D
drac16
Guest
Ah, I’m terribly sorry. I will edit that out. Please forgive me.I’m a NOT a “sir” I’m ------> :curtsey:
- Status
C
Catolico65
Guest
You are confused my friend. Unlike the false Muslim God that has no Son that authorizes Muslims to kill infidels we Christians have Jesus Christ, the only Son of the only God, who commands us to love even our enemies. I recommend you seek Jesus Christ the Messiah and reject the false prophet Mohamed who claimed Jesus was not the Son of God and who commands you to kill the innocent.
A
AspiringSoul
Guest
Hello my good friend. The God I choose to believe in is the God of Abraham
Make of Him what you will.The old testament is full of metaphorical terminology. Israel and Judah were the wives of God…for example…
no, I’m clearly wrong, it was more than that
Israel was
This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son” (Ex. 4:22)
but then you don’t really believe in the bible do you? i mean you say you do but you only believe in minute parts of the new testament, whatever fits your fanciful ideas…you pretend the rest doesn’t exist.
Son of God=a metaphorical term applying to the Logos.
To even think of it in literal terms makes you incredibly naive given what i’ve just pointed out.
Still, this is besides the point, it’s not what I wished to discuss.
People of your ilk are definitely hypocrites because you still believe in eternal damnation and the book of revelation makes it abundantly clear the worshipers of the beast (ie infidels) will be cast into the bottomless pit.
What will Jesus do to the false Prophet? forgive him?
What is it Jesus Christ said?
Matthew 13:40
Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age.
ps Prophet Mohammed SAW is the final Prophet of God. You don’t accept him but I don’t particularly respect the opinion of people who lack intelligence, i mean i’ve just spoonfed you parts of your own bible, you’re not a person who understands things clearly.
A
AspiringSoul
Guest
Why is it metaphorical when Israel is God’s ‘first born’ but completely literal when applied to Jesus?
simple…indoctrination…
simple…indoctrination…
A
AspiringSoul
Guest
i’m very upfront about my beliefs and haven’t concealed them at all.
The concept of Logos is metaphysical however the term ‘Son’ is metaphorical.
Metaphorical terms like wife, son, daughter, whether they’re applied to israel or Jesus symbolise God’s relationship and nearness.
There are parables, metaphors, similies throughout the bible. The term ‘lamb of God’ for example, obviously not literal. These terms all have significance within particular religious traditions. The jews sacrificed for their sins, therefore the term ‘lamb of God’ is obviously connected, part fhe tradition. Just as you have the term Bene Elohim (sons of God).
Yet i find christians rejecting ‘Allah’ the muslim God because ‘muslims do not believe in the Son of God’ but that’s precisely because the TERM ‘son of God’ was problematic for many people.
It’s different these days, in the educated world…you could perhaps educate people better and teach them what the Logos is. Yet, I bet if poor people in pakistan were given such concepts, ie ‘son of God’ on, they would take it absolutely literally…they would not be thinking of a deep metaphyical concept, they would not even know what the Logos is.
If that’s the case with the uneducated/simple people in a country like pakistan, in the 21st century, can you imagine it in the 6th/7th centuries?
there were very very few christians in Arab world and they were the well educated ones.
Also my previous posts were about violence in the book of Revelation, which is ignored by a lot of hypocritical christians. They attack islam as a violent religion but purposely ignore everything else in the bible.
The concept of Logos is metaphysical however the term ‘Son’ is metaphorical.
Metaphorical terms like wife, son, daughter, whether they’re applied to israel or Jesus symbolise God’s relationship and nearness.
There are parables, metaphors, similies throughout the bible. The term ‘lamb of God’ for example, obviously not literal. These terms all have significance within particular religious traditions. The jews sacrificed for their sins, therefore the term ‘lamb of God’ is obviously connected, part fhe tradition. Just as you have the term Bene Elohim (sons of God).
Yet i find christians rejecting ‘Allah’ the muslim God because ‘muslims do not believe in the Son of God’ but that’s precisely because the TERM ‘son of God’ was problematic for many people.
