Muslims - Catechism paragraph 841

[DebChris]

Where did I say that the form of worship didn’t matter. I said the form of worship doesn’t changed God. Pretty big difference don’t you think?

Are “God” and “Allah” accurate translations/transliterations of YHWH? I say yes, since both refer to the God of Abraham. Abraham had one God, not two. Does this make any sense?

According to Reuters.com, 2.5 million Muslims made Haj this year. The 5 day Haj marks the sites that Islamic tradition says Abraham visited in Mecca.
Haj is how many Muslims spend Eid Al-Fitr, commemorating Abraham’s obedience to God. The temperature is 40 degrees Celsius (104 degrees Fahrenheit).
blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2010/11/15/haj-pilgrims-flock-to-mount-arafat-to-beg-forgiveness/

My overseas parish is sponsoring a trip to the Holy Land over Christmas. I spent too much money while I was home this summer, so I am not going.
You and I have been in agreement throughout this thread. The object of our worship has not changed. While there may be similarities in our worship styles, Muslims and Christians do have a different understanding of who God is. This difference in understanding has also been addressed. A Muslim would not pray the Litany of the Sacred Heart of Jesus or the Jesus Prayer; nor meditate on the Life of Christ while praying the rosary. As Christians, we do not call Mohamed God’s prophet. Only Christians dare call God, “Father.” Prayer does not change God. Prayer changes us.

*Father, I abandon myself into your hands; do with me what you will. Whatever you may do, I thank you; I am ready for all, I accept all. Let only your Will be done in me, and in all your creatures–I wish no more than this, Lord.
Into your hands I commend my soul; I offer it to You with all the love of my heart, for I love You, Lord, and so need to give myself, to surrender myself into Your hands without reserve, and with boundless confidence, for You are my Father *–Charles de Foucald

 

[Prince_Valiant]

Hmmm…where did my posts go? Ah, well, we know this is not a blog where the truth will be listened to.

And where did the Traditional Catholic’s posts go?

No one will ever convince me that Muslims and Catholics both worship the same deity. All pre-Vatican II popes would have called the Novus Ordo catholics heretics.

 

[onenow1]

First, forgive me because I’m not officially Catholic, but I’m a Christian who no longer accepts the teachings and multiple interpretations found in Protestantism, and I’ve come to believe in the validity and authority of the Catholic Church.

Please help me. In the message boards of a separate internet website, I’ve encountered a Protestant fundamentalist who is asking me to comment about a paragraph in the Catholic Catechism which speaks about Muslims. It is the following:

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

He claims the paragraph states that Muslims share the same fate as Christians, implying that because Muslims worship the same God as Christians, they don’t need to accept Jesus as Lord and their Savior in order to go to Heaven. I have no idea what to say in response to him. Can you please give me some advice about how to answer his question? Thanks!

I think the first thing I would do, is ask his belief about Muslims, toward God.

The Jews also believe in God but not the Trinity. Jesus, never condems anyone. His mission is to reveal God in the fullest sense, as Trinitarian family. So the Catholic Church like Jesus condems no one.Humanity, is not in a position to make a judgement for God. Love= Father,Son, Holy Spirit.
My thoughts

God Bless

 

[Prince_Valiant]

Muslims believe that the Qur’an was a revelation from their god, Allah, to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. If Catholics and Muslims worship the same deity, Allah, why would “Allah” have inspired the following:

“O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity : desist:” it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son." (Surah 4:171)

Catholics worship and adore the Holy Trinity. Why would their God declare: “Say not ‘Trinity’ : desist”? Why would He declare: “(far exalted is He) above having a son”?

 

[DebChris]

catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0301fea4.asp

Meditate and study upon these, then when you have a firm grasp, reply.

I hope this helps.

God Bless.

Chris.

I checked out these very informative websites.
I like the clear signal on the TV vs. fuzzy TV signal analogy. With the fuzzy TV, the message is distorted.

 

[Nooj]

Muslims believe that the Qur’an was a revelation from their god, Allah, to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. If Catholics and Muslims worship the same deity, Allah, why would “Allah” have inspired the following:

“O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity : desist:” it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son." (Surah 4:171)

Catholics worship and adore the Holy Trinity. Why would their God declare: “Say not ‘Trinity’ : desist”? Why would He declare: “(far exalted is He) above having a son”?

The Qur’an isn’t accurate. Doesn’t mean they’re not worshipping the same God.

