Muslims Descendants of Ishmael?

[MartinJordan]

Okay I agree with you, I reject that Gospel, and all the tales on it, but I will not reject the “idea” itself of JESUS creating live birds form the clay…

P.S., That clay birds tale is in Quran also.

Yes, I am indeed aware of the clay birds tale is in the Quran.

This reminds me… we know God created Adam from dust (dry version of clay ) now that is a beautiful thing because He wanted Man to till the Earth and take care of it.

But clay birds? Pales in comparison and very frankly good only for entertainment value.

MJ

 

[mercytruth]

Waraka ibn Nawfal is not Khadija’s cousin nor Muhammed’s uncle!!!, he is only a far relative to them.

Properly he waited for another replacement to craft the Quranic verses for him…

Does not this (Muslim for Jesus website) state that Waraka ibn Nawfal was the son of Khadija’s paternal uncle, making them actual cousins? Waraka ibn Nawfal refers to Muhammad as his ‘nephew’, so perhaps one is not to take that literally.( I hope I am not offending anyone by using this website. It is quoting three references from Sahih Bukhari, and if these references are misquoted my apologies. In the meantime I will attempt to cross check these references for accuracy.)

For those who might be interested in the relationship between Waraka ibn Nawfal, a Christian, and Muhammad, this (Muslim for Jesus website) gives all the references.

muslimsforjesus.org/Christians%20and%20Islam/Waraqa%20Ibn%20Nawfal-The%20Second%20Witness%20to%20the%20Prophethood%20of%20Muhammad/Waraqa%20Ibn%20Nawfal-The%20Second%20Witness%20to%20the%20Prophethood%20of%20Muhammad.htm

I am also including this Muslim website regarding this topic:

islamic-replies.ucoz.com/2/What_About_Waraqa.html

God’s peace

micah

 

[CatholicofAgora]

Yes, the Arabs are of Semitic origin, they are descendants of Shem. Ishmael was the firstborn son of Abraham, and this is why Muslims believe what they do. However, God chose Isaac to be the one through whom God’s promise to Abraham would proceed.

Nevertheless, It is important to remember that God told Abraham that Ishmael would become a ‘great nation’. Also, God sent an angel to Hagar and her son when they were in the wilderness. Now, if I were to believe that an angel appeared to Muhammad, I would tend to believe it was the same angel that was sent to minister to Hagar and Ishmael in the wilderness two thousand years prior.

The other interesting story regarding Muhammad is that his wife brought Muhammad to her cousin, (Muhammad’s uncle). Muhammads’ uncle was a Christian Jew, or a Christian who knew how to read and write in Hebrew. He was translating the Christian gospel into Hebrew at the time. Muhammad’s uncle was of great encouragement to him, when Muhammad in great fear had told him of the angel that appeared to him. Unfortunately, Muhammad’s uncle died shortly thereafter, and Muhammad’s ‘revelations’ ceased for a time. If Muhammad’s uncle had live longer, maybe the Koran would have been written somewhat differently.

It is my desire to understand the monotheistic faiths without promoting discord. One can be truthful without being one-sided. It calls for an openess in hearing what another believes and respecting those who disagree with us, and who desire to live peaceably with us.

God’s peace

micah

How do you know that they are the descendants of Shem?

 

[mercytruth]

How do you know that they are the descendants of Shem?

I should qualify this statement by saying that it is possible that not all Arabs are descendants of Shem. Ishmael being the son of Abraham is a descendant of Shem.
Shem being one of the three sons of Noah, the other two being Japheth and Ham.

According to this website, Joktan a descendant of Shem settled in the region of Arabia.

custance.org/old/noah/ch4h.html

God’s peace

micah

 

[Psalm110]

Hi All,

Just reading the following verse from Genesis 16:11-12

And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction.
And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Does this have anything to do with today’s Ismael descendents .i.e: Islam, which constantly fights and kills Christians "which we claim to be part of Isaac spiritually ?. Is it also referring to the high persecution of Christians in the Middle East, Asia Minor, certain parts of Africa were Christians live amongst Ismael descendents?.

