Muslims: How could the Trinity NOT work?!

[Khalfan]

polytheism is more than one God hence opposes scripture hence wrong. Polytheism is not about the One God in the first place.

We say Hindus believes in many Gods. But they say it is different nature, functions of the same one God -Brahma the creator. The same God incarnated in man 9 times and they wait for the 10th incarnation -Kalki. They believe only one God but it is polythiesm since we see in their puranas as even Gods fight each other since they have thire own mind/wisdom to think and act. It is the same as you reason the trinity but you assume they don’t conflict each other.

"nothing of what he said reflects the true teachings. I wonder if Allah is not all-knowing and mixes things up?

do not say trinity because Allah is one! ehmm helloooo? Trinity IS One God and an all-knowing God cannot utter such a wrong statement.

great going back to our topic

Father is the SOURCE of His Word hence :

Father is equal to His Word in nature
Father is distinct to His Word in function since it originates from the Father.

Word of Allah is equal to Allah in nature (eternal, uncreated)
Word of Allah is disctinct from Allah in function because it originates from Allah but is not Allah.

Does it need a Harvard degree to understand this?
no but since Muhammad mixed all things up, you are unable to rationalize outside the islamic misunderstanding.

No. You are right here. But when you say, that word had its own mind/wisdom to think and act, I must say it two different mind/wisdom with the ability to unite and to conflict. Then it is clearly 2 Gods of their own, which doesn’t give you a chance to assume, they don’t conflict.

 

[Khalfan]

i read what i wrote 3 times so far and i don’t find myself writing that your wisdom alone is you. I wrote that your wisdom is an attribute of you hence it is you, not other person, yet it is disctinct from you because you have wisdom but you are not wisdom.

to put it as simple as i can:

when i say Khalfan’s wisdom, am i talking about Khalfan or someone else? im talking about an attribute of Khalfan. Hence Khalfan’s wisdom is equal to Khalfan but Khalfan is not wisdom but Khalfan and wisdom is his attribute.

Jesus is the Fathers’ Wisdom hence is uncreated, eternal and divine= equal to the Father in nature but the Father is not Jesus.

My wisdom alone is not me. You have the problem in understanding because you are hanging on wisdom. Say you are talking about some other part of me, like my hand, leg, eye or ear. You will understand it alone doesn’t represent me.

the rest of your post can be summarized with this question : how can God become a full human while remaining God? how can He combine both? if i were God i’d have answered you but my brain is too limited.
What i can at leat explain is that Jesus was not a human with only divine wisdom nor was He the divine with a human wisdom. Jesus had both. How? again, if i were God i’d have known but God says His ways are not our ways neither are His thoughts our thoughts.

He is God, His Wisdom is full yet He understands our wisdom and lives our wisdom and thoughts.God with all His Wisdom, thinks like us in order to guide us. God does not communicate with us using His Wisdom but our wisdom otherwise we won’t be able to communicate with Him. When dealing with us, God uses His Divine Wisdom and our human wisdom. He has both.One does not negate the other but we don’t know the how.

That wasn’t the question I asked. You answered for, have wisdom of God in Jesus had the access to wisdom of man in Jesus. Of course it can have access if God wants so.

My question was the opposite. Have the wisdom of man in Jesus had the access to wisdom of God in Jesus? Becuase man is need of God all the time, not God is in need of man.

 

[inJESUS]

You have to deal with your own Christian NIV scholars to find what coould have happened. If it was true, why is it missing in even ONE ‘most relieable’ manuscripts? There something wrong my friend. The ‘earliest most relieable manuscript’ you quoted above is dating AD 165. 165 years from Jesus (pbuh) uis a big gape and please, mind the gape.

i don’t have to deal with anyone; it is not even a problem. The resurrection is there so i corrected your statement.

As to manuscripts, missing passages are not the end of the world. One of the reasons of missing passages is sometimes missing paper or very old papers that things cannot be read or an unfinished work. Not everything in this world is a conspiracy theory. We have thousands of manuscripts; not all manuscripts are polished masterpieces.

