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seraphime2008
Guest
Of course, we do have different opinion, ain’t we? But as far as I’m concerned, I don’t want to argue with a belief of muslim, believe just whatever u want to believe as long as u don’t impose it to other.
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seraphime2008
Guest
Btw Elwill,
if Muhammad is the noblest man to be able to be just to all his wives, why couldn’t he say to all his companion that they should divorce all their wives but one? Weren’t they just human being with the inclination of not able to be just if they’re in polygamy?
What happened to all the other wives that they had to divorce, they would feel that they weren’t treated fair, don’t u think?
if Muhammad is the noblest man to be able to be just to all his wives, why couldn’t he say to all his companion that they should divorce all their wives but one? Weren’t they just human being with the inclination of not able to be just if they’re in polygamy?
What happened to all the other wives that they had to divorce, they would feel that they weren’t treated fair, don’t u think?
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elwill
Guest
you were talking about laws which mohammed (pbuh) established then broke it , not about commandments of OT , am i got it wrong
you are the one who said :
SO…if Muhammad can be forgiven or accomodated for wrong doing or simply just classifying these acts as justified under those conditions. What then is the purpose of the law? Would it not mean that the Law does not exist in islam because under certain ‘conditions’ the Law does not even apply.
were you talking about laws of islam or commandments of OT ?
and this is the generalise i refered to , you believe that he killed them outside of wars . and i think that it was during the time of war ( may be not in direct battelfield but it was in the time of war )
now , you are talking about laws which he advocate , i think you told me above to reread the second post which talking about OT
you are right , i can’t see that mohammed (pbuh) broke any of these commandments , may be the only one which not applied in islam is the fourth one (sabbath day) .
may be
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elwill
Guest
that’s cool with meOf course, we do have different opinion, ain’t we? But as far as I’m concerned, I don’t want to argue with a belief of muslim, believe just whatever u want to believe as long as u don’t impose it to other.
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elwill
Guest
when i say that seraphime is the noblest of the members i ever seen , it dosn’t mean that you are the only one , it’s just mean that you are the best of themBtw Elwill,
if Muhammad is the noblest man to be able to be just to all his wives, why couldn’t he say to all his companion that they should divorce all their wives but one? Weren’t they just human being with the inclination of not able to be just if they’re in polygamy?
What happened to all the other wives that they had to divorce, they would feel that they weren’t treated fair, don’t u think?
anyway , the encourage here is to seek to be fair between them the best you can
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Zundrah
Guest
Good Lord! You are brave! I’m worried about you… extreme people could get your IP address and do something bad to you… be more careful. You may step on a land mine…
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Steven_John
Guest
from the bible,
Did Moses (pbuh) under instruction for The G-d of the Jews, Jesus (pbwh) for Christians come down from a mountain and kill all those not willing to submit to G-d. I think after worship of the yellow calf.
I dont ask this to join in debate but as a question i have tried to accommodate all religions as to not offend any one so please straight simple answer and offer where in the books i might find it if possible.
I guess the story for Muslims mat be a little different so without agro i would be blessed if you could tell me if similar story in Quran and where.
In peace
Did Moses (pbuh) under instruction for The G-d of the Jews, Jesus (pbwh) for Christians come down from a mountain and kill all those not willing to submit to G-d. I think after worship of the yellow calf.
I dont ask this to join in debate but as a question i have tried to accommodate all religions as to not offend any one so please straight simple answer and offer where in the books i might find it if possible.
I guess the story for Muslims mat be a little different so without agro i would be blessed if you could tell me if similar story in Quran and where.
In peace
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seraphime2008
Guest
were u saying that other companions of Muhammad were also noble, but less noble than Muhammad so they should only be able to retain 4 wives? is this a matter of rank of who get most and who get less? I think this is rather ridiculous especially regarding the rests of the wives that needed to be divorced after this verse was “revealed”. R u saying if one could be fair with 4 they couldn’t be fair with more?when i say that seraphime is the noblest of the members i ever seen , it dosn’t mean that you are the only one , it’s just mean that you are the best of them
anyway , the encourage here is to seek to be fair between them the best you can
If you leave out ur preconceived mind, wouldn’t u see the odd of muslim argument?
Sorry, I’m just curious and astounded.
