Muslims: Can We Blame Them for Jihad?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sacramentalist
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

Sacramentalist

Guest
Gang:

I was thinking about this recently . . .

As Catholic Christians, there is, on our part, no denying that God can order us to kill innocent human beings, and that we are obliged to carry out these orders if and when they are given to us. The Old Testament is filled with examples of this.

Now, flash forward to the Holy Father’s infamous Regensburg address, where he quoted a Byzantine emperor as follows:
Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached. . . . God is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably is contrary to God’s nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats . . . To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death . . .
Click to expand...
Now, I don’t believe, as a matter of history, that God actually did command Muhammad to spread the true religion by the sword. (Orthodox Islam teaches that God did so command, but I believe Muhammad was delusional, or just wicked.)

However, what if Muslims are right to believe as they do? Is this belief really irrational? Isn’t it theoretically possible that God could command his followers to so spread the true religion, and if He did so, doesn’t God have every right to, since He is soverign over life and death?

I don’t know the answer to this question, and am not so sure that the Byzantine emperor’s criticism of Islam could not apply just as equally to the Judeao-Christian belief that God has, throughout the course of history, commanded His followers to put to the death innocent men, women, and children after having laid seige to several cities (cf. the Old Testament).

Thoughts?
 
allah means many moon gods Cain is first person to have dream of many moon gods he killed his own brother they worship the devil who comes to steal kill and destroy thier mahadi which they are waiting on to lead them to world domination is supposed to do all things anti christ is going to do
 
It all comes down to the Incarnation. If God “ordered” you to kill someone innocent to spread the Faith, He would be contradicting Himself many times. Love your neighbor, Ten Commandments, forgiveness, etc. It seems He may allow some of this to happen and use it for a greater good, but for Him to order someone to kill someone else would also violate free will. Just some thoughts…
 
Violent conversion is the antithesis of the message of Jesus Christ.
 
There is a christian and an Islam definition of Martyr

Christian… To die for your faith and forgive the executioner in Christs Love, you offer up your death rather than denouncing your faith.

Islam… Murderer and Suicidist… Both Sins in True Islam… Reason… to arrive in Heaven to receive 7 virgins dying for your faith.

Jihad is possible only for the twisted definition of Martydom
 
No one is answering my question.

Do people know how to read on this forum?

There are several instances in the Old Testament where God orders the killing of innocent men, women, and children, and punishes those who will not carry out these killings.

And so can we blame Muslims for killing people who won’t convert to Islam, since they believe God has told them to do so?

Isn’t it hypothetically possible that God could so command someone to spread the faith by violent means? And wouldn’t we be obliged to do so if He commanded it?
 
Religious violence has complex roots, and yes, the scriptures of Christianity have been used to justify violence in the past, as now Muslims (or some Muslims) use the Qu’ran to justify violent acts. However, this does not mean the Bible or interpreting it automatically leads to violence, as the CC’s emphasis on the dignity of the person which is inviolable against all forms of violence (save just self-defence) demonstrates, a sacred text or traditon can be used to endorse non-violence and the call to protect life in all of its forms. A comparison could be given to Buddhism, which teaches violence is basically not just a mortal sin (in the sense you will go to the Buddhist equivalent of hell) when done against human life, but also against animal life as well.

Generally a closer analysis shows there are several causal factors and motives for religious violence in various ages. A common one is the struggle for political power; events from the Crusades to the Inquisitions come down a great deal to questions about political power and temporal power and control of society, and what role religious authority plays in human society and governance. Another is social justice and the distribution of wealth, and another is the question of how a sacred text is interpreted, applied, and preached in a certain cultural and social context. The text of the Bible and the Qu’ran has not changed in content, but how they have been preached and applied has changed a great deal across the ages.

Perhaps rather than asking who is to blame it is better to ask more questions as to why Islam seems to endorse various forms of political violence to achieve religious or political ends now, while Christianity, which did use violence in the past to achieve religious, social or political ends, does not do so now. Catholics do not become suicide bombers to stop abortion, but Muslims become suicide bombers to fight what they see as vice. One should ask why different religions use different means to achieve their vision, and why some resort to violence and others do not.
 
Sacramentalist said:
As Catholic Christians, there is, on our part, no denying that God can order us to kill innocent human beings, and that we are obliged to carry out these orders if and when they are given to us. The Old Testament is filled with examples of this.
Click to expand...
Assuming your premise as valid, that was the Old Testament Scriptures. There is no method today to validate a divine revelation that we are supposedly ordered by God to kill. And if there were, it would be within the true religion of Christianity, not false religions such as Islam.
However, what if Muslims are right to believe as they do?
Click to expand...
Then we Catholics, and all of Christendom, are clearly in the wrong religion. We should all convert to Islam.
Is this belief really irrational? Isn’t it theoretically possible that God could command his followers to so spread the true religion, and if He did so, doesn’t God have every right to, since He is soverign over life and death?
Click to expand...
But Islam is not God’s religion.
I don’t know the answer to this question, and am not so sure that the Byzantine emperor’s criticism of Islam could not apply just as equally to the Judeao-Christian belief that God has, throughout the course of history, commanded His followers to put to the death innocent men, women, and children after having laid seige to several cities (cf. the Old Testament).
Click to expand...
Again, you’re commingling the OT with today. Also, I don’t know that any “innocents” were put to death.

Are you becoming an apologist for Islam, perhaps attracted to it in some strange way because of its violence?

