Muslims have to answer question of violence... really?

[Peace_of_cake]

The Christian Serbs were acting in violation of Church teaching and Church law and the Church denounced them for their atrocities. I don’t hear the same from organized Islam speaking out against the atrocities committed by Muslims. That’s the difference.

Why do you think it is not also against Islamic teaching, law and the ulama speak out against it? It matters a lot about where we are talking about, but it was mentioned before about Christians being oppressed in Muslim majority countries. This is so, but by no means only. Also it should ask the question why are there Christians that have been for two milleniia if Islam or Muslims condoned their persecution? Clearly its a modern thing. Which books of fiqh are you referring? Take al Hidaya and you’ll see that Christians would come under an amanah or safety which would make any such act haram, the evidence being an explicit hadith. Of course lets say in Egypt and the plight of the Copts is perpetrated not by Islam but rather Saudi funded extremists and a secular government. Local Muslims have been protecting them… Have you seen the pictures of Muslims holding hands around churches… There are loads. And the Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa has spoken out many times against it. So I don’t know why you would think this would in any way be condoned?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

How are you measuring this? I guess I will when you answer me why Christian Serbs massacred Muslim Bosnians in the early to mid 90’s.

I am not defending either that or the behavior of the Croation Ustazi in WW 2. But the Muslim violence from the beginning has been on an unimaginable scale, there is no comparison at all.

Linus2nd

 

[Peace_of_cake]

I am not defending either that or the behavior of the Croation Ustazi in WW 2. But the Muslim violence from the beginning has been on an unimaginable scale, there is no comparison at all.

Why do you think this? No comparison really? I gave some… Bloodier examples even. Like i said how are you measuring this… How do you know?

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Would you mind giving us a name to aid in the research? Who are these Christian warlords?

Joseph Kony and the LRA to start with.

 

[SteveVH]

Why do you think it is not also against Islamic teaching, law and the ulama speak out against it? It matters a lot about where we are talking about, but it was mentioned before about Christians being oppressed in Muslim majority countries. This is so, but by no means only. Also it should ask the question why are there Christians that have been for two milleniia if Islam or Muslims condoned their persecution? Clearly its a modern thing. Which books of fiqh are you referring? Take al Hidaya and you’ll see that Christians would come under an amanah or safety which would make any such act haram, the evidence being an explicit hadith. Of course lets say in Egypt and the plight of the Copts is perpetrated not by Islam but rather Saudi funded extremists and a secular government. Local Muslims have been protecting them… Have you seen the pictures of Muslims holding hands around churches… There are loads. And the Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa has spoken out many times against it. So I don’t know why you would think this would in any way be condoned?

I’m sorry, I am having a difficult time understanding you. I was thrilled to see the Muslims protecting Christians, especially in light of the fact that they probably put themselves at risk by doing so. But it is evident to everyone that the Muslim world does not speak out against acts of Islamic terror on any regular basis. It is the exception, not the norm.

When one considers the fact that one is not even allowed to possess a Christian Bible in some Muslim countries, it is difficult to make the case of Muslim tolerance for Christianity.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I’m sorry, I am having a difficult time understanding you. I was thrilled to see the Muslims protecting Christians, especially in light of the fact that they probably put themselves at risk by doing so. But it is evident to everyone that the Muslim world does not speak out against acts of Islamic terror on any regular basis. It is the exception, not the norm.

When one considers the fact that one is not even allowed to possess a Christian Bible in some Muslim countries, it is difficult to make the case of Muslim tolerance for Christianity.

Exactly. If it is only those crazy extremists who are few and far between, then Christians should have no problem evangelizing in countries where the predominate religion is Islam.

Somehow I doubt Peace of Cake would be leading the effort.

 

[ffg]

The problem with that (referencing your last paragraph) is how Islam is structured. How effective have the various Baptist sects in the US been in getting the WBC to stop it’s behavior? Not very since the WBC is still doing what they do. How effective do you think a non-US Baptist sect or the Church would be in getting the WBC to stop it’s behavior? I’d assume even less effective than the US Baptist sects. So, if the various Christian sects can’t get the WBC to stop what they are doing, do you really think it’s reasonable to expect the various Islamic sects (which as a whole are even less centralized than the various Christian sects I mentioned above) to get sects that are more than happy to murder others (i.e. they are more extreme than the WBC) to stop what they are doing?

Of course, it is very much clear that there is no true existence of religious authority in the mind of the terrorist. Terror leaders know the truth, that’s why they hide while the impressionable destroy themselves and others.

Thus, to consider these people religious or in a religion in any way is an incorrect classification.

Similar to WBC, they are a hate group, not a church.

A title doesn’t define the person, the actions do.

 

[Sababah]

Islam is the religion of all the prophets. It has never been a peacenik flowerchild religion. Those who present it as such are terrified of upsetting their comfy lives if they were to stand up and say as much. So powerful has the west become that fear pervades everywhere. Except for a remnant. A band of brothers determined to up hold the truth and fight for the establishment of the Kingdom of God (Islamic khilafa).