Anyway, I should admit when it comes to argument, I’m not always nice, if nice means that I cannot voice my different point of view. Many times I asked my self, when it comes to arguing with muslims, the world that we live seem to be different.
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seraphime2008
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SJ, you seemed to have objection that God killed these unfaithful people? You know, they had been given so many opportunities to directly witness the power of God, yet they still worshiped the golden calf? Hadn’t they made vow to only worship YAHWEH? Was it ok when it came to hard time to test their faith, they broke their vow?
I really admire your call to accomodate all religions, but I don’t think it will work when there are so many different tenet and theologies. The base line only that all religion (perhaps, I really don;t know exactly) that they should treat other human being well. Syncretic approach is not what I think best or wise.
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Steven_John
Guest
No objection from me just being sure i understand the books true.
It shows that G-d does work with sinners in Moses (pbuh) case.
I Dont assert it proves other sinners are prophets but shows the argument offered a sinner cant be prophet and G-d instructed outside of the 10 commandments looked at in broad literal sense argued in prior posts.
For some trinity Christians it shows Yeshua (pbwh) at this time ordered killing. (not objection)
And if the latter writings that the rock that gave water in the desert was Yeshua (pbwh) Moses (pbuh) smote him with his stick.
For some trinity Christians it arguable Moses (pbuh) smote G-d with his stick.
No need for people to get up saying this is my belief it is for un-bias discussion, what i believe is not important to yous what yous believe and assert is, you have had plenty of messengers.
I am a man, those of you who follow men don’t follow me please.
yes you are right that it does not work, but we know from the “tower to heaven” we have trouble understanding each other. I feel called to do my best at creating understanding and patience in conversation so we can see truth.
My experience is at CAF no one has changed from the hammer approach so cant see it as any value. Would be no surprise to me if some one grabs a whip to me, even many Christians dont live the first coming in flesh of Yeshua (pbwh) but are acting like the second coming.
I reckon i follow you with the base line of religions, that is IMO we fall from the base line for a variety of reasons, some personal pain, pride, zeal and so on these can be hard to move from but love with paitence will conquer and create opportunity to see truth. (thats of my faith and i believe if it does not make change He through him will bring justice). Actually i dont just believe it i know it and respect it may not be the same for others no prob to me but i care for you all so will try to help you see this way so much so at times the second edge cuts me deep but i must push in as i told Him i will die for you if He wills. Better i enter small but with you than huge without you.
I say i reckon i follow, if i am off track sorry not real good with English and don’t know bold word meaning.
G-d bless you pray well and stay well
“I will be what I will be”, you have free will so choose who you see
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elwill
Guest
you confusing me eraphime , is your question : why mohammed (pbuh) had more than 4 wives ?
or was your question this one :
if Muhammad is the noblest man to be able to be just to all his wives,** why couldn’t he say to all his companion** that they should divorce all their wives but one?
determine the question , so that i can reply
for me you are very very nice with comparison to many members here . feel free to ask whatever you wantIf you leave out ur preconceived mind, wouldn’t u see the odd of muslim argument?
Sorry, I’m just curious and astounded.
Anyway, I should admit when it comes to argument, I’m not always nice, if nice means that I cannot voice my different point of view. Many times I asked my self, when it comes to arguing with muslims, the world that we live seem to be different.
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elwill
Guest
here is what quran says about this event
7-148
And the people of Musa (Moses) made in his absence, out of their ornaments, the image of a calf (for worship). It had a sound (as if it was mooing). Did they not see that it could neither speak to them nor guide them to the way? They took it (for worship) and they were Zalimun (wrong-doers).
And when they regretted and saw that they had gone astray, they (repented and) said: “If our Lord have not mercy upon us and forgive us, we shall certainly be of the losers.”
And when Musa (Moses) returned to his people, angry and grieved, he said: “What an evil thing is that which you have done (i.e. worshipping the calf) during my absence. Did you hasten and go ahead as regards the matter of your Lord (you left His worship)?” And he threw down the Tablets and seized his brother by (the hair of) his head and dragged him towards him. Harun (Aaron) said: “O son of my mother! Indeed the people judged me weak and were about to kill me, so make not the enemies rejoice over me, nor put me amongst the people who are Zalimun (wrong-doers).”