Insofar as I can determine, the only sure way to be “saved” in Islam is to either kill someone for Allah or kill yourself for Allah. A very dangerous worldwide death cult.
 
Nita said:
Altho it may be difficult to blame them on a spiritual level, (if they are doing it because they truly believe that is what God is commanding them to do),
Click to expand...
I’m sorry, but has everyone gone insane? Yes, it is right to blame them.
I do not think it is even hypothetically possible that God would command us to spread the faith by violent mean.
Click to expand...
As applied to spreading the faith. But I darn well believe in the use of violence/warfare to defend the faith and society against Islamic intrusion and assault. And we don’t need a special revelation from God for that.
 
The violence in the OT was commanded in a specific time and place for a particular problem.

The NT states that we are to tell people of the faith and if they do not believe to just leave.

The Qur’an gives commands to use violence to spread the religon by war.

The Qur’anic mesage is distinctly different then the OT and NT. It directly violects both of them.
 
Sacramentalist said:
No one is answering my question.

Do people know how to read on this forum?
Click to expand...
Basic rule of forums: Starting a thread does not give one ownership of the thread. People might respond with something related, but not directly answer the question posed. That is the nature of discussion, not that people cannot read. If your question is not answered satisfactorily, please politely point out that the answers were not what you were looking for rather than being rhetorically snarky. Thanks.
 
SPH1 said:
I’m sorry, but has everyone gone insane? Yes, it is right to blame them.
Click to expand...
Maybe we’re talking about two different things when we speak of “blame”. I’m talking about judging someone guilty of serious sin - and therefore condemned unless they repent. I say we are unable to judge that since only God sees the heart; only God can judge the soul.

Nita
 
Nita said:
Maybe we’re talking about two different things when we speak of “blame”. I’m talking about judging someone guilty of serious sin - and therefore condemned unless they repent. I say we are unable to judge that since only God sees the heart; only God can judge the soul.

Nita
Click to expand...
Hmmm. My assessment still stands.
 
Of course Muslims can be blamed for Jihad. It is codified in Islamic law. I have never met one Muslim who agrees that this law should be removed. Their take on it is that Islam chooses right now to not follow that law so why should I be concerned about it?
 
We can (and should) judge whether or not an act is in conformity with the will of God as revealed to us in Sacred Scripture and through the Church, but we cannot judge the guilt of the person committing the act; we cannot judge that he will be sent to hell if he does not come to recognize the act as sinful and repent. Such judgement belongs to God alone. That is what Jesus meant when he said to “judge not…”

Nita
 
Nita said:
We can (and should) judge whether or not an act is in conformity with the will of God as revealed to us in Sacred Scripture and through the Church, but we cannot judge the guilt of the person committing the act; we cannot judge that he will be sent to hell if he does not come to recognize the act as sinful and repent. Such judgement belongs to God alone. That is what Jesus meant when he said to “judge not…”

Nita
Click to expand...
I don’t think that the orginal poster was asking about playing God and judging or holding people responsible at that level. God supported the idea of people judging those who did wong and harmed people. There is an entire book of the OT on Judges.
 
Sacramentalist said:
Gang:

I was thinking about this recently . . .

As Catholic Christians, there is, on our part, no denying that God can order us to kill innocent human beings, and that we are obliged to carry out these orders if and when they are given to us. The Old Testament is filled with examples of this.
Click to expand...
As a matter of fact the old Testament is not filled with this. God never commands us to kill innocent people. The commandment against murder directly bans the killing of the innocent – to do so is a great evil.

As one reads the scriptures during the Conquest and Judges, is it demonstrated that the people being driven out/killed are in fact not innocent at all, but their “cup of iniquity was full.” They were a wicked and cruel people that many of us could scare conceive. The scriptures also point out they had had a chance to repent of their evil but decided not to do so. Rehab, in Jericho, speaks of how "we have heard… " about how God dried up the Red sea and the Jordan, and how all the nations are in fear of you.

I would encourage you to acquire Jeff Cavins’ Bible Timeline series, which spends a great deal of time deciphering the old testmant, and also addresses this issue of was God just, and also that the God of the OT is the God of the New Testament.

FYI: The Marcian heresy holds that the God of the OT is not the God of the New testament.

The muslim avoids such logical problems by believing in a heretical (and illogical, as it relates to the concept of God) concept called Nominalism, which is that God can do whatever he wants, and can say that killing or raping is ok now, and then later say it is not ok.
 
Sacramentalist said:
Gang:

I was thinking about this recently . . .

As Catholic Christians, there is, on our part, no denying that God can order us to kill innocent human beings, and that we are obliged to carry out these orders if and when they are given to us. The Old Testament is filled with examples of this.
Click to expand...
What Catholics were ordered to kill 'innocent human beings"?
Sacramentalist said:
Now, flash forward to the Holy Father’s infamous Regensburg address, where he quoted a Byzantine emperor as follows:

Now, I don’t believe, as a matter of history, that God actually did command Muhammad to spread the true religion by the sword. (Orthodox Islam teaches that God did so command, but I believe Muhammad was delusional, or just wicked.)

However, what if Muslims are right to believe as they do?
Click to expand...
They are not right, because their revelations don’t come from God.
Sacramentalist said:
Is this belief really irrational? Isn’t it theoretically possible that God could command his followers to so spread the true religion, and if He did so, doesn’t God have every right to, since He is soverign over life and death?
Click to expand...
God is love.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top