Muslims - Catechism paragraph 841

[DebChris]

The bottom line is that it is not we who decide who will or will not go to heaven. God is the judge of hearts. It is He who knows the hearts of men. “It is not the one who cries ‘Lord, Lord’ who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of the Father.”
Islam means “submission to God.” It is submitting our will to that of God that we develop the humility necessary to do His Will. You might say that as Christians we have an advantage through personal intimacy and knowledge that non-Christians lack. This lack of knowledge does not mean that the non-Christian is unsaved. Jesus died for the salvation of all mankind. As Catholics we recognize a Baptism of Desire for those who seek to do God’s Will even if they lack the personal relationship that we enjoy.

Just as I accept the greeting of “salaam” (peace) from the Muslims with whom I deal on a daily basis, they accept my “Have a blessed day” and express surprise that an American worships God (evidenced by my going to Church).

 

[Prince_Valiant]

DebChris,

I know as a Catholic you’re supposed to believe all the things that you’re saying. Your catechism and magisterium say you must. And so you do. Not to do so would be fatal and endanger your salvation from the Roman church, because you must obey the Pontifex Maximus, no matter what.

Traditional Catholics (the kind the Catholic Church was made up of 50 years ago) do not agree that the things you are saying (which are according to CCC 841) are true. I wonder why that is?

This is one of the reasons I am not Roman Catholic. There’s no sure rock to stand on except the shifting opinions of men. The Scriptures therefore must always be the final arbiter in a dispute between Scripture and catechism or Scripture and tradition. Catechisms and tradition are not necessarily wrong, but they must always be measured by the eternal, divine yardstick of truth. If you say that reading the Scriptures for oneself to determine truth is “private judgment,” then every Catholic exercises “private judgment” when reading the CCC and coming to a conclusion as to what it says. How does a Catholic know that they’ve understood something correctly in the catechism? Answer: They need another magisterium to interpret what the magisterium has written in the catechism. And then they need another magisterium to interpret what the previous magisterium’s interpretation was–and on and on and on, ad infinitum…

PV

 

[Layman_F]

So, if I understand the “spirit” of this catechism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Moonies (though I know almost nothing about their doctrines) and Westborough Baptists fall within this area. By definition of “Antichrist”, don’t JW’s qualify by denying the divinity of the Messiah?

 

[jam070406]

Did you get a chance to read my earlier post (#20)? No one is saying anything like that.

Islam is a religion built from bits and pieces of Judaism and Christianity that presents itself (wrongly) as a correction of the older two faiths. Figures such as Abraham and even Jesus appear in their stories, albeit in altered forms. Their understanding of God (called Allah in Arabic, just as He is El in Hebrew and God in English) has its roots primarily in Judaism, so it denies the Christian Trinity or the notion of Jesus as God’s Son. In this, Islam is of course wrong, and no one is saying otherwise.

All that is being claimed is that the God Islam is “aiming” at is the same one that spoke to Abraham and sent Jesus. They are, in many respects, very, very wrong about what that God is like and what His will is, but that’s the God they believe in.

A Jewish believer might very easily claim that we Christians worship a different God, seeing no similarity between our Trinity and the God of Israel. However, historically speaking he would have to acknowledge that Christianity developed from Judaism, that we still regard the Jewish Scriptures as inspired, and that we at least believe we are worshipping a fuller understanding of the God of Abraham, even though he thinks our understanding is in fact deficient.

Similarly, Muslims believe they are worshipping the God of Abraham and of Jesus. They believe that their understanding of that God is a fuller one than Jews and Christians have. You and I would agree, I hope, that they are wrong about that, and that their picture of God is in fact diametrically opposed in some respects to the truth (when it comes to anything about Jesus or the Trinity, for example). However, they are closer to us than religions that don’t stem from the Abrahamic root at all, and we can use the similarities (monotheism, shared religious figures and events, and reverence – albeit less than He deserves – for Jesus) as stepping stones to bring Muslims to the full truth.

Usagi

Muslims hold ideas about God that are not true, even built on lies, and therefore worship a god that is foreign to the one True God. In other words, they worship a false god.

 

[jam070406]

Muslims trace their spiritual heritage to Abraham. Abraham rejected the polytheistic religions of the region in order to worship the “one creator God.” It is this “omnipresent, omnipotent, merciful God” who tested Abraham, and then provided the sacrificial ram for the holocaust. While the Bible records the history and how God worked in the lives of the Hebrews, His chosen people, it does not record the history of those who trace their ancestry to Ismael. If we accept that those who followed Ismail also worshiped the God of his father Abraham, it would not necessary follow that their experience of God would be identical to that of the Hebrews. In other words, their histories differ just as the history of America and the history of Mexico differ. Arabs and Jews will view the same events differently. Their history books will differ.
When Muslims make haj, they visit the sites they believe Abraham visited. They will not have the same affection for King David (although a Sunni woman told me of the relationship between Johnathon and David). What interest do they have in Moses?
As Christians, we take our history, what we believe about God from the Hebrews, accepting that the Jews are God’s chosen people from whom the Messiah came. Our history continues from there. It is only Christians who speak of a Triune God, who have the audacity to refer to God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
To Jews, the crucifixion is a stumbling block. For Muslims, it is the entire concept of the incarnation. Although neither Jew nor Muslim accepts Jesus Christ as truly God and truly man, it does not follow that either worships a God other than that of Abraham.
As Catholics, we believe in the infinite mercy of God. Even if a person holds an erroneous belief in who He is, can He still not lead that person to Himself? God’s arm is not too short to save.

There is not one person saved but through Jesus Christ. The Jews challenged Jesus with the same argument about being decendents of Abraham. Jesus said if they knew the Father they’d recognize Him. Before Abraham, I am! He said the Jews that rejected Him had the devil as their father.

 

[billie177]

It is unfortunate that this idea found its way into the catechism because its not true.
There is no salvation for Muslims, or anyone who rejects Jesus.

Two opposing ideas cannot both be true. God cannot both want non-believers to be killed, and not want non-believers to be killed. Either we must love our neighbour, or kill them as infidels. We cannot say that both are true and both are what God wants. One is true and one is a lie. One is from God and the other from satan.

Muslims do not reject Jesus.
Jesus is a prophet, he brings us the message of God and is a guide to our lifes just like many other prophets. Muslims believe in the prophets but only worship God.
It is incorrect to worship the creation istead of the creator.

What you state about killing non-believers is also incorrect. The Quran does not teach such things. Islam is a religion of peace.

 

[InTheBeginning]

Zoroastrians worship one god too, shouldn’t they be included in the plan of salvation then by this logic?

While it is true that Zoroastrians do believe in only one supreme being; theirs is NOT the God of Abraham that Islam worships, but called Ahura Mazda.