It’s different these days, in the educated world…you could perhaps educate people better and teach them what the Logos is. Yet, I bet if poor people in pakistan were given such concepts, ie ‘son of God’ on, they would take it absolutely literally…they would not be thinking of a deep metaphyical concept, they would not even know what the Logos is.
If that’s the case with the uneducated/simple people in a country like pakistan, in the 21st century, can you imagine it in the 6th/7th centuries?
there were very very few christians in Arab world and they were the well educated ones.
Also my previous posts were about violence in the book of Revelation, which is ignored by a lot of hypocritical christians. They attack islam as a violent religion but purposely ignore everything else in the bible.
C
Catolico65
Guest
I think some facts are in order.
- Jesus said “love your enemy” and has not authorized us to kill in God’s name. Certainly God chose the Jews to mete out His punishment at various times in the past but that was before the arrival of Christ.
- The Quran commands Muslims to kill the infidel and they happily oblige almost everyday.
- Mohammad rejected Jesus as the Christ, and as such is an atntichrist:
- Mohammed was a pedophile who tried to consummate his marriage with a 6 or 9 year old pre pubescent girl. This practice continues today.
- Islam has a severe problem with homosexuality, and it has become a de facto pastime of many Muslim men who are not even permitted to look at women. This I believe was predicted -
- Revelation as far as I know discusses the final judgment done at the hands of Christ and His angels, not by Christian mortals. This is the exact opposite of what is instructed by Mohammed.**
T
True_Faith50
Guest
We Muslim have not got another Christ! There is only one “Christ” and that is Jesus Christ. So, where do we get this idea from about Jesus and the Christ. We go to our book of authority the Holy Quran.
Jesus Christ is mentioned in the Quran 500% more time than Muhammad, some thing unimaginable, you can’t imagine a man goes and writes a book and he keeps himself out of it. He is promoting Jesus. 500% more time than himself. Does it make sense? Which writer, which biographer authority writer will do a thing like that.
No, this is not his work! if it is his work than naturally he would promote himself.
"Jesus" mentioned in the “Quran” 25 times and “Muhammad” mentioned in the “Quran” total 5 times.
You will get the shock of your life when I tell you this another mighty messenger of God “Hazrat Moosa”(Moses) they say the prophet of the Jews! how many times is he mentioned in this book? Anybody can guess?
136 time the holy prophet Moses is mentioned in the Quran.
And you people are thinking that we’re the “Anti-Christ” or “Anti-Jews” This book “Quran” is not Anti-Jews nor Anti-Christian.
To the Christians I said even if you want to fight a Muslim you need this book, read it because this book will tell you how Muslims are thinking so you can plan strategies if you know it.
Mary the mother of Jesus describing in the Quran as women choosen above the women of all nations and I’m saying that this high honour is not to be found even in the Christian bible. The protestant version or the Roman catholic version.
T
True_Faith50
Guest
Paul as well tells you **Book of “Revelation” is a dream **of John which he has put down on paper! and you read this “Book of Revelations” describing to you certain Beast with eyes outside and eyes inside which absolutely when you eating too much you start thinking in those terms.
But now I say your interpretations, your readings, you are reading your own scriptures something that is not there!
A
AspiringSoul
Guest
I think some facts are in order.
1 John 2 - Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also. *
- Jesus said “love your enemy” and has not authorized us to kill in God’s name. Certainly God chose the Jews to mete out His punishment at various times in the past but that was before the arrival of Christ.
- The Quran commands Muslims to kill the infidel and they happily oblige almost everyday.
- Mohammad rejected Jesus as the Christ, and as such is an atntichrist:
1 Timothy 4 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared, 3 who forbid marriage[a] and enjoin abstinence from foods** which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
- Mohammed was a pedophile who tried to consummate his marriage with a 6 or 9 year old pre pubescent girl. This practice continues today.