This is not a new phenomena. It’s has always been this way. e.g. Pharoah & Musa (peace be upon him) and Rome & Eisa (peace be upon him). The “Jesus” in the bible is NOT the Eisa in the Qur’an. The Jewish Messiah in Islam called the people to armed resistence to the Roman occupation. History often refers to them as extremist zealots and at other time Messianic Jews. These are the ones who fought the Romans a running extended guerilla War & finally the Judo-Roman Wars ending with the fall of Jerusalem ( & Masada).

Of course then, like now, the Romans labeled them terrorists.

Indeed, ALLAH has purchased from the believers their lives & their properties in exchange for that they will have Paradise. THEY FIGHT IN THE CAUSE OF ALLAH , SO THEY KILL & ARE KILLED. A TRUE PROMISE BINDING UPON HIM IN the Torah and THE GOSPEL and the Qur’an. And who is truer to his covenant than ALLAH? So rejoice in your transaction which you have contracted. And it is that which is the great attainment. 9.111
Jesus preached armed resistance. Jihad. The QUR’AN tells the truth. It confirms the messiah as a military leader. The muslims await his return when soon he will descend in Damascus, kill the anti-christ & conquer & rule the world as the Islamic Caliph (The Kingdom of God).

 

[ffg]

Islam is the religion of all the prophets. It has never been a peacenik flowerchild religion. Those who present it as such are terrified of upsetting their comfy lives if they were to stand up and say as much. So powerful has the west become that fear pervades everywhere. Except for a remnant. A band of brothers determined to up hold the truth and fight for the establishment of the Kingdom of God (Islamic khilafa).

This is not a new phenomena. It’s has always been this way. e.g. Pharoah & Musa (peace be upon him) and Rome & Eisa (peace be upon him). The “Jesus” in the bible is NOT the Eisa in the Qur’an. The Jewish Messiah in Islam called the people to armed resistence to the Roman occupation. History often refers to them as extremist zealots and at other time Messianic Jews. These are the ones who fought the Romans a running extended guerilla War & finally the Judo-Roman Wars ending with the fall of Jerusalem ( & Masada).

Of course then, like now, the Romans labeled them terrorists.

Indeed, ALLAH has purchased from the believers their lives & their properties in exchange for that they will have Paradise. THEY FIGHT IN THE CAUSE OF ALLAH , SO THEY KILL & ARE KILLED. A TRUE PROMISE BINDING UPON HIM IN the Torah and THE GOSPEL and the Qur’an. And who is truer to his covenant than ALLAH? So rejoice in your transaction which you have contracted. And it is that which is the great attainment. 9.111
Jesus preached armed resistance. Jihad. The QUR’AN tells the truth. It confirms the messiah as a military leader. The muslims await his return when soon he will descend in Damascus, kill the anti-christ & conquer & rule the world as the Islamic Caliph (The Kingdom of God).

Welcome to CAF! I hope you find it informative.

Just to help clarify,

You see humans who kill that label themselves your religion as the mainstream Islam and the peaceful ones extreme?

Why does Allah want his creation to kill his creation?

You’ll have to excuse any inaccurate details, I hope for obvious reasons.

Take care

 

[Peace_of_cake]

I’m sorry, I am having a difficult time understanding you. I was thrilled to see the Muslims protecting Christians, especially in light of the fact that they probably put themselves at risk by doing so. But it is evident to everyone that the Muslim world does not speak out against acts of Islamic terror on any regular basis. It is the exception, not the norm.

When one considers the fact that one is not even allowed to possess a Christian Bible in some Muslim countries, it is difficult to make the case of Muslim tolerance for Christianity.

Apologies for the lack of clarity. My main point was that Christian have lived with Muslims for a very long time. If Islamic Law etc really taught to oppress Christians etc then none would exist. In the same way virtually no Muslims survive in Spain after the Reconquista. Oppression of Christians is primarily a modern thing and its roots are not from Islam but nationalism etc. Why do you think Muslims do not speak out? I must say they get little press coverage here, but that is not their fault. After the London bombings Muslims were very vocal. See this kurzman.unc.edu/islamic-statements-against-terrorism/
You may also ask yourself how many times you or your church has spoken out about ETA? They’re ‘Catholic’ and cause around 80% of all terrorist attacks in Europe according to Europol. Im sure whatever you come up with MUslims could easily say the same.

