Muslims: Do Christians Worship the One True God?

[Randy_Carson]

I am not liable for the actions of others. The same violent minority factions that exist in Islam today that believe in forced conversion, have also existed in Christianity and other religions throughout history. Neither you nor I are responsible for the actions of any of these groups.

No, we are not liable.

Still, 500 years have passed since the battle of Lepanto. One would think that humankind had progressed a bit since then.

Guess not.

 

[Servant19]

No, we are not liable.

Still, 500 years have passed since the battle of Lepanto. One would think that humankind had progressed a bit since then.

Guess not.

You seem to believe that the entirety of the populace in the Middle East has access to the learnings of the Battle of Lepanto.

Think again dear friend.

.

 

[Picky_Picky]

Yeah. I heard about that.

That explains all those gruesome YouTube videos of Methodists beheading Southern Baptists because they won’t baptize infants.

Lord’s Resistance Army? Too far away for you? Too young to remember the Ku Klux Klan?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Lord’s Resistance Army? Too far away for you? Too young to remember the Ku Klux Klan?

Young? When did I convert?

As for the fringe groups you referenced, mature Christians are usually in the forefront of those calling for action against these nuts because they know that extremism tarnishes the gospel. Or are YOU too young to recall that the Klan was opposed to Catholics as well as African-Americans? :sad_yes:

Moderate Muslims, however, seem eerily silent when terrorists strike, and to some degree, who can blame them? If some nut will slaughter a Danish cartoonist for a drawing of Mohammed, who knows what might happen to the Muslim who speaks out against ISIS and their ilk.

But if the majority Muslims ARE truly seeking peace at last, then why hasn’t some internal self-policing effort silenced the fanatics. Does silence mean consent?

 

[Picky_Picky]

Young? When did I convert?

As for the fringe groups you referenced, mature Christians are usually in the forefront of those calling for action against these nuts because they know that extremism tarnishes the gospel. Or are YOU too young to recall that the Klan was opposed to Catholics as well as African-Americans? :sad_yes:

Moderate Muslims, however, seem eerily silent when terrorists strike, and to some degree, who can blame them? If some nut will slaughter a Danish cartoonist for a drawing of Mohammed, who knows what might happen to the Muslim who speaks out against ISIS and their ilk.

But if the majority Muslims ARE truly seeking peace at last, then why hasn’t some internal self-policing effort silenced the fanatics. Does silence mean consent?

The fact that the KKK attacked Catholics was why I brought it up: a Protestant group attacking Catholics. The Lord’s Resistance Army is not a fringe group to those being massacred by it. And the argument that Muslims don’t condemn terrorists has been shown to be untrue so many times that it is becoming tiring to deal with it. But you might like to know that not only has ISIS, for instance, been condemned by Muslims (just because your newspaper doesn’t record it doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened) but Muslims are out there putting their lives on the line fighting the horrible thing.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The fact that the KKK attacked Catholics was why I brought it up: a Protestant group attacking Catholics. The Lord’s Resistance Army is not a fringe group to those being massacred by it. And the argument that Muslims don’t condemn terrorists has been shown to be untrue so many times that it is becoming tiring to deal with it. But you might like to know that not only has ISIS, for instance, been condemned by Muslims (just because your newspaper doesn’t record it doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened) but Muslims are out there putting their lives on the line fighting the horrible thing.

I have heard that ISIS has been condemned by groups that may be competing for the leadership role that ISIS seems to have taken over. That’s just internal squabbling. What I’m not convinced of is the idea that average non-Western Muslims are opposed to ISIS and al-Qaeda on theological grounds.

Why not have a “day of rage” *against *the terrorists who are hijacking Islam, for example? Wouldn’t it be great to see a CNN camera crew walking through the dusty streets of some Libyan or Yemeni village filming an anti-terrorism protest with the kind of passion usually reserved for condemning Israel or the US? That might cause a few folks to re-consider joining the ISIS bandwagon.

No, I won’t hold my breath, either.

 

[Picky_Picky]

I have heard that ISIS has been condemned by groups that may be competing for the leadership role that ISIS seems to have taken over. That’s just internal squabbling. What I’m not convinced of is the idea that average non-Western Muslims are opposed to ISIS and al-Qaeda on theological grounds.

Why not have a “day of rage” *against *the terrorists who are hijacking Islam, for example? Wouldn’t it be great to see a CNN camera crew walking through the dusty streets of some Libyan or Yemeni village filming an anti-terrorism protest with the kind of passion usually reserved for condemning Israel or the US? That might cause a few folks to re-consider joining the ISIS bandwagon.

No, I won’t hold my breath, either.