 

[Prince_Valiant]

The Qur’an isn’t accurate. Doesn’t mean they’re not worshipping the same God.

I agree with you that the Qur’an isn’t accurate. In fact, it’s kind of insane. So your take is that Muslims unknowingly worship the Holy Trinity, who is Allah, and that Allah has inspired the Qur’an with a command not to worship Allah, who is a Trinity. Hmmm, I’m going to have to meditate on this…

 

[Nooj]

I agree with you that the Qur’an isn’t accurate. In fact, it’s kind of insane. So your take is that Muslims unknowingly worship the Holy Trinity, who is Allah, and that Allah has inspired the Qur’an with a command not to worship Allah, who is a Trinity. Hmmm, I’m going to have to meditate on this…

No to the bolded part.

 

[Prince_Valiant]

Or maybe you’re saying that Muslims unknowingly worship the Holy Trinity, who is Allah, but their inspired book, the Qur’an is not accurate, so really Muslims are our brothers and sisters in faith because we both worship the Holy Trinity (Allah). Now I’ve got it.

I think, then, that Pope Benedict should simply create a uniate for Muslims (sort of like the one that exists for Eastern Catholics and the one that’s in the works for Anglo-Catholics). There could be an exchange of clergy when needed. Roman Catholic priests could be sent to serve in mosques, and imams could be sent to Catholic parishes that are without a priest. Priest shortage solved!

There would, of course, be a few issues to work out. The celibacy issue would have to be dealt with, but I think that could be overcome, since the Church in the first millennium had many married priests. The disharmony between the Sunni and Shi’ites would be another issue, though not insurmountable.

And why limit a uniate to Muslims? Since Protestants already knowingly worship the Holy Trinity, Pope Benedict could create a uniate for all of the separated brethren. Protestant pastors could serve in Catholic parishes and vice versa.

 

[Prince_Valiant]

Or is it an “ordinariate” that Pope Benedict should establish? This would involve no territory, right? I’m not sure whether a uniate or an ordinariate would be better in order to include our Muslim brethren in the faith.

 

[Prince_Valiant]

Actually, in the case of Anglo-Catholics, it’s an ordinariate, not a uniate.

 

[Usagi]

Or maybe you’re saying that Muslims unknowingly worship the Holy Trinity, who is Allah, but their inspired book, the Qur’an is not accurate, so really Muslims are our brothers and sisters in faith because we both worship the Holy Trinity (Allah). Now I’ve got it.

Did you get a chance to read my earlier post (#20)? No one is saying anything like that.

Islam is a religion built from bits and pieces of Judaism and Christianity that presents itself (wrongly) as a correction of the older two faiths. Figures such as Abraham and even Jesus appear in their stories, albeit in altered forms. Their understanding of God (called Allah in Arabic, just as He is El in Hebrew and God in English) has its roots primarily in Judaism, so it denies the Christian Trinity or the notion of Jesus as God’s Son. In this, Islam is of course wrong, and no one is saying otherwise.

All that is being claimed is that the God Islam is “aiming” at is the same one that spoke to Abraham and sent Jesus. They are, in many respects, very, very wrong about what that God is like and what His will is, but that’s the God they believe in.

A Jewish believer might very easily claim that we Christians worship a different God, seeing no similarity between our Trinity and the God of Israel. However, historically speaking he would have to acknowledge that Christianity developed from Judaism, that we still regard the Jewish Scriptures as inspired, and that we at least believe we are worshipping a fuller understanding of the God of Abraham, even though he thinks our understanding is in fact deficient.

Similarly, Muslims believe they are worshipping the God of Abraham and of Jesus. They believe that their understanding of that God is a fuller one than Jews and Christians have. You and I would agree, I hope, that they are wrong about that, and that their picture of God is in fact diametrically opposed in some respects to the truth (when it comes to anything about Jesus or the Trinity, for example). However, they are closer to us than religions that don’t stem from the Abrahamic root at all, and we can use the similarities (monotheism, shared religious figures and events, and reverence – albeit less than He deserves – for Jesus) as stepping stones to bring Muslims to the full truth.

Usagi

 

[Nooj]

Prince Valiant, do you think that Jews worship God?

 

[Prince_Valiant]

Prince Valiant, do you think that Jews worship God?

Nooj, I would put them in a different category than the Muslims because they share the same Scriptures (O.T.–except for the Deuterocanonicals) and Christianity emerged from a Jew (Jesus) and from a Jewish milieu. However, as St. Paul says, they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. They don’t understand their own Scriptures, because their own Scriptures point to Jesus as the Messiah.