From what I’ve read from the Book of Genesis is Ismael and Isaac lived together without any turmoil.

 

[CatholicofAgora]

Hi All,

Just reading the following verse from Genesis 16:11-12

And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction.
And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Does this have anything to do with today’s Ismael descendents .i.e: Islam, which constantly fights and kills Christians "which we claim to be part of Isaac spiritually ?. Is it also referring to the high persecution of Christians in the Middle East, Asia Minor, certain parts of Africa were Christians live amongst Ismael descendents?.

From what I’ve read from the Book of Genesis is Ismael and Isaac lived together without any turmoil.

I think that that may be true for his descendants if they became the rulers of Egypt and Babylon (modern day Iraq)?

 

[Nabooru]

Bringing people back to life, healing the sick, giving sight to the blind…well these serve mankind. But Clay birds to real birds?

Then again there is that talking donkey from book of Numbers…well that one is another story

MJ

I agree. All of the miracles in the Bible served a purpose. Balaam’s *** spoke to him to chastise him for his cruelty and encourage him to bless the Israelites. Jesus was asked to perform magic tricks, but He turned them down every time. Crafting ceramic birds and making them come to life serves no purpose but to make people go, “ooh, aah…”. Jesus was trying to set an example, and live as the Messiah should live, not entertain people. The sad thing is that many people listened to Him and watched Him in the hope of seeing Him do something neato, and not to learn anything.

When I was involved in Hinduism, I remember being entranced by the “miracles” of gurus and swamis. They levitated, manifested jewelry out of nowhere, cracked open coconuts and made flowers drop out, etc. It was certainly impressive…and that’s about it. No one was healed or saved. They gathered their followers and earned their devotion by these little feats of magic.

I was reminded, “By your fruits you shall know them”… And it made me think. Hindus and fakirs and Buddhist monks could perform unexplainable acts, but none of them could do anything of purpose or aid.

 

[mercytruth]

The Quran’s versions of Bible stories are typical of those that would be found in a community that calls itself Christian, yet most of the population being illiterate, relies on word-of-mouth and local legends to develop their religion. There is evidence of a lot of pseudo-Christian influence and stories that didn’t make it into the Gospels, such as Jesus talking as a baby, making birds out of clay and turning them to life, etc. These apocryphal tales were common among less-educated Christians. Muhammad just repeated them as he heard them.

In Surah 3:48-49, and Surah 5:110 there is mention of Isa making a bird out of clay.

masjidtucson.org/quran/noframes/ch3.html

masjidtucson.org/quran/noframes/ch5.html

This story is similar to Jesus making 12 sparrows out of clay found in Chapter 27 of the pseudo-gospel of Matthew:

gnosis.org/library/psudomat.htm

In Surah 19:23-25 there is a story of Isa getting dates from a palm tree and water from beneath for his mother, Maryam

masjidtucson.org/quran/noframes/ch19.html

This is similar to the story of the fruit from the palm tree and the rivulet of water from beneath that Jesus gets for his mother, Mary. Found in the same pseudo-gospel of Matthew, chapter 20:

gnosis.org/library/psudomat.htm

Thanks for reminding that a few stories from the Koran of Isa’s childhood are similar to the ones that are found in the pseudo-gospel of Matthew, which may have been originally written in Hebrew.

God’s peace

micah

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

I certainly will not debate with you regarding whether or not Muhammad was influenced by Jews or Christians in the understanding of his revelations. However, since his wife placed some sort of confidence in her cousin, Waraka ibn Nawfal, who can say what sort of conversations might have taken place between Muhuammad and his uncle, if his uncle had lived longer? It does seem puzzling that these revelations ceased for a time after his uncle’s death. A hypothetical, what if Waraja ibn Nawfal had been praying for his nephew, Muhammad prior to the revelations?

peace

micah

Muhammed got his Christology from a heretical sect of Jewish-Christians who called themselves the Ebionites. They did not believe in the divinity of Christ, they considered Paul to be an apostate, and they only accept the gospel of Matthew-edited.