As I said, it’s tiring to go through this again and again, but here’s just one:

theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/05/isis-murder-alan-henning-british-muslim-community

 

[Picky_Picky]

A bit more

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2747644/The-Burn-ISIS-Flag-Challenge-Outraged-Muslims-flood-web-version-Ice-Bucket-Challenge-protest-against-Islamic-State-barbarism.html

 

[Randy_Carson]

As I said, it’s tiring to go through this again and again, but here’s just one:

theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/05/isis-murder-alan-henning-british-muslim-community

Thank you.

Yes, western Muslims have had the courage to speak out to varying degrees. No doubt our infidel governments offer them some measure of protection that emboldens them. Do you think they would say anything if we were all under Sharia law?

Again, are these kinds of sentiments being expressed in the Middle East and North Africa?

This is one case when I would LOVE to be wrong.

 

[Picky_Picky]

Thank you.

Yes, western Muslims have had the courage to speak out to varying degrees. No doubt our infidel governments offer them some measure of protection that emboldens them. Do you think they would say anything if we were all under Sharia law?

Again, are these kinds of sentiments being expressed in the Middle East and North Africa?

This is one case when I would LOVE to be wrong.

Well, you’ll see some stuff from the Middle East in my second ref above.

As to Sharia, I do know that prominent Muslim scholars say ISIS is breaking Islamic law:

businessinsider.com/muslims-using-sharia-law-against-isis-2014-10

 

[Servant19]

Thank you.

Yes, western Muslims have had the courage to speak out to varying degrees. No doubt our infidel governments offer them some measure of protection that emboldens them. Do you think they would say anything if we were all under Sharia law?

Again, are these kinds of sentiments being expressed in the Middle East and North Africa?

This is one case when I would LOVE to be wrong.

Would you speak out in a country where the KKK are essentially running the show without any police presence??

.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Would you speak out in a country where the KKK are essentially running the show without any police presence??

.

Did Ghandi speak out against the British in South in India?

Did Martin Luther King speak out against the discrimination against blacks in the US?

Did Nelson Mandela speak out against apartheid in South Africa?

Did Aung San Suu Kyi speak out against the military rulers of Burma?

And remember, according to some, peace-loving Muslims are in the MAJORITY.

 

[hiramross]

God did not make a mistake. The words of God are flawless. We believe that the distortions occurred when these words were being transmitted and recorded by the people (intentionally or unintentionally). The Prophets and apostles made no mistakes in preaching the words of God.

Many of your assumptions (that I believe are incorrect) can easily be applied to all other prophets and divine figures to show that they are false and liars.

Be assured that I am taking time to learn more about Christianity on this forum. But, that doesn’t mean I won’t defend my beliefs.

Another point we agree. God is flawless!!!

but by your logic you write (we would agree people are flawed); “the prophets and apostles made no mistakes in preaching the words of God”.

If your statement were true then still there would be no need to “rewrite” the history and word of God according to the scriptures…as your prophet did.

But if you say “**We believe that the distortions occurred when these words were being transmitted and recorded by the people (intentionally or unintentionally).” **Then that that would mean the prophecies laid out by the prophets and history by the scriptures were by voided by each successor by the grounds that the true message would have been “distorted”.

But again you say the prophets and apostles made no mistakes…

and about you defending your religion; sure I and many more understand for it is also part of who you are.

 

[TheLeastofThese]

Thank you.

Yes, western Muslims have had the courage to speak out to varying degrees. No doubt our infidel governments offer them some measure of protection that emboldens them. Do you think they would say anything if we were all under Sharia law?

Again, are these kinds of sentiments being expressed in the Middle East and North Africa?

This is one case when I would LOVE to be wrong.

Hi-

I read an article on About.com/Islam this week that directly relates to your post, Randy. I have included the link here to the letter written by top Sunni Muslim scholars from across the world to dispute ISIS claims and condemning the group’s actions in the strongest terms.

www.lettertobaghdadi.com

Quoting the article I read:

This unprecedented letter was written and signed by esteemed Muslim scholars from nearly 40 countries on six continents. The signatories are university professors and deans, authors, imams, scholars of Shari’ah law, and leaders of Islamic councils and organizations. From Egypt alone, signatories include the Grand Mufti and a former Grand Mufti, faculty from Al-Azhar University, and members of the Fatwa Council. There can be no doubt as to this group’s authority in matters of Islamic faith, law and practice – especially on a topic in which they sign their names in universal agreement.

islam.about.com/od/terrorism/fl/Islamic-Scholarsrsquo-Open-Letter-to-ISIS.htm

I hope this information helps clear up misconceptions regarding the world Muslim communities support for ISIS.

