Muslims, can non-muslims trust muslims to be their friends?

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I would welcome explainations on how there can be trust between islam and other faiths if the koran is followed by muslims. What is the muslim definition of “under pressure”? Is it when islam does not reign supreme in the world? What is the muslim definition of self defense? I hear arguments that Hamas and Hezb. are waging war in self defense. Is anything that is not islam AGAINST islam and warrents a self defensive (i.e. violent) action. I would welcome anyone’s (muslim or non) explaination of these things.

"3:28 of the koran warns believers (muslims) not to take unbelievers as “friends or helpers” (َأَوْلِيَا — a word that means more than casual friendship, but something like alliance), “unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them.” This is a foundation of the idea that believers may legitimately deceive unbelievers when under pressure. The word used for “guard” in the Arabic is tuqātan (تُقَاةً), the verbal noun from taqiyyatan — hence the increasingly familiar term taqiyya. Ibn Kathir says that the phrase Pickthall renders as “unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them” means that “believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers” may “show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda’ said, ‘We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.’ Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, ‘The Tuqyah [taqiyya] is allowed until the Day of Resurrection.” While many Muslim spokesmen today maintain that taqiyya is solely a Shi’ite doctrine, shunned by Sunnis, the great Islamic scholar Ignaz Goldziher points out that while it was formulated by Shi’ites, “it is accepted as legitimate by other Muslims as well, on the authority of Qur’an 3:28.” The Sunnis of Al-Qaeda practice it today."

(from hotair.com/archives/2007/07/22/blogging-the-qur%e2%80%99an-sura-3-%e2%80%9cthe-family-of-imran%e2%80%9d-verses-1-32/))

3 translations of Sura 3 verse 28 of the Koran referenced above:
003.028
YUSUFALI: Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.
PICKTHAL: Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.
SHAKIR: Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
 
To piggy-back the OP; can this verse be understood in any way other than a call to war that is still valid with respect to Islam and Muslims?
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimoon (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #193)
What is the criteria for “But if they cease…”?
 
The silence is deafning. Come on muslims, here is your chance to educate us non-believers.👍
 
bump…

yes this subject caught my eye, will be interested in the responses…
 
I would welcome explainations on how there can be trust between islam and other faiths if the koran is followed by muslims. What is the muslim definition of “under pressure”? Is it when islam does not reign supreme in the world? What is the muslim definition of self defense? I hear arguments that Hamas and Hezb. are waging war in self defense. Is anything that is not islam AGAINST islam and warrents a self defensive (i.e. violent) action. I would welcome anyone’s (muslim or non) explaination of these things.
I’m not a Muslim, but I can give you an answer. Technically, Jews and Christians can be considered believers because we are monotheists and profess Abrahamic faith. That is why it is Islamically lawful for my husband to be married to me.

So legalistically a Muslim can be a true friend or spouse to another "Person of the Book, " just not a pagan. Pagans and atheists are definitely disbelievers. Jews and Christians are only disbelievers if the individual Muslim determines they are.:rolleyes:

But to actually trust a practicing Muslim you better know your Islamic law, and know where the Muslim stands on that law. That way you can anticipate their limitations and avoid conflicts.

Like for example, I understand that no matter what I do, I cannot commit adultery, because if I do then my husband and his Muslim friends will have to either kill me or risk eternal damnation, according to his faith. Remember their faith is not as merciful and forgiving as Christianity.

Or let’s say you are talking about religion with your Muslim friend. A Muslim is allowed to lie to you to try to convert you, and if you know this, you won’t get mad when you found out they lied to you about Islam.
 
But to actually trust a practicing Muslim you better know your Islamic law, and know where the Muslim stands on that law. That way you can anticipate their limitations and avoid conflicts.
Any reading suggestions which would be helpful for Catholics to educate themselves on this topic?
 
Any reading suggestions which would be helpful for Catholics to educate themselves on this topic?
The Status of Non-Muslims Under Muslim Rule

domini.org/openbook/umar.htm

In the ME these rules were largely in effect until about 1850 under Islamic rule and then the Colonial powers interupted it. Such civil/religious law is a hard thing to change in a society (look at white America and blacks).

The Koran and hadith also are pretty clear about how Muslims treat non-Muslims.

Read the Sharia Law which is derived from the Qur’an and hadith.

Muslims in the West are not the majority of society so many will dismiss Sharia and dhimmitude as “as strict” as all that stuff says, but…look at Saudi Arabia’s constitution. They are home to Islams most holy sites.

Read how the UIDHR and UDHR are different.
 
“I’m not a Muslim, but I can give you an answer. Technically, Jews and Christians can be considered believers because we are monotheists and profess Abrahamic faith. That is why it is Islamically lawful for my husband to be married to me.”
But it is not lawful for a muslim woman to marry a non-muslim man.

“Like for example, I understand that no matter what I do, I cannot commit adultery, because if I do then my husband and his Muslim friends will have to either kill me or risk eternal damnation, according to his faith. Remember their faith is not as merciful and forgiving as Christianity.”
“merciful and forgiving”? Got that right. Sounds like a death cult and evil to me.

“Or let’s say you are talking about religion with your Muslim friend. A Muslim is allowed to lie to you to try to convert you, and if you know this, you won’t get mad when you found out they lied to you about Islam.”
I think someone who would lie to me would not be my friend in the 1st place. I think your answer to the OP is that no, it is not possible for muslims and non-muslims to be friends because the muslim can never be trusted since they have a “divine” manadate to deceive us non-muslims to further islam.