- Islam has a severe problem with homosexuality, and it has become a de facto pastime of many Muslim men who are not even permitted to look at women. This I believe was predicted -
- Revelation as far as I know discusses the final judgment done at the hands of Christ and His angels, not by Christian mortals. This is the exact opposite of what is instructed by Mohammed.**
Matthew 5:43
- Jesus preached love your enemy but in the context he was talking to the lost sheep of Israel, to jews, amongst themselves. He didn’t mean it in the wider context…
Love Your Enemies ] “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
ie he was addressing jews on matters pertaining to the Mosaic law.
He wasn’t talking to YOU.
Furthermore God chose the Israelites/Jews to hand out punishments but you say it’s no longer valid since Jesus Christ. Yet in 6) you say ‘Christ and His angels’ ??
what difference does it make? it’s still Violent punishment.
Islam has never taught muslims to aimlessly kill people because they don’t accept our religion. killing is only justified in direct war.
(5) Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah’s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.
( سورة محمد , Muhammad, Chapter #47, Verse #4)
(1) O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not “Trinity”: desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
- Islam obviously does teach us Jesus was the Christ/Messiah and Word of God, but what islam doesn’t do is ascribe any divinity to him personally.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #171)
The Hadiths of Al Bukhari tell us he consumated the marraige to Aisha when she was 9 which would certainly make him a pedophile. However I reject those hadiths on several counts
- Prophet Mohammed SAW was certainly not a pedophile.
-Aisha ha been accused of adultery by a large group of muslims whilst Prophet Mohammed was alive.
-The Quran defended her calling her a ‘chaste woman’
-After Mohammed passed away the Caliphate went to Abu Bakr (the father of Aisha) at which point…a group of people who loved Ali rebelled against Abu Bakr.
do you even know who abu bakr or ali are? you don’t, so what business do you have accusing Mohammed of a crime when you don’t even know the political and sectarian connections with this hadith?
i’ll continue
Ali’s supporters hated Abu Bakr and his daughter.
So they continued calling her an adulteress…not just an adulteress but a kafir (a disbeliever)
still happening today
youtube.com/watch?v=66tXtkBxxcU
things reached a saturation point and in the end you had 2 sects, sunni and shia. The Sunni caliphate persecuted the shias and endorced hadith in support of Aisha…
what was the best way (in their time) to defend the ‘honour’ of Aisha?
easy
say she was only 9 years old when her marraige was consumated, thus giving her a ‘pure’ status in the minds of muslims, putting an end to accusations against her and her father.
In reality it is a FACT aisha had been Accused of adultery in the early days of her marraige.
do you even know the story surrounding those accusations? if aisha was 9 years old for real that story wouldn’t even exist, it’s because she was older, travelling…and was accused of sleeping with another man whilst travelling.
Homosexuality is something which exists everywhere, not just the muslim world. It’s a bigger problem in the 21st century however. That’s because people are living in a state of passion and not spiritual purity…and why is that? what dominates our minds?
music
movies
all stemming from the ‘christian’ lands.
You’re a true hypocrite though since you accuse islam of things that are clearly a problem in your own religion, in fact they’re a bigger problem in your religion.
C
Catolico65
Guest
It is true what is written:
21 for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools
21 for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools
A
AspiringSoul
Guest
yeh but it goes on
and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
http://davao.catholicfaithdefenders.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/jesus-holding-earth1.jpg
A
AspiringSoul
Guest
yeh but it’s okay for someone to attack islam?
hypocrites./
hypocrites./
D
dronald
Guest
Everyone needs to relax for one. Secondly, our Muslim friend may not be sure how forums work in that a thread about “Jesus being the Messiah” isn’t about Him being God, a Trinity, etc, etc.
I know Christians here get sick of repeating themselves but it has to be done.
I know Christians here get sick of repeating themselves but it has to be done.
A
AspiringSoul
Guest
I’m sorry but if you look back this begins when someone attacks my religion.
I’m not seeking to offend anyone but if i deem someone to be a hypocrite, that is no way a reflection of my views on Christianity. It means the person in question has a false understanding.
I was using his own line of thinking against him.
These type of people are literalists who take texts at face value without comprehending their deeper meaning. They attack islam by the same principles but when their perspective is used against them, they’re left exposed.
