Muslims: Did Muhammad Actually Exist?

[arabic_catholic]

“find out about the prophet who has appeared” Is the statement by you which I responded to with “If you believe Mohammad was a prophet “AMEN” not the point of the OP or my concern.”

Looking at the actual content/context of what is stated in the article isn’t my concern. My concern is "was the article in fact written when it suggests, and is it in fact authentic from this period of a couple years after Mohammed. Has this been verified?

When the work refers to Prophet, Keys, or when its states Prophets don’t carry swords etc. are not points of contention for me. And it certainly is no refection on your faith. Again as I stated my concern is "was the article in fact written when it suggests, and is it in fact authentic from this period of a couple years after Mohammed.

Whats you view on that?

I follow you, yes there are points we agree on for sure. I’m seeking the physical, correctly dated, outside evidence of Mohammads existence. Follow where I’m coming from? I agee we know little about him. If by chance we find more truth in the process thats fine. I agree with your last sentence above also. Yet my concern is "was the article in fact written when it suggests, and is it in fact authentic from this period of a couple years after Mohammed. This is the what I’m looking for with any piece of historic evidence in relation to outside source’s with this topic. Then the context/content can be looked at closer with other surrounding historic data.which may or may not give more meaning to it, and may validate a specific event or point.

In other words lets take the Bible for example, we can read the story of the Assyrians, the prophets Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Micah, Nahum, Zephaniah and Zechariah all refer to Assyria. Yet from the two sides of history of the Israelites then the recorded history of the Assyrians, while both validate history, both have a different “spin” on the history. However, the first priority it to validate history. Two transmissions of history with a twist isn’t uncommon. This is why I’m not concerned with the above context/content. Its not a reflection of your faith whatsoever.

I do not know for “fact” from the existing evidence if Mohammad even existed for sure, * how could I possibly know if he talked about “the Keys”? If an outside source states Mohammed in fact did, yet heard this from a third party, than thats called “hear-say”. In another term its just words that may have been stated to promote the authors point. If they actually were stated we do not know. So the task becomes to view all this objectively IMHO, not to be caught on a sentence about Heaven, Prophet, False Prophet etc. Unless you see something else here I am missing which relates to pure historic fact?

Armenian Bishop Sebeos is a point I mentioned to you I am interested in, but again not what he stated about 12,000 Jews. Only the actual authenticity of this work. Does it in fact exist from a relevant period of Mohammads life? Is it authentic, could it be read on-line?

Once we can establish a work is authentic, then IMHO whats being stated may or may not take on more significance in how its relates to other events of that same period. There may be facts which coincide as I mentioned with the Bible, be it they may tell a slightly different view of the event. Follow where I’m coming from?

I would like to believe that since we are talking 600-700-AD one would think there would be ample evidence. Doesn’t seem to be the case, and often we find what does exist originates from another period, or is a supposed copy of the original etc.*

read my last response , you will see where my argument is , I am busy now , but if you wanted any first islamic century quotation ask me about them , you can see even my quotation in

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9515990&postcount=73

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9519441&postcount=81

and see the big picture of my criticism on the quran , islamic history.

I might come back later to comment on what you said , but what forced me to comment , is that people are advertising directly /indirectly islamic propaganda which were proven to be false in this thread !

 

[DeSanto]

ok so the islamic version of story was written down by ibn ishaq 125 years after the death of muhammad , even the work itself is lost , but people like al waqdi and ibn hisam in the 800s and al tabri in the 900s save for us the work of ibn ishaq , although they contain many variant

so what we do have is works written very late 200 years gap between them and the original story !

many western doubt the authenticity of the works of ibn ishaq , and many even went further to doubt that mecca was a trade center in 7th century arabia !! ( see the works of patricia crone)

now interestingly enough , the talmud and the jewish rabbi had a talmudic center where they make a line of jewish rabbis going back to moses saving the true jewish teaching , this center was 30 mile away from places where hadith (the saying of the prophet ) start to appear , even one rabbi said that the persians enter islam but they never abndon their religion , in other words they bring it with them inside islam , therefore you see the 5 prayers a day , and the toothbrush , and other persins practices which were adopted as teaching of the prophet enter inside islam since the 700s AD .

Isn’t one of the biggest claims Muslims will make is that their Quran has never been changed or corrupted?

