Muslims: Did Muhammad Actually Exist?

[arabic_catholic]

I did, Thanks.

Read the article, Thanks Again.

Many say many foolish things, fact of life.

Intersting, first you assume he “has” appeared, and next you assume he “is a prophet”. Thats your burden of proof. We are trying to determine “if” in fact he appeared.

Whats a prophet of Islam look like, please enlighten us If you believe Mohammad was a prophet “AMEN” not the point of the OP or my concern.

“its a 7th century Greek Christian anti-Jewish polemical tract set in Carthage in 634 but written in Palestine “sometime” between 634 and 640” Its written in past-present.

My point is this…

“What is significant here is the possibility that Jews and Arabs (Saracens) seem to be allied together during the time of the conquest of Palestine and even for a short time after”

“This document is plausibly one of the most archaic elements of the Islamic tradition, its agreement with the earliest external accounts of the origins of Islam is highly significant”

“To be sure, the picture given in the Doctrina Iacobi seems garbled, and many of its details disagree with the traditional account (for example, in seeming to describe the prophet as leading the armies of the Saracens himself). … Yet one could hardly expect a Byzantine source from this early and turbulent period to get all the details right. Even later, most Byzantine sources displayed gross misunderstanding of matters Islamic, just as Muslim sources generally did of matters Byzantine.” – Colin Wells.

You have proof when Mohammed died? I’m looking at “only” his existence in external “proof”. Not the accuracy of the events described, not how Christians. Muslims or Jews feel about him, or how events changed by those describing the accounted events[this is common]. Or how Islam views him today.

In other words existing works from the period of his life from an external source which indicate he “existed” only. How valid the actual work is yet another story, its appears to be “authentic” being the point.

Peace

first , you said to me ‘’ If you believe Mohammad was a prophet “AMEN” not the point of the OP or my concern. ‘’

what are trying to say ? I am confused by your writing ,are you trying to say I am a muslim ?or what ? if you did mean that , I am sure I am wasting my time with you. because I am far away from what you just posted, and forgive me for my language , but if that’s what you mean that is disgusting claim against me and I will not accept it nor accept the mindset behind it.

you have not response to a thing of the things I have said ?!! in fact , you repeat points that I agree on , I am not saying muhammad didn’t exist , go to my first comment and you will see this , I am saying , we know very little about muhammad , and what we know disagree with the islamic account which was wrtten later.

I said to you do you think the prophet of islam talked about the keys of paradise ? did the prophet claim the coming of the Jewish messiah ? and did islam and muhammad were to friendly to the jews at that time ?, it’s important because just because there was mention of a prophet doesn’t make him muhammad , there are many , but let’s say he is the one , it’s seems from the many document we get that it totally differ from the islamic one , this document you are listing is important in many ways .first , it disagree with the muslim account , second , it agree with other accounts at the time , such as the testimony of the Armenian Bishop Sebeos , who claim that muhammad led an army of 12,000 jews! , as I said the prophet is alive even Historian tom holland in his new book makes this point when he comment on the document .

 

[arabic_catholic]

Sainthood doesn’t make your historical opinions any more authoritative.

I think there are valid questions to be raised about the “standard” account, though, just as the questions raised by historical critics about the Gospels are in principle valid. The major difference is that Christian scholars have taken the revisionist accounts seriously. Muslims tend not to engage seriously with these kinds of challenges, and of course in the Muslim world (and even to some extent in the West, especially Europe) it’s not physically safe to be a revisionist. (In other words, many Muslims do “engage seriously,” but by violence rather than by rational argument!)

Edwin

exactly , more studies should be done on the history of islam so it can give us the clearest picture about islam and how it came into being .

 

[GaryTaylor]

first , you said to me ‘’ If you believe Mohammad was a prophet “AMEN” not the point of the OP or my concern. ‘’ .

Right

what are trying to say ? I am confused by your writing ,are you trying to say I am a muslim ?or what ? if you did mean that , I am sure I am wasting my time with you. because I am far away from what you just posted, and forgive me for my language , but if that’s what you mean that is disgusting claim against me and I will not accept it nor accept the mindset behind it. .