I have nothing but love for Christianity, you don’t even know. I’ve explained already how the the Sleepers of the Cave are mentioned in the Quran.
God has told us He inspired the Disciples of Jesus.
God has told us He was with the Sleepers of the Cave (the seven sleepers).
God also tells us there are many ‘humble’ christians.
Yet Jude 1 clearly tells us there are ‘scoffers’ amongst the Christians, these are the kind I despise because they assume the role of Christians but they do not even truely grasp the essence of Christianity. They use it as a tool.
No doubt there are many many muslims like this aswell and obviously they are exposed within our own texts as ‘munafiqs’. Jesus also exposed the same type of people as ‘hypocrites’
munafiq means hypocrite.
I’m not seeking to offend anyone but if i deem someone to be a hypocrite, that is no way a reflection of my views on Christianity. It means the person in question has a false understanding.
I was using his own line of thinking against him.
These type of people are literalists who take texts at face value without comprehending their deeper meaning. They attack islam by the same principles but when their perspective is used against them, they’re left exposed.
I have nothing but love for Christianity, you don’t even know. I’ve explained already how the the Sleepers of the Cave are mentioned in the Quran.
God has told us He inspired the Disciples of Jesus.
God has told us He was with the Sleepers of the Cave (the seven sleepers).
God also tells us there are many ‘humble’ christians.
Yet Jude 1 clearly tells us there are ‘scoffers’ amongst the Christians, these are the kind I despise because they assume the role of Christians but they do not even truely grasp the essence of Christianity. They use it as a tool.
No doubt there are many many muslims like this aswell and obviously they are exposed within our own texts as ‘munafiqs’. Jesus also exposed the same type of people as ‘hypocrites’
munafiq means hypocrite.
C
Catolico65
Guest
To my Christian friends, do not be dismayed by severely indoctrinated Muslims because for every one of them there are many more ripe for the pickings.
I have an Iranian friend who I have helped lead away from the anti Christ. Here is my advice.
I have an Iranian friend who I have helped lead away from the anti Christ. Here is my advice.
- Speak about the love of Christ and the Gospel and it’s message of peace and distinguish between acts done by Christians and those authorized by the church.
- Address the issue of salvation of the family and friends of the person and make it clear that Christ died for them as well so just because they hadn’t had a chance to receive the Gospel there is much hope for them if they reject violence and love their fellow man.
- Take advantage of the major weakness of the Quran, such as it claims Jesus is not the Son of God, promotes violence against innocents and promotes a god who does wrong to help show the person that this religion is false. Not too worry many Muslims see these issues and the violence and have many questions.
- Realize that most Muslims have been indoctrinated since birth to believe that no one but them can get to heaven with threat of violence to those who would leave the “faith” so even if they don’t appear to respond to reason over time that can change.
T
True_Faith50
Guest
I know this thread is about Islam but if any Christian brother or sister quote verses from the Bible which he don’t even know what he is talking about than it is my duty to correct him.
I said again, Paul tells you Book of “Revelation” is a dream of John which he has put down on paper!
For argument sake in his dream if we put these words in the mouth of Jesus that if he says “I’m not the son of Mary.” will this statement counts to you? Offcourse NOT!
I said again, Paul tells you Book of “Revelation” is a dream of John which he has put down on paper!
For argument sake in his dream if we put these words in the mouth of Jesus that if he says “I’m not the son of Mary.” will this statement counts to you? Offcourse NOT!
A
AspiringSoul
Guest
True_Faith50 From a muslim to another muslim I have to say this. Most muslims who study the bible, misquote it…and they even misquote the Quran concerning it.
The Quran fully endorses and confirms the authenticity of the Injeel. Yet most muslims claim there is a ‘true injeel that was given to Jesus and then there are the false gospels the christians have’. This is troubling because the Quran confirmed the existing gospels in the time of Prophet Mohammed SAW as valid and true.