You cannot assume ‘Jesus’ was resurrected unless ‘Jesus’ himself proves it. The later developed contradicting gospel records are enough to prove, it was never happened.

1-ask Jesus to appear in person to you and tell you.

2- do not say Marc misses the resurrection when it is there.

3-Talking about contradcting records, do you want some in the Quran when the author is supposed to be one yet repeats same passages with different details? of course you’ll tell me : you have to harmonize them (and we are talking about 1 author- supposedly). Well i\ll answer the same : you have to harmonize them and the authors are 4. 4 testimonies, not 1.

What I said, is one of many possibility. To know where and how Jesus (pbuh) was when he was supposed to get arrested, how Jesus (pbuh) can get into the tomb alive, how the body of the cricified man could have disappeared, we should know the actual event as it happened. Since it is not clear what exactly happened in Quran or in Bible (since the story is full of contradictions), the whole event needs to be reconsidered as how it could have happened in reality. But unless God reveals it, we cannot recreate history.

the Quran says nothing of it. The Bible says much. Tradition says much- Non-Christian documents say much- even apocrypha says much. So we can read all these without neededing a single word of the Quran which has no clue as to what happened, neither Quran nor sunna. Contradictions is when one gospel says there is resurrection and another says there isn’t. Different details about the same event are not contradictions but enrichment that give more testimonies of what happened.

Luke ommitted becasue he wasn’t learned to pray so. Isn’t that clear?

just like Muhammad who added more details to previous passages while learning ? Luke ommited a few words buddy. The prayer is the same, the meaning is the same. It was Muhammad who gave a different version 600 years later.

If 10 people memorise 1 gospel without even a single difference, it can be confirmed, the source of the gospel is the same.

memorizing something does not prove the truth of its source neither its being divine. Many memorize poetry and it surely ain’t divine so your premise is false to begin with. Many memorize the Quranic aya of crucifixion but this will not negate the fact that it is not divine but gnostic.

We have Matthew’s writing of the prayer and Luke’s simpler version. You are making a big deal of something we don’t even think of. No Christian panics over which version to use cuz 1- it’s simply the same and 2- the Lord’s prayer is not a “magic formula” that you have to repeat with the exact same words. There are NO “exact words” you must repeat otherwise God “will got mad” and put you in hell. This might be an Islamic view with all your sets of rituals but this is NOT what Jesus said since Jesus could care less about these robotic details because He teaches us the opposite. God is far more interested in our hearts when we pray than He is in our words. Matthew 6:6 teaches us, “But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.” Matthew 6:7 goes on to say, “And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.” In prayer, we are to pour out our hearts to God (Philippians 4:6-7), not simply recite memorized words to God.

Instead, the Lord’s prayer should be understood as an example, a pattern of how to pray, not a fixed magic formula. The Lord’s Prayer teaches us to pray. It gives us the “ingredients” that should go into prayer. Here is how it breaks down.

“Our Father in heaven” is teaching us that God is our Father.

“Hallowed be your name” is telling us to worship God, and to praise Him for who He is.

“your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven” is a reminder to us that we are to pray for God’s plan in our lives and the world, not our own plan. We are to pray for God’s will to be done, not for our desires.

Then we are encouraged to ask God for the things we need in “give us today our daily bread.”
“Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors” remind us to confess our sins to God and to turn from them – and then also to forgive others as God has forgiven us.

The conclusion of the Lord’s prayer, “And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one” is a plea for help in achieving victory over sin and a request for protection from the attacks of the devil.

Whether you use these exact words, or different words is the same because we do not follow letters.

So, again, the Lord’s prayer is not a prayer we are to memorize and recite back to God.It is not a memorize-it-or-else prayer! It is only an example of how we should be praying. Remember, in prayer, God is far more interested in us communing with Him and speaking from our hearts than He is in the specific words we use. Philippians 4:6-7 says , “Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.”

So please, stop projecting your Islamic views on Jesus or the gospels. Jesus couldn’t care less of what you are objecting to. Jesus couldn’t care less about specific words to use while talking to God. We are not people who memorize to please God, we are not people who repeat things because we have to, we are people who address our God as a Father, with any words we want because we are communicating with Him, not repeating magic words to appease Him. I hope this time you will understand this once for all.