No thats no my claim though I understand somehow that became of question somewhere by someone without re-reading. I never question anyones Christianity. I may however question where one is coming from.

you have not response to a thing of the things I have said ?!! in fact , you repeat points that I agree on , I am not saying muhammad didn’t exist , go to my first comment and you will see this , I am saying , we know very little about muhammad , and what we know disagree with the islamic account which was wrtten later. .

I follow you, not of issue.

I said to you do you think the prophet of islam talked about the keys of paradise ? did the prophet claim the coming of the Jewish messiah ? and did islam and muhammad were to friendly to the jews at that time ?, it’s important because just because there was mention of a prophet doesn’t make him muhammad , there are many , but let’s say he is the one , it’s seems from the many document we get that it totally differ from the islamic one , this document you are listing is important in many ways .first , it disagree with the muslim account , second , it agree with other accounts at the time , such as the testimony of the Armenian Bishop Sebeos , who claim that muhammad led an army of 12,000 jews! , as I said the prophet is alive even Historian tom holland in his new book makes this point when he comment on the document .

Well some of the misunderstanding perhaps resides here. In the quoted context the prophet states by the “author” he [Mohammed] held the Keys to Paradise, if Mohammad in fact did state this I do not know, this is the claim the author is making, As to Bishop Sebeos good catch, this is who I was trying to recall and couldn’t by name. This is a good point actually which I didn’t expand on because I couldn’t remember the name just an Armenian Bishop. But doesn’t he provide another external historic account?

However as to the article I used its reference to the external historic existence of it only. Not to defend its points or if I agree or disagree with them. Again actually from the view of Christianity and being Arab I’m interested in your take on all this as to providing proof of actual existence against the arguement of Spencer. However not to debate the validity of what was stated in the article of work I posted. In other words I believe the article I posted does give credit to the reality of Mohammed. Though as I also said, assuming this work is actual in authenticity and dating and can be verified as such which I believe it may be. Right though my agreement of what is actually stated in the article isn’t of issue. Often we find in further research as with the Letter at St Catherines in Egypt with Mohammeds palm and ring print, while its appears from the on-set to also give an authentic account, when further researched we find we are dealing with a 15th century copy supposed of an original.

Follow me?

 

[arabic_catholic]

Right

No thats no my claim though I understand somehow that became of question somewhere by someone without re-reading. I never question anyones Christianity. I may however question where one is coming from.

I follow you, not of issue.

Well some of the misunderstanding perhaps resides here. In the quoted context the prophet states by the “author” he [Mohammed] held the Keys to Paradise, if Mohammad in fact did state this I do not know, this is the claim the author is making, As to Bishop Sebeos good catch, this is who I was trying to recall and couldn’t by name. This is a good point actually which I didn’t expand on because I couldn’t remember the name just an Armenian Bishop. But doesn’t he provide another external historic account?

However as to the article I used its reference to the external historic existence of it only. Not to defend its points or if I agree or disagree with them. Again actually from the view of Christianity and being Arab I’m interested in your take on all this as to providing proof of actual existence against the arguement of Spencer. However not to debate the validity of what was stated in the article of work I posted. In other words I believe the article I posted does give credit to the reality of Mohammed. Though as I also said, assuming this work is actual in authenticity and dating and can be verified as such which I believe it may be. Right though my agreement of what is actually stated in the article isn’t of issue. Often we find in further research as with the Letter at St Catherines in Egypt with Mohammeds palm and ring print, while its appears from the on-set to also give an authentic account, when further researched we find we are dealing with a 15th century copy supposed of an original.

Follow me?

First , I want to comment on what did you mean by the first statement , I gave your post to an american friend , and he to came to the same conclusion that you are accusing me some how of believing in the prophethood of muhammad , so I want to know what did you mean by it if you are not saying that.

Second , you are referring to the article , and I am referring to the document(doctrina jacobi) . what I mean is , I have in front of me the book of Robert G. Hoyland who is putting the original document in his 800 page book(seeing islam as others saw it) . what you are doing is going to an article written by author and his comment on the document and confusing it the commentary] with the original document , so I didn’t read the article , I read the document because I have it in front of me once you start talking about it and didn’t check the article. so when people say this is muhammad or because it mention a prophet , therefore the traditional islamic account is reliable, is far from truth . and all what I am saying is we need rational disscusion about the history of islam , and not doing scholarship on islam rather then practicing muslim scholarship .