Let’s look at examples
The Quran accepting the Gospels in the present tense (validating their authenticity and truth)
*(5) Let the people of the gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
*
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #47)
*(7) Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #68)*
If, according to the common modern muslim argument ‘the true Gospel is missing’ then how could Allah tell the Christians (and the Jews)
Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord
Meanwhile the Christians attack Prophet Mohammad SAW whilst muslims cannot attack Jesus AS so they choose the next person, Paul…and attack him or misquote his words.
Going by my earlier point, the Quran fully confirms the existing Gospels the Christians have in their possession…
what else?
The Quran tells us this, about the disciples of Jesus
*(2) “And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger: they said, ‘We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah as Muslims’”.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #111)
*
In otherwords the disciples were Inspired by God…and this is no small matter.
Yet i’ve found many so called ‘educated’ muslims who will casually just say
‘yeh, peter, he was decieved by Satan’
A direct attack against the Quran, clearly…and yet they call themselves muslims.
Then you look at the gospels and Jesus says this about Peter
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." - Matt. 16:16-18
Since it’s clearly proven Peter was not deceived but was Inspired by God, chosen by Jesus Christ…etc
Let’s look at what Peter says about Paul
*2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
*
major hint right there and that’s why it offends me greatly when i find any muslim attack Paul.
I know you didn’t do this here, i don’t know what you believe in Paul but from some of your posts I can see your views of christianity are very consistent with the modern propaganda machine…it’s the salafists who have endorsed these false views, funded them and ensured muslims remain ignorant of the truth.
Then we reach the following verse
*(1) That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)*
^^
this is the Yusuf Ali translation
let’s look at another translation
Mohsin Khan
*(1) And because of their saying (in boast), “We killed Messiah 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah,” - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them [the resemblance of 'Îsa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)], and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not *:
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)*
notice the part i’ve highlighted? this was doctored in, added…and you think this here isn’t a concentrated, purposeful distortion of the truth?
having no consistency at all with the Gospels which the Quran has already confirmed, a false view, a direct attack
how many muslims have ever noticed this btw?*
The Quran fully endorses and confirms the authenticity of the Injeel. Yet most muslims claim there is a ‘true injeel that was given to Jesus and then there are the false gospels the christians have’. This is troubling because the Quran confirmed the existing gospels in the time of Prophet Mohammed SAW as valid and true.
Let’s look at examples
The Quran accepting the Gospels in the present tense (validating their authenticity and truth)
*(5) Let the people of the gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
*
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #47)
*(7) Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #68)*
If, according to the common modern muslim argument ‘the true Gospel is missing’ then how could Allah tell the Christians (and the Jews)
Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord
Meanwhile the Christians attack Prophet Mohammad SAW whilst muslims cannot attack Jesus AS so they choose the next person, Paul…and attack him or misquote his words.
Going by my earlier point, the Quran fully confirms the existing Gospels the Christians have in their possession…
what else?
The Quran tells us this, about the disciples of Jesus
*(2) “And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger: they said, ‘We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah as Muslims’”.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #111)
*
In otherwords the disciples were Inspired by God…and this is no small matter.
Yet i’ve found many so called ‘educated’ muslims who will casually just say
‘yeh, peter, he was decieved by Satan’
A direct attack against the Quran, clearly…and yet they call themselves muslims.
Then you look at the gospels and Jesus says this about Peter
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." - Matt. 16:16-18
Since it’s clearly proven Peter was not deceived but was Inspired by God, chosen by Jesus Christ…etc
Let’s look at what Peter says about Paul
*2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
*
major hint right there and that’s why it offends me greatly when i find any muslim attack Paul.
I know you didn’t do this here, i don’t know what you believe in Paul but from some of your posts I can see your views of christianity are very consistent with the modern propaganda machine…it’s the salafists who have endorsed these false views, funded them and ensured muslims remain ignorant of the truth.