Muslims worship one of the many gods that were worshipped in Arabia at the time of Muhammed. They call him “Allah,” but he’s not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. (True, Ishmael descended from Abraham, but the descendants of Ishmael for the most part do not worship Yahweh. They worship this “Allah,” which is no god at all.) Granted, when the Scriptures are translated for Christians living in a Muslim country, they use “Allah” as the term for the Christian God, but they don’t mean the “Allah” of the Muslim religion. This is why it is so devastating to the morale of Catholics to see Pope John Paul II kiss a Qur’an. What in the world was he doing??

 

[Usagi]

Muslims worship one of the many gods that were worshipped in Arabia at the time of Muhammed. They call him “Allah,” but he’s not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. (True, Ishmael descended from Abraham, but the descendants of Ishmael for the most part do not worship Yahweh. They worship this “Allah,” which is no god at all.) Granted, when the Scriptures are translated for Christians living in a Muslim country, they use “Allah” as the term for the Christian God, but they don’t mean the “Allah” of the Muslim religion. This is why it is so devastating to the morale of Catholics to see Pope John Paul II kiss a Qur’an. What in the world was he doing??

It’s true that the name Allah was used for a pagan deity before the rise of Islam. However, in Arabic the word just means “the god.” That’s why Arab Christians use it too, referring to the Trinity. Islam is pretty strictly monotheistic, and represents a rejection of the pagan ways of the past, so it is unlikely that Muslims are literally worshipping the pagan deity who was known by the name Allah. Rather, they are using that name for a distorted version of the Jewish/Christian God, as demonstrated by their references to figures such as Abraham and Jesus.

As you probably know, “El” or the plural “Elohim” is frequently used for the God of Israel in some Old Testament writings. There is evidence that the name El (which, like Allah but in a different Semitic language, just means “god”) was also used for one of the Canaanite deities. However, even though the Hebrews used the same name for the God of Israel that their Canaanite neighbors used for a member of their pantheon, that was clearly not meant to indicate that Yahweh was the pagan El. Rather they just took the generic word “god” and applied it to the God. I argue that the Muslims have done the same thing.

Usagi

 

[Nooj]

Nooj, I would put them in a different category than the Muslims because they share the same Scriptures (O.T.–except for the Deuterocanonicals) and Christianity emerged from a Jew (Jesus) and from a Jewish milieu. However, as St. Paul says, they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. They don’t understand their own Scriptures, because their own Scriptures point to Jesus as the Messiah.

Christianity and Jews don’t share the same scriptures. Jews don’t share the NT. And I don’t see how that’s relevant in the first place. They reject the Trinity and they reject the idea that Jesus is God. In other words, they’re no different from Muslims.

Muslims worship one of the many gods that were worshipped in Arabia at the time of Muhammed. They call him “Allah,” but he’s not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. (True, Ishmael descended from Abraham, but the descendants of Ishmael for the most part do not worship Yahweh. They worship this “Allah,” which is no god at all.) Granted, when the Scriptures are translated for Christians living in a Muslim country, they use “Allah” as the term for the Christian God, but they don’t mean the “Allah” of the Muslim religion. This is why it is so devastating to the morale of Catholics to see Pope John Paul II kiss a Qur’an. What in the world was he doing??

It doesn’t matter how much you find this outrageous. It’s what Catholics believe. The Church said it, they believe it. The end. Complaining about it on this forum won’t achieve anything.

 

[DebChris]

Muslims trace their spiritual heritage to Abraham. Abraham rejected the polytheistic religions of the region in order to worship the “one creator God.” It is this “omnipresent, omnipotent, merciful God” who tested Abraham, and then provided the sacrificial ram for the holocaust. While the Bible records the history and how God worked in the lives of the Hebrews, His chosen people, it does not record the history of those who trace their ancestry to Ismael. If we accept that those who followed Ismail also worshiped the God of his father Abraham, it would not necessary follow that their experience of God would be identical to that of the Hebrews. In other words, their histories differ just as the history of America and the history of Mexico differ. Arabs and Jews will view the same events differently. Their history books will differ.
When Muslims make haj, they visit the sites they believe Abraham visited. They will not have the same affection for King David (although a Sunni woman told me of the relationship between Johnathon and David). What interest do they have in Moses?
As Christians, we take our history, what we believe about God from the Hebrews, accepting that the Jews are God’s chosen people from whom the Messiah came. Our history continues from there. It is only Christians who speak of a Triune God, who have the audacity to refer to God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
To Jews, the crucifixion is a stumbling block. For Muslims, it is the entire concept of the incarnation. Although neither Jew nor Muslim accepts Jesus Christ as truly God and truly man, it does not follow that either worships a God other than that of Abraham.
As Catholics, we believe in the infinite mercy of God. Even if a person holds an erroneous belief in who He is, can He still not lead that person to Himself? God’s arm is not too short to save.