 

[aragonjohn1]

I certainly will not debate with you regarding whether or not Muhammad was influenced by Jews or Christians in the understanding of his revelations. However, since his wife placed some sort of confidence in her cousin, Waraka ibn Nawfal, who can say what sort of conversations might have taken place between Muhuammad and his uncle, if his uncle had lived longer? It does seem puzzling that these revelations ceased for a time after his uncle’s death. A hypothetical, what if Waraja ibn Nawfal had been praying for his nephew, Muhammad prior to the revelations?

peace

micah

i have heard a Talk by Fr. Pacwa on this very same subject.

( Eg: { from talk} according to Islam Mary the mother of the islam Jesus she is sister of Moses and could Potentially be 1300+ years old, the letter o in other languages is an I in muslim language making the Jesus of hebrew/Christian tradition different name different person )

Intriguing…

this thread also kinda touches on that subject

• forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=486859

Shalom
God Bless

 

[mercytruth]

Muhammed got his Christology from a heretical sect of Jewish-Christians who called themselves the Ebionites. They did not believe in the divinity of Christ, they considered Paul to be an apostate, and they only accept the gospel of Matthew-edited.

I think most learned Muslims assume that Khadija’s cousin, Waraja ibn Nawfal had been reading/writing from the Ebionite text of Matthew’s gospel which was written in Hebrew. There is one problem with that, the Ebionites did not believe in the Virgin birth of Jesus and Muslims do believe. On the other hand, the Ebionites did not believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.

This is why the pseudo-gospel of Matthew which was written by a gnostic sect, and not by the Ebionites may have some significance. This pseudo-gospel of Matthew re-iterates the Virgin birth of Jesus, and also includes two or three childhood stories of Jesus that are very similar to the two or three childhood stories of Isa found in the Quran.

The gnostic sect of Basildes taught that Simon the Cyrene was actually crucified, and not Jesus Christ. Possibly, this is why the Quran states that it ‘appeared as if Isa was crucified’.

books.google.com/books?id=2ldCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA285&lpg=PA285&dq=Basildes+and+Simon&safe=strict&source=bl&ots=9IJFQBntuQ&sig=ZTdKGi_6admEOhGzL_9uS_VVh44&hl=en&sa=X&ei=u-hjUN7KMOj20gHmsIHACw&ved=0CEsQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Basildes%20and%20Simon&f=false

Regardless, it seems as though there be many influences in the revelations of the Quran.

God’s peace

micah

 

[mercytruth]

i have heard a Talk by Fr. Pacwa on this very same subject.

( Eg: { from talk} according to Islam Mary the mother of the islam Jesus she is sister of Moses and could Potentially be 1300+ years old, the letter o in other languages is an I in muslim language making the Jesus of hebrew/Christian tradition different name different person )

Intriguing…

this thread also kinda touches on that subject

• forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=486859

Shalom
God Bless

Fr. Pacwa is a Jesuit, I think, and since Jesuits are very learned, he would be a very good source.

Here is something to consider. Miriam is the sister of Moses in the Exodus account. Mary, the Virgin mother of Jesus is actually the same name as Miriam in Hebrew. In Arabic her name is pronounced Maryam.

Moses and Miriam are from the tribe of Levi. Mary’s cousin Elizabeth is from the tribe of Levi. Thus, the Quran could have confused Miriam, the sister of Moses who lived 1500 years previous, with Mary or Miriam, the Virgin mother of Jesus, she being the cousin of the Levite, Elizabeth.

God bless and shalom to you also

micah

 

[aragonjohn1]

Fr. Pacwa is a Jesuit, I think, and since Jesuits are very learned, he would be a very good source.