Then we reach the following verse
*(1) That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)*
^^
this is the Yusuf Ali translation
let’s look at another translation
Mohsin Khan
*(1) And because of their saying (in boast), “We killed Messiah 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah,” - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them [the resemblance of 'Îsa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)], and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not *:
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)*
notice the part i’ve highlighted? this was doctored in, added…and you think this here isn’t a concentrated, purposeful distortion of the truth?
having no consistency at all with the Gospels which the Quran has already confirmed, a false view, a direct attack
how many muslims have ever noticed this btw?*
A
AspiringSoul
Guest
Now the verse in question, let’s look at it again
*(1) That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)
*
what do you think this refers to?
on the surface it’s telling us Jesus was not killed or crucified.
but so it was made to appear to* them***
who are they?
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary
jews? romans?
if we say ‘jews’ that is also a distortion of the truth because many Jews, if not most did believe in Jesus when they saw him, but it was a particular sect who wanted him crucified
The Sadducees/
the sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, hence they didn’t believe in life after death, they believed all people ,good or evil, go to the grave.
These people thought they’ve killed/crucified Jesus, but so it was made to appear to them, ie they thought, having seen with their 2 eyes, Jesus Christ crucified.
He was resurrected…the very thing they disbelieved in.
This is a more accurate interpretation of the Quranic verse.
How many muslims would accept it?
not many, because most muslims these days take the most literal interpretation without understanding it deeper. They’ve never read the Bible so they do not know who the sadducees were.
Here is a prophecy, about the sadducees and Jesus.
Wisdom chapter 2
3 extinguish this and the body turns to ashes, and the spirit melts away like the yielding air.
4 In time, our name will be forgotten, nobody will remember what we have done; our life will pass away like wisps of cloud, dissolving like the mist that the sun’s rays drive away and that its heat dispels.
5 For our days are the passing of a shadow, our end is without return, the seal is affixed and nobody comes back.
6 'Come then, let us enjoy the good things of today, let us use created things with the zest of youth:
7 take our fill of the dearest wines and perfumes, on no account forgo the flowers of spring
8 but crown ourselves with rosebuds before they wither,
9 no meadow excluded from our orgy; let us leave the signs of our revelry everywhere, since this is our portion, this our lot!
10 'As for the upright man who is poor, let us oppress him; let us not spare the widow, nor respect old age, white-haired with many years.
11 Let our might be the yardstick of right, since weakness argues its own futility.
12 Let us lay traps for the upright man, since he annoys us and opposes our way of life, reproaches us for our sins against the Law, and accuses us of sins against our upbringing.
13 He claims to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord.
14 We see him as a reproof to our way of thinking, the very sight of him weighs our spirits down;
15 for his kind of life is not like other people’s, and his ways are quite different.
16 In his opinion we are counterfeit; he avoids our ways as he would filth; he proclaims the final end of the upright as blessed and boasts of having God for his father.
17 Let us see if what he says is true, and test him to see what sort of end he will have.
18 For if the upright man is God’s son, God will help him and rescue him from the clutches of his enemies.
19 Let us test him with cruelty and with torture, and thus explore this gentleness of his and put his patience to the test.
20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death since God will rescue him – or so he claims.’
21 This is the way they reason, but they are misled, since their malice makes them blind.
22 They do not know the hidden things of God, they do not hope for the reward of holiness, they do not believe in a reward for blameless souls.
23 For God created human beings to be immortal, he made them as an image of his own nature;
24 Death came into the world only through the Devil’s envy, as those who belong to him find to their cost.*
*Chapter 3
1 But the souls of the upright are in the hands of God, and no torment can touch them.
2 To the unenlightened, they appeared to die, their departure was regarded as disaster,
3 their leaving us like annihilation; but they are at peace.
4 If, as it seemed to us, they suffered punishment, their hope was rich with immortality;
5 slight was their correction, great will their blessings be. God was putting them to the test and has proved them worthy to be with him;
6 he has tested them like gold in a furnace, and accepted them as a perfect burnt offering.
**7 At their time of visitation, they will shine out; as sparks run through the stubble, so will they.
8 They will judge nations, rule over peoples, and the Lord will be their king for ever.**
*
Basically Wisdom 2&3 are like an explanation of the Quranic verse concerning the crucifixion
how many muslims even know about this text?
For that matter, most christians i have spoken to about this, they reject Wisdom, saying it’s ‘a false book’.
there’s just too many people causing problems when the truth is so clear.