 

[SteveVH]

Apologies for the lack of clarity. My main point was that Christian have lived with Muslims for a very long time. If Islamic Law etc really taught to oppress Christians etc then none would exist. In the same way virtually no Muslims survive in Spain after the Reconquista. Oppression of Christians is primarily a modern thing and its roots are not from Islam but nationalism etc. Why do you think Muslims do not speak out? I must say they get little press coverage here, but that is not their fault. After the London bombings Muslims were very vocal. See this kurzman.unc.edu/islamic-statements-against-terrorism/
You may also ask yourself how many times you or your church has spoken out about ETA? They’re ‘Catholic’ and cause around 80% of all terrorist attacks in Europe according to Europol. Im sure whatever you come up with MUslims could easily say the same.

I don’t even know who the ETA are and I highly doubt that they are responsible for 80% of the terrorist attacks in Europe. Please provide your evidence. The Catholic Church sanctions no violence other than self-defense and is probably the most vocal organization in the world against it. It stands for the dignity of all people, even Muslims.

 

[Peace_of_cake]

I don’t even know who the ETA are and I highly doubt that they are responsible for 80% of the terrorist attacks in Europe. Please provide your evidence. The Catholic Church sanctions no violence other than self-defense and is probably the most vocal organization in the world against it. It stands for the dignity of all people, even Muslims.

Thanks for questioning the statistic. Actually it was 84.4% between 2006 and 2008 from political separatist groups of which the largest was ETA. ETA being the Basque separatists that operate in S France and N Spain. The 2009 Europol report read:
Islamist terrorism is still perceived as being the biggest threat worldwide, despite the fact that the EU only faced one Islamist terrorist attack in 2008.* This bomb attack took place in the UK…Separatist terrorism remains the terrorism area which affects the EU most. This includes Basque separatist terrorism in Spain and France, and Corsican terrorism in France…Past contacts between ETA and the FARC illustrate the fact that also separatist terrorist organizations seek cooperation partners outside the EU on the basis of common interests.* In the UK, dissident Irish republican groups, principally the RIRA and the CIRA, and other paramilitary groups may continue to engage in crime and violence.

Again many Muslims wouldn’t know terrorist groups since they only account for 0.4% in the same period. And we could say ETA are a political movement who happen to come from Catholic backgrounds. Like wise with the Islamists. Its all on the Europol website. You can see international ones on the Interpol website.

Agreed its not in line with Church teaching. Why do you think terrorism is in line with Islamic teaching?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

political separatist groups of which the largest was ETA.

Political separatist groups? I have never seen their houses of worship.

As you can see your statistic needs a lot of work. If you are trying to convince anyone that Islamic Terrorists are not indicative of their own religion AND that they are nothing to really fear you are going to have to use logic and reason. I have not seen that yet.

 

[dronald]

My knowledge of the ETA is low, so like anyone with no idea, I wiki’d them:

Since 1968, ETA has been held responsible for killing 829 people, injuring thousands and undertaking dozens of kidnappings.

Perhaps the number is higher, I’m not sure. However, there were 310 terror attacks, 28 suicide bombings, 1651 dead bodies and 3048 wounded during this past Ramadan alone all in the name of Islam.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Agreed its not in line with Church teaching. Why do you think terrorism is in line with Islamic teaching?

Because it is in the Koran. Because it is taught in mosques and schools, and most importantly BECAUSE IT KILLS PEOPLE.

Here are some little stats you might enjoy. From
newsdesk.umd.edu/global/print.cfm?articleID=2797

It includes these gems.

Terrorist attacks in just five countries accounted for 70 percent of the terrorist attacks worldwide in 2011:

Iraq (25.78 percent)
Pakistan (19.96 percent)
India (12.67 percent)
Afghanistan (8.35 percent)
Russia (3.71 percent)

Aside from that very few Christian terrorist groups are even on the list.

But here is what got me from this report.
foxnews.com/world/2011/05/08/al-qaeda-lethal-terror-group-world-study-finds/

So here we find that

The report shows that Al Qaeda was responsible for, or suspected to be responsible for, 84 terrorist attacks around the world since 1998, resulting in the deaths of at least 4,299 individuals. Another 6,300 people were wounded in Al Qaeda attacks.
The report concludes that Al Qaeda’s efforts were deadlier by far than those of most other known, long-term terrorist groups, including ETA, the Basque separatist organization in Spain, which killed 820 people between 1972 and 2008. IRA attacks have killed about 1,829 people dating back to 1970. The only group that comes close in terms of lethal attacks is the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC), killing 4,835 people during the course of its existence.

LOL that is just ONE Islamic terrorist group!

I have a couple of questions for you Peace of Cake.

1. Is it your contention that most terrorists are not Islamic it is just that Islamic terrorists are just leaps and bounds better at actually killing people than other groups?
2. Ask yourself, what is it about Islam that leads to such a deficit of respect for life?

I submit to you that it is that Islam lacks what Christianity knows. And that is that God loves us so much he became one of us and died for us and our sins. This leads Christians to respect life. What in the Koran or the view of God does Islam teach about the relationship between God and man? Are we loved by our father? Do we have a father? Or are we like dogs to an owner?

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Thanks to all for participating.
Thread closed.