Then you have the quran which we have few fragment of it , which goes to the 7th century (The Dome of the Rock inscription 690s ) which they themselves differ then the connonical text in some verses , you have even in islamic tradition claims by al hajaj and abdulmalik bin marwan that they fixed and put the quran together ! so now we have two claims about who put the quran together Uthman (the third successor of muhammad 650) or Abdulmalik (690?) ? , then the debate that is the quran the eternal word of god or the created was ended in the 800s !! and we have bans on many different readings , small amount of them came to us through quotations . and they differ with the canonical text

…and that this Uthman, I believe he was a king, was he not, ordered to have all originals destroyed…hence my earlier post (the original burning of the Quran).

so my criticism is that islam was not establish as a religion the way you think about it , until the late 8 /9th century . in fact , we can see different islam if we study the 7th century islam. we know nothing about muhammad life , we only now he was a trader , and many historian claim that the islamic setting of the story is not mecca at all !! quran 37:133-138

I saw some people claiming that the quran is from non -human source ! this is pure propganda ! Scholars on Koran now have proven that the quran have many influnce from Syriac . look for the book of (The Syro-Aramyic readings of the koran) .

**I totally agree, I have viewed the you tube videos on the miracles of islam in the past, I instantly saw contradictions and was not convinced at all. The only one that confused me was about the mathematical number that is like supposedly some infinite number or something that like p(name removed by moderator)oints Mecca and other other sorts of miraculous stuff. And I have seen the counter arguments made by scientist that debunk basically any so call “miracle” in the Quran. But, I also keep in mind when I read these things that even christians have trouble with science at times ie creationist so I try to keep an open mind. At some point faith has to play a role. A willingness to admit there are some things that cannot be explained or understood.

One question remains…did Mohammed prophecise anything? What constitutes the title of “Prophet”?

Thank you for your time, I will check out your links!**

in fact Spencer shows in his book that Surat al qader ( sura 97 ) when reading it in Syriac , is talking about Jesus birth ! all of this is not wishful thinking , its based on the work of Christopher luxenberg and expert on syriac and Arabic .

as for the Scientific describes , this is another islamic propaganda which proven to be false

watch these videos from Scientist who debunk the islamic claims! one of them was even quoted by muslim apologist and said to affirm that the quran is divine , and he himself expose the lies of muslim against him!

youtube.com/watch?v=VKa61I0_8e8&feature=my_liked_videos&list=LLSDZ8T3C0ddASBfUgPcUVhQ

youtube.com/watch?v=nJ7ph0tNeuo&list=FLSDZ8T3C0ddASBfUgPcUVhQ&index=17&feature=plpp_video

 

[GaryTaylor]

I might come back later

Definately do if possible, This is of particular interest to me. "The Maronite Chronicles’’ written between 658 and 665 AD. I have to research this.

 

[jakasaki]

DeSanto:
Uthman was not a king - he was the 3rd caliph - successor to Mohamad

 

[DeSanto]

Uthman was not a king - he was the 3rd caliph - successor to Mohamad

ok, did he order all original documents to be destroyed? Isn’t that a good reason as to why none or very few can be found?

 

[DeSanto]

reply to self…apparently a prophet is not necessarily a predictor of past or future events. The actual definition of a prophet is one who has come into direct communication with God. A messenger of God, if you will. It is actually the Christians who later on developed the concept of testing prophets by the predictions they made.

So, it’s clear Mohammed is believed to have had some direct communication with Allah, whether it be through an angel or demon, with a message to share but, does anyone know if Mohammed is believed to have made any predictions within his message? Assuming he ever existed inthe first place, of course.

 

[arabic_catholic]

reply to self…apparently a prophet is not necessarily a predictor of past or future events. The actual definition of a prophet is one who has come into direct communication with God. A messenger of God, if you will. It is actually the Christians who later on developed the concept of testing prophets by the predictions they made.

So, it’s clear Mohammed is believed to have had some direct communication with Allah, whether it be through an angel or demon, with a message to share but, does anyone know if Mohammed is believed to have made any predictions within his message? Assuming he ever existed inthe first place, of course.