*(1) That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)
*
what do you think this refers to?
on the surface it’s telling us Jesus was not killed or crucified.
but so it was made to appear to* them***
who are they?
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary
jews? romans?
if we say ‘jews’ that is also a distortion of the truth because many Jews, if not most did believe in Jesus when they saw him, but it was a particular sect who wanted him crucified
The Sadducees/
the sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, hence they didn’t believe in life after death, they believed all people ,good or evil, go to the grave.
These people thought they’ve killed/crucified Jesus, but so it was made to appear to them, ie they thought, having seen with their 2 eyes, Jesus Christ crucified.
He was resurrected…the very thing they disbelieved in.
This is a more accurate interpretation of the Quranic verse.
How many muslims would accept it?
not many, because most muslims these days take the most literal interpretation without understanding it deeper. They’ve never read the Bible so they do not know who the sadducees were.
Here is a prophecy, about the sadducees and Jesus.
Wisdom chapter 2
- And this is the false argument they use, 'Our life is short and dreary, there is no remedy when our end comes, no one is known to have come back from Hades.
3 extinguish this and the body turns to ashes, and the spirit melts away like the yielding air.
4 In time, our name will be forgotten, nobody will remember what we have done; our life will pass away like wisps of cloud, dissolving like the mist that the sun’s rays drive away and that its heat dispels.
5 For our days are the passing of a shadow, our end is without return, the seal is affixed and nobody comes back.
6 'Come then, let us enjoy the good things of today, let us use created things with the zest of youth:
7 take our fill of the dearest wines and perfumes, on no account forgo the flowers of spring
8 but crown ourselves with rosebuds before they wither,
9 no meadow excluded from our orgy; let us leave the signs of our revelry everywhere, since this is our portion, this our lot!
10 'As for the upright man who is poor, let us oppress him; let us not spare the widow, nor respect old age, white-haired with many years.
11 Let our might be the yardstick of right, since weakness argues its own futility.
12 Let us lay traps for the upright man, since he annoys us and opposes our way of life, reproaches us for our sins against the Law, and accuses us of sins against our upbringing.
13 He claims to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord.
14 We see him as a reproof to our way of thinking, the very sight of him weighs our spirits down;
15 for his kind of life is not like other people’s, and his ways are quite different.
16 In his opinion we are counterfeit; he avoids our ways as he would filth; he proclaims the final end of the upright as blessed and boasts of having God for his father.
17 Let us see if what he says is true, and test him to see what sort of end he will have.
18 For if the upright man is God’s son, God will help him and rescue him from the clutches of his enemies.
19 Let us test him with cruelty and with torture, and thus explore this gentleness of his and put his patience to the test.
20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death since God will rescue him – or so he claims.’
21 This is the way they reason, but they are misled, since their malice makes them blind.
22 They do not know the hidden things of God, they do not hope for the reward of holiness, they do not believe in a reward for blameless souls.
23 For God created human beings to be immortal, he made them as an image of his own nature;
24 Death came into the world only through the Devil’s envy, as those who belong to him find to their cost.*
*Chapter 3
1 But the souls of the upright are in the hands of God, and no torment can touch them.
2 To the unenlightened, they appeared to die, their departure was regarded as disaster,
3 their leaving us like annihilation; but they are at peace.
4 If, as it seemed to us, they suffered punishment, their hope was rich with immortality;
5 slight was their correction, great will their blessings be. God was putting them to the test and has proved them worthy to be with him;
6 he has tested them like gold in a furnace, and accepted them as a perfect burnt offering.
**7 At their time of visitation, they will shine out; as sparks run through the stubble, so will they.
8 They will judge nations, rule over peoples, and the Lord will be their king for ever.**
*
Basically Wisdom 2&3 are like an explanation of the Quranic verse concerning the crucifixion
how many muslims even know about this text?
For that matter, most christians i have spoken to about this, they reject Wisdom, saying it’s ‘a false book’.
there’s just too many people causing problems when the truth is so clear.
- Status