Muslims, Christians, and the Trinity

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**Thomas: ** How do you approach the souls that come to you? If they are Muslim how do you work with them and how do you explain the difference between Christianity and Islam. How do you draw them in?
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                         **Fr. Daniel:** I think that in any missionary work,                you must first of all understand the culture of the people and you                have to be able to speak within the bounds of that cultural language,                because otherwise your word cannot be heard or understood. So, when                you talk with a Muslim, you must understand the Muslim mind. Don’t                just try to throw in words and phrases that are familiar to Christians,                to Orthodox, because they will not be understood by a Muslim. First                of all, when you talk to a Muslim, you have to emphasize that God                is One.
** Thomas**: Because they already believe this?

Fr. Daniel: Not only because they already believe this, but because they accuse us [the Christians] of having three gods. That is the problem. So, you have to clear up the misunderstanding that we worship three gods. Don’t try to use our traditional language, like Father, Son and Holy Spirit – because for them, that is three gods! In their minds, the Father is different, the Son is different, the Holy Spirit is different. For myself, I emphasize that God is One, that this One God is also the Living God, and as the Living God He has a Mind. Because if God didn’t have a mind, I’m sorry to say, He would be like an idiot. God has to have a mind. Within the Mind of God there is the Word.
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                         Thus, the Word of God is contained within God Himself. So, God in                His Word is not two, but one. God is full with His own Word; He                is pregnant with Word. And that Word of God is then revealed to                man. The thing that is contained within – like being impregnated                within oneself – when it is revealed, it is called being born out                of that person. That is why the Word of God is called the Son: He                is the Child Who is born from within God, but outside time. So,                that is why this One God is called the Father, because He has His                own Word Who is born out of Him, and is called the Son. So, Father                and Son are not two gods. The Father is One God, the Son is that                Word of God. The Muslim believes that God created the world through                the Word. So what the Muslim believes in as Word, is what the Christians                call the Son! In that way, we can explain to them that God does                not have a son separate from Himself.
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Ahimsa:
Muslims claim we can’t add: 1+1+1=1?

I ask if they can multiply:1 x 1 x 1=1 !
 
And so then… 1 x 1 x 1 = 1

Wow!.. that certainly explains the Trinity.

But then again… why stop at 3 only?

After all 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1… ad infinitum… would still be equal to only one.

If their idea of God is 1 x 1 x 1 = 1, then Christians are selling their concept of the Almighty way too short by limiting it to just 3 manifestations.

Perhaps they should try pantheism like the Hindus as they do not limit the things that they worship to only 3.
 
hamba2han said:
And so then… 1 x 1 x 1 = 1

Wow!.. that certainly explains the Trinity.

But then again… why stop at 3 only?

After all 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1… ad infinitum… would still be equal to only one.

If their idea of God is 1 x 1 x 1 = 1, then Christians are selling their concept of the Almighty way too short by limiting it to just 3 manifestations.

Perhaps they should try pantheism like the Hindus as they do not limit the things that they worship to only 3.
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That is a very good point, Ham…! 🙂

…and that is precisely the mistake that the polytheists fall into.

The Trinity is “3” because we have been told that God is three persons. We have not been told that God is four persons, or two persons, but rather three persons.

You have been told that God is one “thing”, which really can’t be described as a “person” at all.

That’s what you’ve been told by your “prophet”.

We’ve been told not only by our Prophet, but by our actual God.

Why should we discount what our God has told us, because of what your “prophet” has told you?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.
 
hamba2han said:
And so then… 1 x 1 x 1 = 1

Wow!.. that certainly explains the Trinity.

But then again… why stop at 3 only?

After all 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1… ad infinitum… would still be equal to only one.

If their idea of God is 1 x 1 x 1 = 1, then Christians are selling their concept of the Almighty way too short by limiting it to just 3 manifestations.

Perhaps they should try pantheism like the Hindus as they do not limit the things that they worship to only 3.
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I was simply replying to the facil “disproof” of the Trinity that most muslims give, and why we are not impressed by it.