The point that I am trying to say , that those sources are talking about a different muhamamd , a muhammad that more friendly to the jews and using claims like having the keys of the paradise, where there is no such thing in the later islamic tradition !

even spencer didn’t say muhammad didn’t exist , he said that muhammad is like robin hood , robin might existed and was a real person but not in the legendary robin hood we heard about him , and muhammad might exist , but the stories about him is robin hood like . not a real historical data

after reading the book , I end up with more questions than answers. the book purpose is to raise skepticism about the sources of islam . and Spencer did very good job in it .and I give him credit for it . and he was making his argument based on heavy work of western historian from the 19th century through the 20th century .

 

[DeSanto]

first , you said to me ‘’ If you believe Mohammad was a prophet “AMEN” not the point of the OP or my concern. ‘’ .

May I ask what are we referring to when we say OP?

Also, I cannot speak for anyone else but it seems without being more educated on the history of Islam and the beliefs of muslims today, we should be careful not to jump to any conclusions regarding the questions being raised. I think the reason some questions are directed toward you is that you probably have more first hand knowledge that you can share with us in learning more about what Muslims really do believe. Especially since there is so much misinformation out there. I think you would have great insight in this area being a self proclaimed ex-Muslim. So, if you could, please try to lay out a basic foundation for us to begin building upon like, what is the Islamic Theory on his existence? And I always wondered what, if any, prophecies made by Mohammed came to fruition.
Basically, I would like to know what the counter argument is coming from someone with the inside tract.

 

[jakasaki]

May I ask what are we referring to when we say OP?

.

OP = Original Post or Original Poster

 

[GaryTaylor]

first , you said to me ‘’ If you believe Mohammad was a prophet “AMEN” not the point of the OP or my concern. ‘’ what are trying to say ?

“find out about the prophet who has appeared” Is the statement by you which I responded to with “If you believe Mohammad was a prophet “AMEN” not the point of the OP or my concern.”

Looking at the actual content/context of what is stated in the article isn’t my concern. My concern is "was the article in fact written when it suggests, and is it in fact authentic from this period of a couple years after Mohammed. Has this been verified?

When the work refers to Prophet, Keys, or when its states Prophets don’t carry swords etc. are not points of contention for me. And it certainly is no refection on your faith. Again as I stated my concern is "was the article in fact written when it suggests, and is it in fact authentic from this period of a couple years after Mohammed.

Whats you view on that?

you have not response to a thing of the things I have said ?!! in fact , you repeat points that I agree on , I am not saying muhammad didn’t exist , go to my first comment and you will see this , I am saying , we know very little about muhammad , and what we know disagree with the islamic account which was wrtten later. .

I follow you, yes there are points we agree on for sure. I’m seeking the physical, correctly dated, outside evidence of Mohammads existence. Follow where I’m coming from? I agee we know little about him. If by chance we find more truth in the process thats fine. I agree with your last sentence above also. Yet my concern is "was the article in fact written when it suggests, and is it in fact authentic from this period of a couple years after Mohammed. This is the what I’m looking for with any piece of historic evidence in relation to outside source’s with this topic. Then the context/content can be looked at closer with other surrounding historic data.which may or may not give more meaning to it, and may validate a specific event or point.

In other words lets take the Bible for example, we can read the story of the Assyrians, the prophets Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Micah, Nahum, Zephaniah and Zechariah all refer to Assyria. Yet from the two sides of history of the Israelites then the recorded history of the Assyrians, while both validate history, both have a different “spin” on the history. However, the first priority it to validate history. Two transmissions of history with a twist isn’t uncommon. This is why I’m not concerned with the above context/content. Its not a reflection of your faith whatsoever.

I said to you do you think the prophet of islam talked about the keys of paradise ? did the prophet claim the coming of the Jewish messiah ? and did islam and muhammad were to friendly to the jews at that time ?, it’s important because just because there was mention of a prophet doesn’t make him muhammad , there are many , but let’s say he is the one , it’s seems from the many document we get that it totally differ from the islamic one , this document you are listing is important in many ways .first , it disagree with the muslim account , second , it agree with other accounts at the time , such as the testimony of the Armenian Bishop Sebeos , who claim that muhammad led an army of 12,000 jews! , as I said the prophet is alive even Historian tom holland in his new book makes this point when he comment on the document .