The Least of These

 

[hiramross]

Hi-

I read an article on About.com/Islam this week that directly relates to your post, Randy. I have included the link here to the letter written by top Sunni Muslim scholars from across the world to dispute ISIS claims and condemning the group’s actions in the strongest terms.

www.lettertobaghdadi.com

Quoting the article I read:

This unprecedented letter was written and signed by esteemed Muslim scholars from nearly 40 countries on six continents. The signatories are university professors and deans, authors, imams, scholars of Shari’ah law, and leaders of Islamic councils and organizations. From Egypt alone, signatories include the Grand Mufti and a former Grand Mufti, faculty from Al-Azhar University, and members of the Fatwa Council. There can be no doubt as to this group’s authority in matters of Islamic faith, law and practice – especially on a topic in which they sign their names in universal agreement.

islam.about.com/od/terrorism/fl/Islamic-Scholarsrsquo-Open-Letter-to-ISIS.htm

I hope this information helps clear up misconceptions regarding the world Muslim communities support for ISIS.

The Least of These

I guess you didn’t read it all.

Number 22.

They have the intent their just waiting to organize to do it!

 

[Denise1957]

I am not liable for the actions of others. The same violent minority factions that exist in Islam today that believe in forced conversion, have also existed in Christianity and other religions throughout history. Neither you nor I are responsible for the actions of any of these groups.

In the history of the Catholic Church, forced conversions are a rarity. Of course there was the forced conversion of the Jews in Portugal five centuries ago, but it was, and is, not common at all, since conversion is to occur by the use of free will (which the Church teaches).

Conversions that are forced by the point of a sword by the followers of Islam are particularly reprehensible. I’m very glad, however, that you’ve distanced yourself from these atrocities being committed by followers of Islam. And it’s good that many Muslims are doing the same.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hi-

I read an article on About.com/Islam this week that directly relates to your post, Randy. I have included the link here to the letter written by top Sunni Muslim scholars from across the world to dispute ISIS claims and condemning the group’s actions in the strongest terms.

www.lettertobaghdadi.com

Quoting the article I read:

This unprecedented letter was written and signed by esteemed Muslim scholars from nearly 40 countries on six continents. The signatories are university professors and deans, authors, imams, scholars of Shari’ah law, and leaders of Islamic councils and organizations. From Egypt alone, signatories include the Grand Mufti and a former Grand Mufti, faculty from Al-Azhar University, and members of the Fatwa Council. There can be no doubt as to this group’s authority in matters of Islamic faith, law and practice – especially on a topic in which they sign their names in universal agreement.

islam.about.com/od/terrorism/fl/Islamic-Scholarsrsquo-Open-Letter-to-ISIS.htm

I hope this information helps clear up misconceptions regarding the world Muslim communities support for ISIS.

The Least of These

I had not seen or heard of this letter (dated September 19), but the executive summary looks promising.

I have printed the letter, and I’m reading it now.

Thank you.

 

[Contarini]

No, we are not liable.

Still, 500 years have passed since the battle of Lepanto. One would think that humankind had progressed a bit since then.

Guess not.

Why do you believe in progress? Isn’t that a secular/Protestant superstition?

Edwin

 

[clem456]

Erm, the Catholic Church teaches that in fact, Muslims and Catholics worship God.

Well, sort of. That’s not to detract from the sincerity of Muslims, but there are differences to appreciate.
In discussion of non-Christian religions there is a subtle difference in the way the Church sees the Muslim faith compared to the Jewish faith. The word “profess” is used in regard to the Muslims. They are not said to hold the same faith of Abraham, but to profess it. They “adore” God, but the Jewish faith is characterized as worshiping God (there is a difference) and being of the same covenant family, of being “already a response” to God.

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is **already a response to **God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. **To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”**329

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these **profess to **hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Did Ghandi speak out against the British in South in India?

Did Martin Luther King speak out against the discrimination against blacks in the US?

Did Nelson Mandela speak out against apartheid in South Africa?

Did Aung San Suu Kyi speak out against the military rulers of Burma?

And remember, according to some, peace-loving Muslims are in the MAJORITY.

Yes, let’s prove our point by highlighting the brave men who finally were able to speak out and not be killed and just ignore those who came before them and aren’t really known to us because their bodies are in some unmarked shallow grave somewhere.

But, if you are looking for unmarked shallow graves full of Muslims who spoke out against Muslim extremists, go to Iraq. ISIS, for example, started off it’s murder spree by murdering those Muslims within Iraq that spoke out against it. Boko Haram has a long history of doing the same (but I guess their atrocities don’t count since they took place in that part of Africa that doesn’t matter- i.e. Sub-Saharan).