There are many prediction , but those are written 2 or three centuries after his death , some even 4 or 5 centuries !

so what we are missing is , did muhammad say those things ? or it was the product of it culture and time , for example , there is a saying that Jesus will come back in Damascus near the white minaret , well we know minaret is the place to call muslim to make prayer , so how can the prophet predict a thing , where there was no white minaret for a mosque built yet ? unless it was written down centuries later when there was a minaret and who ever wrote it thought it was a mosque at the time of muhammad !

a prediction that muslim will take over Constantinople , and as soon as they enter the city , they will see the Antichrist in the middle east . it’s clear that such hadith was product of it time (remember arabs made two siege on the city in the 7th and 8th century) .yet the Antichrist did not appear which led muslim apologist claim that the city will be conquered again ! another hadith predicting the islamic army will take over Constantinople and rome , it might be written in 9th century when arabs did indeed attack rome !

a famous prediction in the quran is about Gog and magog , and the hadith talk a lot about it , the prediction in the quran and hadith talk about there is a person in the name of the father of two horns (he wear two horns ) built a dam where gog and magog , people who make a lot of trouble , where kept behind it , and the prophet said that behind this dame there are millions (of not billions) of them kept since 100s of years . the problem is , historians now , know that this story was spread in the 500s and 600s by the roman empire ,and according to the legend the one who wear two horns is alexender the great , now put in your mind alexender the great wore two horns of the ancient egyptian god amun . yet the roman turned him to a servant of god . and this roman propaganda was spread , and muslim took the story and didn’t know it’s fabrication and propaganda , and the prophet predict that in the end of times , the dam will be destroyed and 100000s of gog and magog will spread destruction everywhere. poor muslims , didn’t know this story is only fabrication lol

so without a record goes to the 7th century , we don’t have any of his prediction ! all we have is what people written his saying centuries later , and many of them have contradiction between them .

 

[arabic_catholic]

Definately do if possible, This is of particular interest to me. "The Maronite Chronicles’’ written between 658 and 665 AD. I have to research this.

according to Robert Hoyland , it is 7th century document , and Tom Holland quote the story in his book ‘’ in the shadow of the sword ‘’ which means he took it too as 7th century document

youtube.com/watch?v=Qevax3e0_Fw&feature=my_liked_videos&list=LLSDZ8T3C0ddASBfUgPcUVhQ

this is a lecture from a scholar on islam , who confirms my doubt , you might want to look at it

 

[DeSanto]

There are many prediction , but those are written 2 or three centuries after his death , some even 4 or 5 centuries !

so what we are missing is , did muhammad say those things ? or it was the product of it culture and time , for example , there is a saying that Jesus will come back in Damascus near the white minaret , well we know minaret is the place to call muslim to make prayer , so how can the prophet predict a thing , where there was no white minaret for a mosque built yet ? unless it was written down centuries later when there was a minaret and who ever wrote it thought it was a mosque at the time of muhammad !

Very interesting. Strange how there is much talk about Damascus in the news today. Just saying. I want to research more about the islamic view of Jesus but, I am weary to get too deep in studies that I may be distracted or led astray. From what I have learned so far, this "Isa"is a stranger to me.

a prediction that muslim will take over Constantinople , and as soon as they enter the city , they will see the Antichrist in the middle east . it’s clear that such hadith was product of it time (remember arabs made two siege on the city in the 7th and 8th century) .yet the Antichrist did not appear which led muslim apologist claim that the city will be conquered again ! another hadith predicting the islamic army will take over Constantinople and rome , it might be written in 9th century when arabs did indeed attack rome !

I have also found out a little about this prediction and it was debunked not only by the date of the records but by the time line this take over was to happen. Apparently the prediction was very specific in the number of years this was all to take place which turned out to be quite a few years off.

a famous prediction in the quran is about Gog and magog , and the hadith talk a lot about it , the prediction in the quran and hadith talk about there is a person in the name of the father of two horns (he wear two horns ) built a dam where gog and magog , people who make a lot of trouble , where kept behind it , and the prophet said that behind this dame there are millions (of not billions) of them kept since 100s of years . the problem is , historians now , know that this story was spread in the 500s and 600s by the roman empire ,and according to the legend the one who wear two horns is alexender the great , now put in your mind alexender the great wore two horns of the ancient egyptian god amun . yet the roman turned him to a servant of god . and this roman propaganda was spread , and muslim took the story and didn’t know it’s fabrication and propaganda , and the prophet predict that in the end of times , the dam will be destroyed and 100000s of gog and magog will spread destruction everywhere. poor muslims , didn’t know this story is only fabrication lol

Also, very interesting, I will research more on this, keeping in mind your comments. Thank you for your insights.

so without a record goes to the 7th century , we don’t have any of his prediction ! all we have is what people written his saying centuries later , and many of them have contradiction between them .