I do not know for “fact” from the existing evidence if Mohammad even existed for sure, * how could I possibly know if he talked about “the Keys”? If an outside source states Mohammed in fact did, yet heard this from a third party, than thats called “hear-say”. In another term its just words that may have been stated to promote the authors point. If they actually were stated we do not know. So the task becomes to view all this objectively IMHO, not to be caught on a sentence about Heaven, Prophet, False Prophet etc. Unless you see something else here I am missing which relates to pure historic fact?

Armenian Bishop Sebeos is a point I mentioned to you I am interested in, but again not what he stated about 12,000 Jews. Only the actual authenticity of this work. Does it in fact exist from a relevant period of Mohammads life? Is it authentic, could it be read on-line?

Once we can establish a work is authentic, then IMHO whats being stated may or may not take on more significance in how its relates to other events of that same period. There may be facts which coincide as I mentioned with the Bible, be it they may tell a slightly different view of the event. Follow where I’m coming from?

I would like to believe that since we are talking 600-700-AD one would think there would be ample evidence. Doesn’t seem to be the case, and often we find what does exist originates from another period, or is a supposed copy of the original etc.*

 

[josie_L]

This is my understanding.

Some Islamophobes here should read this article from the Fordham University website. It is a quote from Muhammad, Prophet and Statesman by William Montgomery Watt. Watt was a noted orientalist and priest in the Scottish Episcopal Church.

Islamophobes???

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

Islamophobes???

Islamophobia on Wikipedia

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

May I ask what are we referring to when we say OP?

Also, I cannot speak for anyone else but it seems without being more educated on the history of Islam and the beliefs of muslims today, we should be careful not to jump to any conclusions regarding the questions being raised. I think the reason some questions are directed toward you is that you probably have more first hand knowledge that you can share with us in learning more about what Muslims really do believe. Especially since there is so much misinformation out there. I think you would have great insight in this area being a self proclaimed ex-Muslim. So, if you could, please try to lay out a basic foundation for us to begin building upon like, what is the Islamic Theory on his existence? And I always wondered what, if any, prophecies made by Mohammed came to fruition.
Basically, I would like to know what the counter argument is coming from someone with the inside tract.

The “OP” in this case would be me. The person who made the original post of this thread.

I originally posted after listening to a Catholic Answers podcast that hosted a man, whose name escapes me at the moment, that claims to have done tremendous research and has come to the conclusion that there is a lack of evidence for Muhammad’s existence. I idea that he may not have existed was so shocking to me, I wanted to know what Muslims thought about the idea.

However, within the posting here, someone has brought to light a Catholic Saint who wrote about the person Muhammad as the founder of Islam within a couple centuries of Muhammad’s death - which means the Saint’s parents or grandparents would have been living during the time Muhammad lived. I now am once again confident and reassured that Muhammad was a true person.

As far as prophecies made by Muhammad, I’m not personally aware of any. The Imam I’ve met with in the past to inquire about Islam straight from a Muslim source has told me that the “miracle” of Muhammad is the miracle of the Qur’an. And after studying the miracles of the Qur’an, I can say that the contents & format of the Qur’an are truly miraculous and it is reported have come directly from an Angel to Muhammad who memorized it and then spoke it to his followers & only much later was it written down.

I, being a Christian, just have a suspision that the Angel who did speak the Qur’an to Muhammad was a fallen angel aka a demon. Angels & demons know all the information and know how to use language to make the most amazing poetry and would have been able to produce the truly miraculous Qur’an. Science has only recently begun to prove the Qur’an for example the stages of development of babies still in the womb and the oceans within oceans. If I didn’t believe it to be of a demonic source, I’d have to because Muslim because the Qur’an is proven to be not of human origin.

 

[DeSanto]

OP = Original Post or Original Poster

of course!! I have been in another thread talking about the IC and PV of the BVM. Lots of abbr. , been wearing off on me I guess.

 

[DeSanto]

The “OP” in this case would be me. The person who made the original post of this thread.

I originally posted after listening to a Catholic Answers podcast that hosted a man, whose name escapes me at the moment, that claims to have done tremendous research and has come to the conclusion that there is a lack of evidence for Muhammad’s existence. I idea that he may not have existed was so shocking to me, I wanted to know what Muslims thought about the idea.