Musa (Moses) said: “O my Lord! Forgive me and my brother, and admit us into Your Mercy, for you are the Most Merciful of those who show mercy.”
Certainly, those who took the calf (for worship), wrath from their Lord and humiliation will come upon them in the life of this world. Thus do We recompense those who invent lies.
But those who committed evil deeds and then repented afterwards and believed, verily, your Lord after (all) that is indeed Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
And when the anger of Musa (Moses) was calmed down, he took up the Tablets; and in their inscription was guidance and mercy for those who fear their Lord.
And Musa (Moses) chose out of his people seventy (of the best) men for Our appointed time and place of meeting, and when they were seized with a violent earthquake, he said: "O my Lord, if it had been Your Will, You could have destroyed them and me before; would You destroy us for the deeds of the foolish ones among us? It is only Your Trial by which You lead astray whom You will, and keep guided whom You will. You are our Wali (Protector), so forgive us and have Mercy on us: for You are the Best of those who forgive.
“And ordain for us good in this world, and in the Hereafter. Certainly we have turned unto You.” He said: (As to) My punishment I afflict therewith whom I will and My Mercy embraces all things. That (Mercy) I shall ordain for those who are the Muttaqun (the pious - See V.2:2), and give Zakat; and those who believe in Our Ayat (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs and revelations, etc.);
the story not ended here , you can complete the verses from any source
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Steven_John
Guest
AoA,
I praise and thank Allah for your help, may you and yours be blessed and guided.
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Mosacked
Guest
Common sense tells you that whoever comes first has right of claim until PROVEN wrong by a latter. Christianity & Judaism came MUCH earlier than islam, and to even show that what islam is saying is true, it (islam) must first prove beyond a doubt that what the Bible has proven with tons of witnesses and inferior to what is shown to its founder is the dark damp cave.
Doing that is quite impossible. I too can go to your house and say your mum is my maid’s sister and she has no children. Don’t I have the responsibility to PROVE myself???
muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com
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Mosacked
Guest
When a man knows how much God has done for him, the least that he can do to show appreciation is to stand up for God.
muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com
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planten
Guest
seraphime, Your God is Jesus and Jesus is your God. Please tell us why your God (Jesus) ordered Moses to kill the calf worshippers???
Why it will not work. Why not stick to good words, good behaviour??
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planten
Guest
seraphime, you are making a new law from your own mind. i.e. one wife for one man. It is not even written in your bible. Even Joseph the carpentar (the father of Jesus) had more than one wife. One of those wives was Mary. I feel that Jews have the laws. The Muslims also have their laws. The christians have no laws. Therefore they should not try to discuss marriage or divorce matters with muslims. The christians even do not understand what Jesus wanted. The christians are not living in the way Jesus was living.Btw Elwill,
if Muhammad is the noblest man to be able to be just to all his wives, why couldn’t he say to all his companion that they should divorce all their wives but one? Weren’t they just human being with the inclination of not able to be just if they’re in polygamy?
What happened to all the other wives that they had to divorce, they would feel that they weren’t treated fair, don’t u think?
Muhammad did not break any law that was given to him. The 10 commandments were for the Jews and Jesus. They were for the disciples of Jesus and all those who wanted to follow Jesus. They were not for Muhammad or his followers. Muslims got new orders, new commands. which they follow very well even today…
There are more than 600 commands in the Quran for the believers to follow. Not just 10 commands.
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planten
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Mosacked, I suggest you better sit down, or even better you lye down for the sake of Jesus christ, your God Almighty. You have no legs (real arguments) to stand on.
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Mosacked
Guest
Seraphime,
It is apparent that some people here do not know what the Bible says. God never instructed Moses to kill these people. God offered to do the killing by Himself.
Exodus 32: 9 “I have seen these people,” the LORD said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”
It is sad that we have to deal with people who knows next to nothing when they post nonsense on this board. Just too bad that if we were to keep silent, they’d think they are speaking wisdom.
muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com
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Rv_Cain_Spencer
Guest
That is a good start. But I have never visited that site.
Planten,
…would you mind if I stepped in? You’re Mohummad came along 600 years after Christ and yet by “divine” revelation Mohummad decided he knew better than Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God. Mohummad is on the same grounds as Joseph Smith, they both chatted nonsense about something they were not alive to witness.
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