And we haven’t limited our concenpt of the Almighty to just 3 manifestations.

The Almighty has manifested to us that He, I AM, is Three Persons, no more, no less.

Can you explain why Allaah speaks only Arabic?

Seems you have a very limited God.

Perhaps He should try Berlitz, so He doesn’t have to limit those who can worship Him.
 
Keikiolu said:
That is a very good point, Ham…! 🙂

…and that is precisely the mistake that the polytheists fall into.

The Trinity is “3” because we have been told that God is three persons. We have not been told that God is four persons, or two persons, but rather three persons.

You have been told that God is one “thing”, which really can’t be described as a “person” at all.

That’s what you’ve been told by your “prophet”.

We’ve been told not only by our Prophet, but by our actual God.

Why should we discount what our God has told us, because of what your “prophet” has told you?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.
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Your actual God told you that, eh? I didn’t think you all believed that God has sent anything down since the death of your prophet. I thought he sealed prophethood, but I guess I was wrong, as your actual God told you.

We are only telling what our “prophet” Who IS Our “actual God” (and your Quran tells you we so believe) said, so I don’t understand your distinction.

The word of your God (kalaam Allaah) I thought was contained in a written work, or its recited speech. A rather limited limited concept of God,…that is precisely the mistake materialists fall into. Is it eternal speech, or created?

To Allah is the East and the West, why then do you have to bow to a stone cube, with what inside (do you know?). And why kiss a black stone? Venerating stones, it is precisely the mistake idolators fall into.
 
Jesus was more than just a prophet. (John 3:16)

If by Allah you simply mean God then I suppose in a way you are correct, but you fail to understand that the idea of God in the East and West are very different.

Would it help Muslims to think of the way Christians see God as this?

There is only one God, but he has 3 manifestations or 3 ways he works and shows himself.

I. A heavenly one.
II. An Earthly one.
III. A spirit one that is more mysterious.

A principle prayer is “I believe in one God, the Father the almighty, creator of heaven and Earth…”

I dont see how this can be so confusing.
 
Abraxsis said:
Jesus was more than just a prophet. (John 3:16)

If by Allah you simply mean God then I suppose in a way you are correct, but you fail to understand that the idea of God in the East and West are very different.

Would it help Muslims to think of the way Christians see God as this?

There is only one God, but he has 3 manifestations or 3 ways he works and shows himself.

I. A heavenly one.
II. An Earthly one.
III. A spirit one that is more mysterious.

A principle prayer is “I believe in one God, the Father the almighty, creator of heaven and Earth…”

I dont see how this can be so confusing.
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Actually Christianity is an Eastern religion. Where’s Jerusalem and Bethlehem.

Actually what you describe is modalism, which is not Orthodox Catholic dogma. The Father is eternally Father, the Son eternally Son (before and after the incarnation), the Spirit eternally Spirit.

It is more like the Sun seen in the sky (Father), the Light that it produces (Son) and the Heat it emits (Spirit), three energies but one sun.
 
hamba2han said:
And so then… 1 x 1 x 1 = 1

Wow!.. that certainly explains the Trinity.

But then again… why stop at 3 only?
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It doesn’t matter, you’ve already then refuted the classic rejection, because it’s still 1

The issue here isn’t a demonstration of 3 in 1 or 4 in 1 but that 3 in 1 can happen.
 
Isa_Almisry said:
Can you explain why Allaah speaks only Arabic?
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The Qur’an states that Allah spoke to Moses (pbuh) directly.

004.164
**Of some messengers We have already told thee the story; of others We have not;- and to Moses Allah spoke direct;- **

Does this mean that Allah spoke to Moses (pbuh) in Arabic?
 
hamba2han said:
And so then… 1 x 1 x 1 = 1

Wow!.. that certainly explains the Trinity.

But then again… why stop at 3 only?

After all 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1… ad infinitum… would still be equal to only one.