However, within the posting here, someone has brought to light a Catholic Saint who wrote about the person Muhammad as the founder of Islam within a couple centuries of Muhammad’s death - which means the Saint’s parents or grandparents would have been living during the time Muhammad lived. I now am once again confident and reassured that Muhammad was a true person.

I never had considered his exsistence, just never crossed my mind. Honestly, at this point, unless there is irrefutable evidence, it doesn’t really matter. There really are more important discussions to be had. Although, it is a very intriguing subject to explore.

As far as prophecies made by Muhammad, I’m not personally aware of any. The Imam I’ve met with in the past to inquire about Islam straight from a Muslim source has told me that the “miracle” of Muhammad is the miracle of the Qur’an. And after studying the miracles of the Qur’an, I can say that the contents & format of the Qur’an are truly miraculous and it is reported have come directly from an Angel to Muhammad who memorized it and then spoke it to his followers & only much later was it written down.

**I don’t know anything about the format of the Quran being a miracle but, I kind of get what your saying about it being some kind of miracle that an uneducated man could come up with something so elaborate on his own. Not sure if I buy it though, and the fact that it wasn’t written down until much later, handed down by word of mouth further discounts the accuracy of it. I also agree about the so called “angel”. This angel caused fear and violent seizures. The angels we read of always tend to comfort and releave one of their fear when the appear. And of course, we know Satan can appear as an angel of light. That is why we are taught to judge by ones fruit. A prophet should prophecise something, no? And to judge a prophet is to see if his prophecies were fruitful. A miracle does not constitute prophecy. Also, if we take the “religion” of Islam and judge it by it’s fruit, well…don’t get me started.
**
I, being a Christian, just have a suspision that the Angel who did speak the Qur’an to Muhammad was a fallen angel aka a demon. Angels & demons know all the information and know how to use language to make the most amazing poetry and would have been able to produce the truly miraculous Qur’an. Science has only recently begun to prove the Qur’an for example the stages of development of babies still in the womb and the oceans within oceans.

Not sure what your saying science has proven but, I do know science has disproven many thing Muslims refuse to even believe to this day such as; the moon splitting in two, how the flesh and bone develop in the womb (has been disproven) and I believe they say the sun revolves around the earth. Those are just a few examples, I would have to research further and I don’t believe it pertains to the issue in this thread anyway.

If I didn’t believe it to be of a demonic source, I’d have to because Muslim because the Qur’an is proven to be not of human origin.

.
**
Could I get some links on that? proof that the Quran is not of human origin?
I still must be convinced of that. It seems more to me to be a take from the bible with a few tweaks to adhere to ones motives at the time.

My post was directed toward Arabic Catholic because I wanted to get the counter argument and see what misinformation I have been exposed to in my studies and help me gain more knowledge of the foundation of Islam from a direct source. I don’t know any imams**

 

[josie_L]

Islamophobia on Wikipedia

Forgive me, but throwing about the term “Islamophobe” (hence the ???) because people may question the veracity of Mohammed’s existence does not an Islamophobe make. You might want to withhold/revise your judgment of other people’s motives when posting.

p.s. Thank you.

 

[SgtSchultz]

No, Muslims believe that Muhammad traveled through the seven heavens from Mecca to Jerusalem. That is why Jerusalem is important to Muslims. There is no doubt as to his burial place. There is no evidence that Muhammad ever actually traveled to Jerusalem (though, having been a caravaner, he may well have gone as far north as Palestine.)

Jerusalem is only important to Muslims because there are Jews living there. They don’t like the fact that “sons of apes and pigs” are living on land that had been conquered and subdued by Allah and made part of Dar Al Islam. This would be like having a giant synagogue across the street from Hitler’s Reichchancellery. Other than that, Jerusalem has never been of interest to Muslims.

But it makes me wonder: If there’s validity to the argument how come we have not heard it raised before now?

You answered your own question here:

It was an interesting show, based on a premise that has been explored by other scholars in the past, some of whom met very hasty and violent ends.

Islam doesn’t exactly tolerate people who question it, leave it, or say things about it that portray it in a negative light. Hence the reason people like Spencer are under constant threat of death

 

[SgtSchultz]

Like I said -

The hadith behind the so called poisoning is suspicious.