 

[Prince_Valiant]

Christianity and Jews don’t share the same scriptures. Jews don’t share the NT. And I don’t see how that’s relevant in the first place. They reject the Trinity and they reject the idea that Jesus is God. In other words, they’re no different from Muslims.

It doesn’t matter how much you find this outrageous. It’s what Catholics believe. The Church said it, they believe it. The end. Complaining about it on this forum won’t achieve anything.

Nooj, the point I was trying to make was that Christians and Jews share the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings. Muslims and Christians don’t share any holy writings.

Jews are no different than Muslims by rejecting the Trinity and Jesus’ divinity. Yet, I would put them in a different category than Muslims. St. Paul calls Israel an “olive tree” that has had branches broken off so that Gentiles could be grafted in. The fact that Gentiles are grafted into Israel (by believing in Jesus) puts Christians “in a certain, although imperfect, communion” (to borrow language from CCC 838 regarding the “separated brethren”) with the Jews. (Actually, there’s no “communion” at all, despite CCC 840’s laughable statement, “God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals.”)

That said, Jews are disbelievers like the Muslims, for “not all who are Israel are Israel.” Some who have experienced NDEs have been surprised to see people in heaven who were Muslims on earth. Jesus explained that they were saved because, when they were dying, they called out to him. The fact that they would not have been saved otherwise, means that their Allah cannot be the same as God the Father, because those who don’t have the Son, as St. John says, do not have the Father–they’re not in fellowship with the Father, even though they’re worshipping “Allah.”

For centuries the Church would have pronounced any Catholic daring to reverently kiss the Qur’an a heretic. This whole idea that “together with us they adore the one, merciful God” is a recent notion imported into the Catholic Church by certain infiltrators with an agenda. Pope John Paul II was part of this agenda. Personally, I theorize that JPII was either a Communist plant or a Masonic infiltrator, obeying the orders he had received to promote a One World False Religious System that welcomes all the world’s religions. And he obeyed his orders and played his part beautifully. That’s why Assisi took place. That’s why we have these changes in the catechism. And I believe this false religious system is the “prostitute” (Babylon the Great) spoken of in Revelation. We’re seeing the beginning of it with these slow but strategic changes to Catholic teaching.

 

[DebChris]

A family member posted the following link to FB which can be seen as related to this discussion. Muslims, Jews, and Christians are all children of Abraham. Each of us worships a God of power, mercy, and wisdom. God told Abraham not to worry about Ishmael whom he would also bless. Ishmael is the lineage that Muslims claim. Jews and Christians claim Israel as our heritage. We share the same values. Good helps the poor and weak while evil crushes dissent and imposes its own will.
comicsalliance.com/2010/10/19/the-99-muslim-islamic-superhero-comic/?a_dgi=aolshare_facebook

When the Apostles asked Jesus to teach them to pray, He gave them the radical prayer that we call the Our Father. It is only Christians who claim belief in a Triune God and claim the familial intimacy that allows us to call God Abba, to pray in the name of the Son. It is Christians who claim that God dwells within each of us by the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Prince_Valiant]

A family member posted the following link to FB which can be seen as related to this discussion. Muslims, Jews, and Christians are all children of Abraham. Each of us worships a God of power, mercy, and wisdom. God told Abraham not to worry about Ishmael whom he would also bless. Ishmael is the lineage that Muslims claim. Jews and Christians claim Israel as our heritage. We share the same values. Good helps the poor and weak while evil crushes dissent and imposes its own will.

Yet remember, according to the Roman Catholic New American Bible, “For not all who are of Israel are Israel, nor are they all children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but ‘It is through Isaac that descendants shall bear your name.’” (Romans 9)

Christians do not share the same values with Muslims and Jews. Our goals are different (salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ). Our morals are different (Christians are taught to “love our enemies.”) Our spiritual lives are different (we worship Jesus Christ, the Son of God). Our eternal destiny is different (our eternal home is heaven).