Here is something to consider. Miriam is the sister of Moses in the Exodus account. Mary, the Virgin mother of Jesus is actually the same name as Miriam in Hebrew. In Arabic her name is pronounced Maryam.

Moses and Miriam are from the tribe of Levi. Mary’s cousin Elizabeth is from the tribe of Levi. Thus, the Quran could have confused Miriam, the sister of Moses who lived 1500 years previous, with Mary or Miriam, the Virgin mother of Jesus, she being the cousin of the Levite, Elizabeth.

God bless and shalom to you also

micah

Thank you and thanks for the insight

God bless you on you’re journey

 

[Sam_777]

Does not this (Muslim for Jesus website) state that Waraka ibn Nawfal was the son of Khadija’s paternal uncle, making them actual cousins? Waraka ibn Nawfal refers to Muhammad as his ‘nephew’, so perhaps one is not to take that literally.

He is a far relative to them not a direct relative, he has one far relative (Qusay) crossed with Muhammed as shown below.

**Muhammed Arabic name: **محمد بن عبد الله بن عبد المطلب بن هاشم بن عبد مناف بن قصي
**Muhammed English name: **Muhammed son of Abdulah son of Abdmutalib son of Hashem son of Abdmanaf son of Qusay.

**Waraka Arabic Name: **ورقة بن نوفل بن أسد بن عبدالعزى بن قصي
**Waraka English Name: **Waraka son of Nufal son of Asad son of Abdalazi son of Qusay.

 

[mercytruth]

He is a far relative to them not a direct relative, he has one far relative (Qusay) crossed with Muhammed as shown below.

**Muhammed Arabic name: **محمد بن عبد الله بن عبد المطلب بن هاشم بن عبد مناف بن قصي
**Muhammed English name: **Muhammed son of Abdulah son of Abdmutalib son of Hashem son of Abdmanaf son of Qusay.

**Waraka Arabic Name: **ورقة بن نوفل بن أسد بن عبدالعزى بن قصي
**Waraka English Name: **Waraka son of Nufal son of Asad son of Abdalazi son of Qusay.

What about Khadija, the wife of Muhammad? Was not Waraka the first cousin of Khadija, he being the son of Khadija’s uncle on her father’s side?

God’s peace

micah

 

[Sam_777]

What about Khadija, the wife of Muhammad? Was not Waraka the first cousin of Khadija, he being the son of Khadija’s uncle on her father’s side?

God’s peace

micah

Khadija authentic name in most Arabic references is: خديجة بنت خويلد القرشية (English: Khadija daughter of Kuwaileed and Alqurisheyah as a family name) which does not indicated authentic connection to Waraka, however, some other references point that her grandfather is Asad which has across reference with Waraka, so you have two opinions on that matter.

 

[GodHeals]

Any thoughts?
orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx
St. John of Damascus’s Critique of Islam

 

[MartinJordan]

Any thoughts?
orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx
St. John of Damascus’s Critique of Islam

Definitely a great read for me. Calling a spade a spade. Perfect!

MJ

 

[GodHeals]

I am glad that you enjoyed it MJ!

The most interesting thing is that St. John was of the time period of Mohammed and was able to articulate his thoughts during that period.

Anyone know the Catholic position regarding the Ishmaelite’s religion being or not being the forerunner of present day Islam (Mohammed)?

It seems interesting that Islam says we have a “corrupt” bible, but yet, why would it be even considered the “corrupt” Word of God if it isn’t even from their lineage back to Abraham? Shouldn’t they have their own “bible” from the Ishmaelites… there obviously isn’t one.

I don’ think there is an unbroken historical continuity from the Ishmaelites Abrahamic religion to present day Islam. Maybe only the culture and various people groups were passed down as descendants.

Any thoughts?

Genesis 17:19-21

New International Version (NIV)

Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year.”