This Mohamad killed this woman’s family and her clan and now she’s cooking his victory meal.

How’s that suspicious? It sounds like God giving Mohammed his just desserts!

 

[josie_L]

The “OP” in this case would be me. The person who made the original post of this thread.

I originally posted after listening to a Catholic Answers podcast that hosted a man, whose name escapes me at the moment, that claims to have done tremendous research and has come to the conclusion that there is a lack of evidence for Muhammad’s existence. I idea that he may not have existed was so shocking to me, I wanted to know what Muslims thought about the idea.

However, within the posting here, someone has brought to light a Catholic Saint who wrote about the person Muhammad as the founder of Islam within a couple centuries of Muhammad’s death - which means the Saint’s parents or grandparents would have been living during the time Muhammad lived. I now am once again confident and reassured that Muhammad was a true person.

As far as prophecies made by Muhammad, I’m not personally aware of any. The Imam I’ve met with in the past to inquire about Islam straight from a Muslim source has told me that the “miracle” of Muhammad is the miracle of the Qur’an. And after studying the miracles of the Qur’an, I can say that the contents & format of the Qur’an are truly miraculous and it is reported have come directly from an Angel to Muhammad who memorized it and then spoke it to his followers & only much later was it written down.

I, being a Christian, just have a suspision that the Angel who did speak the Qur’an to Muhammad was a fallen angel aka a demon. Angels & demons know all the information and know how to use language to make the most amazing poetry and would have been able to produce the truly miraculous Qur’an. Science has only recently begun to prove the Qur’an for example the stages of development of babies still in the womb and the oceans within oceans. If I didn’t believe it to be of a demonic source, I’d have to because Muslim because the Qur’an is proven to be not of human origin.

Which Saint would that be, as I am part way to reading Robert Spencer’s newest book on Mohammed (if you want an update or summary of what I have read, I can try giving you an account tomorrow or the day after)?

p.s. According to the hadiths, the angel “Gabriel” who came to Mohammed was, if I remember correctly, violent in manner towards Mohammed, in fact, Mohammed contemplated suicide after his encounter (read Spencer’s book “The Truth about Mohammed”).

p.p.s. I do not know of which Saint you refer to, however, the paucity of historical sources about Mohammed (after his death) is somewhat strange in light of the many conquests early on in Islam. Recollect that Josephus (a Jew) and a few Romans wrote about Jesus within the first century of his passing (even though Christianity did not explode in the same like manner as Islam).

 

[DeSanto]

I do certainly hear a tad bit of resentment, for the lack of a better word, toward Islam in these post. I have to catch myself sometimes. I don’t want to generalize all Muslims but it is hard to understand it all, to see it from my perspective it really does look like an oppressive and archaic scheme to control and dominate. Justifying violence, deceit, and murder as Gods will is so out there in my view. It’s kind of hard not to be phobic about it when you know you are a target of this anger and violence and there are so many people that are brainwashed or forced into carrying out this mission: world domination. Yes Christians are to spread the Word, but our Lord does not want to force us to love Him. For me, I believe only love can conquer. Our main mission here, as Christians, can only be one thing…to love our enemies. Yes there is fear, but we must love our enemies and prepare for persecution which is inevitable and put all our trust in the Lord. Our Lord said if they persecuted Him, surely they will persecute us. We must stand firm in the truth. There can only be one Truth.

Sorry for straying off the subject, perhaps I should search for a different thread.

ps…don’t underestimate the power of prayer!!!

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

.
**
Could I get some links on that? proof that the Quran is not of human origin?
I still must be convinced of that. It seems more to me to be a take from the bible with a few tweaks to adhere to ones motives at the time.

My post was directed toward Arabic Catholic because I wanted to get the counter argument and see what misinformation I have been exposed to in my studies and help me gain more knowledge of the foundation of Islam from a direct source. I don’t know any imams**

You could look up “miracles of the Qur’an” on You Tube & on Google. Another good, authentically Muslim, source on Islam & the Qur’an would be the Deen Show.

Like here’s one link: youtube.com/watch?v=pcmAbkZwRRI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

For an Imam, just call the local mosque. That’s what I did. There are more mosques around than I thought.