If their idea of God is 1 x 1 x 1 = 1, then Christians are selling their concept of the Almighty way too short by limiting it to just 3 manifestations.

Perhaps they should try pantheism like the Hindus as they do not limit the things that they worship to only 3.
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One God revealed to us in three ways (so far)
 
hamba2han said:
The Qur’an states that Allah spoke to Moses (pbuh) directly.

004.164
**Of some messengers We have already told thee the story; of others We have not;- and to Moses Allah spoke direct;- **

Does this mean that Allah spoke to Moses (pbuh) in Arabic?
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You tell me. You’re the one that believes it’s the very speech of God and “an Arabic Quran,”
 
I am waiting for one theological response from a Muslim to the OP quotations, which i find great.
 
The OP seems to be plagued by contradictions. First:
Don’t try to use our traditional language, like Father, Son and Holy Spirit – because for them, that is three gods! In their minds, the Father is different, the Son is different, the Holy Spirit is different.
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If the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are not different…then in what way are they three? Surely there must be a difference, or else there would be no way to distinguish one person from another.
Because if God didn’t have a mind, I’m sorry to say, He would be like an idiot. God has to have a mind. Within the Mind of God there is the Word.
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So God must have parts the same way a human does???

If God didn’t have legs, he wouldn’t be able to walk? Or if God didn’t have muscles, he’d have no power?

The analogy breaks down completely on this point. If God has parts, then he is not infinite. If his mind can be separated from him, then his mind must have limits-namely, those limits that separate the mind from the “other parts” of God.
In that way, we can explain to them that God does not have a son separate from Himself.
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This is perhaps most problematic. The son is not separate from God, yet…the son is a flesh and blood man. So God is a flesh and blood man and also…not a flesh and blood man?

It’s a through and through contradiction: The trinity means you have to believe that God has distinct parts, and no distinct parts at the same time.
 
Isa_Almisry said:
Let’s not stray into modalism.

The One God eternally in Three Persons has once and for all revealed that fact to us.
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Douay Bible says:

1 john 5

7 And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one. 8 And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three are one.

But as per New American Catholic Bible same verses say:
1 John 5
7
So there are three that testify,
8
the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord.

why? what happened to verse# 7 in recent Catholic Bible?
 
Christianity is a Western Religion when you compare it to Buddahism, Hindi, or Shintoism. There are no “real” western religions in the sense that unless you are talking about the Aztec, Mayans, or other native american ones.

Orthodox view or not, thats how I have always felt about the trinity. You could say Im kind of a Gnostic of some kind, I dont really have a way of attending Gnostic mass or anything because of its nature.

As far as Muslims who dont understand its not because it is confusing but because they refuse to acknowledge it. Muslims are taught to hate Christians and they are taught that only Islam is correct and therefore all others are wrong. Simply put, a muslims who entertains other religous ideas are bad muslims. It shouldnt be a shock to people why they are the way they are.
 
Abraxsis said:
As far as Muslims who dont understand its not because it is confusing but because they refuse to acknowledge it. Muslims are taught to hate Christians and they are taught that only Islam is correct and therefore all others are wrong. Simply put, a muslims who entertains other religous ideas are bad muslims. It shouldnt be a shock to people why they are the way they are.
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And as far as Jews who dont understand Christianity and Trinity its not because it is confusing but because they refuse to acknowledge it. Jews are taught to hate Christians and they are taught that only Judaism is correct and therefore all others are wrong. Simply put, a Jews who entertains other religous ideas are bad Jews or jew-haters. It shouldnt be a shock to people why they are the way they are
 
The Jews dont believe it though! It is doing them a diservice to compare muslims with jews when one of the religons only wants to kill and subjugate people and other does not.

Muslims are taught to hate when they are very young, Jews are not.

In my opinion though the Jews are as lost as the muslims. They are so far from truth they can be classified as unsaveable. Just look at the things the O.T. God does! Worldwide floods, killing, hateful smites, and dislocation are common themes of the O.T. Why would a God who loves people do that?
 
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