Thanks for your post. It was very enlightning and I will pray for your husband. :crossrc:
 
I think someone who would lie to me would not be my friend in the 1st place. I think your answer to the OP is that no, it is not possible for muslims and non-muslims to be friends because the muslim can never be trusted since they have a “divine” manadate to deceive us non-muslims to further islam.

Thanks for your post. It was very enlightning and I will pray for your husband. :crossrc:
They don’t have to lie and some don’t, it’s just not prohibited to use deception or hide things to convert people. Even if you can’t trust them to not try to convert you by deception, most of them don’t want to hurt you or cause problems for you.

Anyways, we can’t expect the Muslims to convert unless we befriend them. Unless we show them what Christ is really about, they will just believe the Islamic lies about Christianity. And they need Christian friends if they convert, because their Islamic family and friends will either abandon them or try to kill them.

Yeah, it does hurt when someone you care about does or says something deliberately unloving because of their religion. But it also gives you the opportunity to show them the error of their ways and illustrate God’s forgiveness by how you handle the situation.

I think Muslims might be incapable of loving perfectly, but they still love the best that they can, and are capable of caring for a non-Muslim. In these friendships you have to be to the Muslim what Jesus is to you and I.

Thank you for praying for my husband. He was a confirmed Catholic, but apostated. I am confident that God loves him and will do everything in His power to guide him to the Truth.

If he goes to Hell I know it will be his own fault, not out of ignorance or because of a mistake. I have plenty of hope for his conversion though, because as time passes he becomes more Christ-like and less Muhammad-like. 🙂
 
Any reading suggestions which would be helpful for Catholics to educate themselves on this topic?
Get a Qur’an with extensive footnotes and a decent index. The footnotes will explain who the Qur’an is referring to when it seems vague (i.e. those who have gone astray= Christians) A good index will help you quickly study subjects of interest (like slavery, or idolatry, or whatever).

Muslims aren’t required to follow everything in the Hadiths, since they are not “protected” like the Qur’an, so I would skip that if I was just beginning and pick up a book about Islamic beliefs and practices written by a Muslim. They are all pretty similar, but here is a title: The Lawful and the Prohibited in Islam. By Yusuf Al-Qaradawi. It’s a good primer which just describes rules for daily life and family for Muslims.

Also pay attention to the news and read some of the recent books on Islam and the Middle East, especially those written by people who are from the Middle East, and those by women married to Muslims.

Islamic stories won’t give you very much historical or religious information, but they give you insight into the culture, what they think is funny or admirable, what they look down on. The adult translations of Arabian Nights show a lot about the Islamic mindset that is still apparent today.

You have to read things from lots of sources to really understand. The Qur’an is obviously not from God, and Islam is a dangerous ideology. But most Muslims appear to be okay people who spiritually stunted because of the limitations of their religion.
 
I would say yes, with a qulification. I have several Muslam friends. One of them I meet at my favorite pub about once every 2 weeks. The ones we can trust as friends, in my personal experence are the ones that are the equal of back-slidden Baptists of fallen away Catholics.
 
For all my muslim friends out there, here are some quotes from the noble koran that you can research and help you answer my original post. God bless!

“Yea, to those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers: is it honour they seek among them? Nay, all honour is with Allah.” (Qur’an 4:139)

“O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?” (Qur’an 4:144)

“O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.” (Qur’an 5:51)

“Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.” (Qur’an 3:28)
 
I would say yes, with a qulification. I have several Muslam friends. One of them I meet at my favorite pub about once every 2 weeks. The ones we can trust as friends, in my personal experence are the ones that are the equal of back-slidden Baptists of fallen away Catholics.
Heh. If he’s meeting you at the pub, he’s probably not that good a Muslim in the first place.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight
 
Get a Qur’an with extensive footnotes and a decent index. The footnotes will explain who the Qur’an is referring to when it seems vague (i.e. those who have gone astray= Christians) A good index will help you quickly study subjects of interest (like slavery, or idolatry, or whatever).
Also check out Blogging the Koran. Robert Spencer is going through the koran sura by sura discussing what islamic scholars, ancient and modern, have said about the text. Throughout the blog there are links to multiple side by side translations so you can read the verse he is refering to.

jihadwatch.org/articles/bloggingtheq.php
 
Mmm…seems to me the hard part is can Muslims trust non-Muslims to be their friends?

Trust is no easy thing, and as a nontheist, I know very well what it is to be on the wrong end of public approval, and even friendship.
 
Ack, again I mixed our accounts up. The above was my post, pardon me.
 
“O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.” (Qur’an 5:51)
A muslim will tell you that the Jews and Christians are not referred to unconditionally in this verse. It means the Jews and Christians that oppress you or fight with you. Because if it didn’t it would contradict other verses, and that would be a problem. :rolleyes:

They can be friends with “People of the Book,” and they can’t be friends with pagans.
 
Muslims aren’t required to follow everything in the Hadiths, since they are not “protected” like the Qur’an, so I would skip that if I was just beginning and pick up a book about Islamic beliefs and practices written by a Muslim. They are all pretty similar, but here is a title: The Lawful and the Prohibited in Islam. By Yusuf Al-Qaradawi. It’s a good primer which just describes rules for daily life and family for Muslims.
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So the Hadiths are not authoritarian?

And when you say it is not required to follow everything in the Hadiths; does that mean that the more strict and violent teachings/traditions are contrary to what is taught in the Koran?
 
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