A link to a mosque finder islamicfinder.org/phone/home.php

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

Which Saint would that be, as I am part way to reading Robert Spencer’s newest book on Mohammed (if you want an update or summary of what I have read, I can try giving you an account tomorrow or the day after)?

p.s. According to the hadiths, the angel “Gabriel” who came to Mohammed was, if I remember correctly, violent in manner towards Mohammed, in fact, Mohammed contemplated suicide after his encounter (read Spencer’s book “The Truth about Mohammed”).

p.p.s. I do not know of which Saint you refer to, however, the paucity of historical sources about Mohammed (after his death) is somewhat strange in light of the many conquests early on in Islam. Recollect that Josephus (a Jew) and a few Romans wrote about Jesus within the first century of his passing (even though Christianity did not explode in the same like manner as Islam).

St. John of Damascus. Jakasaki provided this link earlier in this thread: orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

 

[arabic_catholic]

May I ask what are we referring to when we say OP?

Also, I cannot speak for anyone else but it seems without being more educated on the history of Islam and the beliefs of muslims today, we should be careful not to jump to any conclusions regarding the questions being raised. I think the reason some questions are directed toward you is that you probably have more first hand knowledge that you can share with us in learning more about what Muslims really do believe. Especially since there is so much misinformation out there. I think you would have great insight in this area being a self proclaimed ex-Muslim. So, if you could, please try to lay out a basic foundation for us to begin building upon like, what is the Islamic Theory on his existence? And I always wondered what, if any, prophecies made by Mohammed came to fruition.
Basically, I would like to know what the counter argument is coming from someone with the inside tract.

ok so the islamic version of story was written down by ibn ishaq 125 years after the death of muhammad , even the work itself is lost , but people like al waqdi and ibn hisam in the 800s and al tabri in the 900s save for us the work of ibn ishaq , although they contain many variant

so what we do have is works written very late 200 years gap between them and the original story !

many western doubt the authenticity of the works of ibn ishaq , and many even went further to doubt that mecca was a trade center in 7th century arabia !! ( see the works of patricia crone)

now interestingly enough , the talmud and the jewish rabbi had a talmudic center where they make a line of jewish rabbis going back to moses saving the true jewish teaching , this center was 30 mile away from places where hadith (the saying of the prophet ) start to appear , even one rabbi said that the persians enter islam but they never abndon their religion , in other words they bring it with them inside islam , therefore you see the 5 prayers a day , and the toothbrush , and other persins practices which were adopted as teaching of the prophet enter inside islam since the 700s AD .

Then you have the quran which we have few fragment of it , which goes to the 7th century (The Dome of the Rock inscription 690s ) which they themselves differ then the connonical text in some verses , you have even in islamic tradition claims by al hajaj and abdulmalik bin marwan that they fixed and put the quran together ! so now we have two claims about who put the quran together Uthman (the third successor of muhammad 650) or Abdulmalik (690?) ? , then the debate that is the quran the eternal word of god or the created was ended in the 800s !! and we have bans on many different readings , small amount of them came to us through quotations . and they differ with the canonical text

so my criticism is that islam was not establish as a religion the way you think about it , until the late 8 /9th century . in fact , we can see different islam if we study the 7th century islam. we know nothing about muhammad life , we only now he was a trader , and many historian claim that the islamic setting of the story is not mecca at all !! quran 37:133-138

I saw some people claiming that the quran is from non -human source ! this is pure propganda ! Scholars on Koran now have proven that the quran have many influnce from Syriac . look for the book of (The Syro-Aramyic readings of the koran) .

in fact Spencer shows in his book that Surat al qader ( sura 97 ) when reading it in Syriac , is talking about Jesus birth ! all of this is not wishful thinking , its based on the work of Christopher luxenberg and expert on syriac and Arabic .

as for the Scientific describes , this is another islamic propaganda which proven to be false

watch these videos from Scientist who debunk the islamic claims! one of them was even quoted by muslim apologist and said to affirm that the quran is divine , and he himself expose the lies of muslim against him!

youtube.com/watch?v=VKa61I0_8e8&feature=my_liked_videos&list=LLSDZ8T3C0ddASBfUgPcUVhQ

youtube.com/watch?v=nJ7ph0tNeuo&list=FLSDZ8T3C0ddASBfUgPcUVhQ&index=17&feature=plpp_video