You see plenty of issues with Muhammad. We Muslims see plenty of issues with you and your church. It is all anti_Jesus church. You people are only using the name of Jesus.Otherwise youa re all anti-Jesus. You have got many other Lords beside God and beside Jesus.

How can we be anti-Jesus when our church is based on Jesus and his teachings? Who are these other Lords you claim we have? your source planten…
.

You are wrong. Prophets are perfect example for the mankind.

The teachings that God instructed the prophets with is a good example for mankind, not the prophets themselves. In the bible, you know that book given to mankind by the real God, it shows us the sins, not the mistakes the prophets made.

Who taught you that. Youhave got a false theory of original sin. You believe that a new born baby is sinful. You believe that every one is born with sin. Who will believe you??

The bible taught us that prophets are sinners, just like all man except Jesus and Mary. And as for talking and trying to educate you on original sin, im not even going there, because you wont listen to me anyway.

I believe that Moses and abraham were prophets. I do not believe that they sinned. That is your false teaching from the church that you are trying to push on me. But you are wrong. You are trying to Judge Moses and Abraham. Who gave you the authority to do that? Did Jesus tell you that Moses sinned? Did Jesus tell you that Abraham sinned?? If so, then show me from the bibleNT. Otherwise you are trying to accuse the prophets.

Moses sin : Numbers 20:1 - 20:12
Abraham sin: Gen 12:11 - 20
need i say more?
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There is no imperfection in Muhammad. You do not know Muhammad.

He sure was a sinner, he is a false prophet to start with, and as we all know, the list will take me hours to type up.

That is your mistake. Do not judge. Specially do not judge the men of God i.e. prophets.

God is the one that judged his prophets, not us, the sins of the prophets are documented in the bible, it teaches us of their sins.

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I know you would wish that only Jesus be sinless. All the others be damned. That proves your ill mind.

IS a fact that everyone has sinned besides Jesus and Mary.

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Again you are lingering on the subject of Aisha. I reject all your words outright. If Muhammad was well advanced for men of his age then what was Jesus?? Did he do anything at all except some lecturing here and there. That only for three years and then disappeared for good, forever.
He was punished by his enemies. Only His God accepted his prayer and Jesus was saved from disgraceful (Cursed) death on the cross. What did you do?? You all accepted that jesus was cursed. Muslims did not do that.

You obviously no nothing of Jesus’ teachings if you claimed he only had given lectures ‘here and there’. And how long have you been coming here now, and you still no nothing of the reason why Jesus gave his life for us…
Have you learnt anything at all here planten?

 

[Mosacked]

dolphinlove,

again this thread has been hi-jacked because the muslims refuse to see facts that stare them in their faces. Now we are even hearing them talking about how UN-reliable their most authoritative hadiths (eg bukhari) are for recording that muhammad married an infant girl of 6 years old and had sex with her when she was just 9.

What is clear is the mess in islam is now exposed publicly.

Peaceful Or Violent, let the non-contextual Quran speak for itself.

Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and slaughter the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Qur’an:9:112 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”

Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”

Ishaq:325 “Muslims, fight in Allah’s Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious.”

Qur’an:8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”

Ishaq:324 “He said, ‘Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.’”

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com