 

[inJESUS]

You are right. The only problem is, the actual message of God is lost in that ‘Different testimonies, different word selection, different imagey,different details, different audiance’.

how can something be lost in a richer testimony? the Law requires at least 2 because it makes the testimony more valid and richer. Law courts ask many witnesses in order to draw a picture of what happened yet you come to tell me all this is wrong? a problem? a problem is when ONE man claims to receive messages via an angel when no one even saw that angel and then start opposing all previous prophets. This is the problem my friend, not 4 testimonies. There is nothing lost on the contrary. There is the same testimony by different people to different audiances. Jesus was not interested in people writing down every single word He said. People were not taking notes when He was preahing. Jesus couldn’t care less about people following words but about people following Him. He sent dozens of people to preach His word, He did not send books. He did not send books to prove who He is…he sent people and said : those who do not accept you , dust off your sandals and leave. He did not say search the scriptures for me, He said : COME TO ME. He said " i am standing at your door, if you open i’ll enter", He did not say open the book to find me! we are NOT people of the book. We are people of the Word.These people preached about the Messiah, the Son of God, who came so that they have eternal life through Him. Looking for words or exact prayers or exact rituals or how to pray and how to eat and how to sleep , Jesus couldn’t care less about these things. We follow Jesus. We do not follow a book. The Bible did not exist as it is now in the first century, What existed are the disciples who established dozens of churches everywhere, who taught and preached till their martyrdroom, leaving after them other disciples who continued writing and preaching till their death and then disciples after them, all when the church was growing and growing and the faith established. Later when heretics like gnostics and arians started teaching things on their own to mislead people writing their own versions of the gospels with truth and fiction did the church decide to gather the faith, the apostles’ letters and writings into a unified book so that no heretics mislead people. So please stop projecting your Islamic understanding of scripture on us. Our faith existed long before the NT you read now. We do NOT rely on the NT only to know who Jesus is. We rely on the testimony of the first disciples and their disciples whom we call church fathers whom Jesus sent. If you do not believe their testimony, they just dust off their sandals. So again, we are not people who follow rituals to be saved…we are not people who have specfic prayers to repeat or specific position to pray toward or specific rakaat to pray. We are people saved by God out of love, not out of personal merit. The gospels are a testimony of Jesus, not a set of words that must be memorized to be saved. The gospels are a testimony of what God did, not a book of rituals to be saved. Jesus is a not a prophet confined to a book, Jesus is a LIVING prophet, a living rabbi, a living priest, a living God who is knocking at our door. To know Him, we talk to Him directly and to know of Him from scriptures, we read OT, NT and tradition passed on by the disciples.The gospels, again, are personal testimonies of Jesus’ disciples, each in his own words to his own audiance. Take it or leave it, as Jesus said.

You don’t even know who, when and for what purpose, it was written.

yes we know. We ask those who witnessed the authors and they say who they are : our church fathers.

What we know is, in year 382 AD some ‘Christians’ compiled some books talking about Jesus (pbuh) and God as and how they believed it,

some Christians? it was hundreds of bishops from all the churches, not a bunch of Christians buddy. And where did you get your date from? and no, they were not looking for what they believe in lol, they HAD what they believe in in letters and gospels and tradition.

from many places into one book and named it Bible. Many contradicting books were distroyed forever which wasn’t going along with the concept they believed.

destroyed forever? am not sure since even the heretics’ words are reported by the church so maybe you can enlighten me on this. As to being rejected, sure, if they were not apostolic. What did you expect us to do? welcome any nutcase who wrote anything?

Some writings kept as apocrypha since it wasn’t going along with other books in every detail but in many. So that it became ‘inspired’ for some but not for all. There was only 3 doubtful books according to early church but later it became 7. How was that, is too -unknown. 4 inspired books removed from ‘inspired books’ of Bible. Many verse and chapters weren’t there in the ‘most reliable early many scripts’. The most cerculating version -KJV have 5 REVISIONS in last 400 years.

what 2 and what 7 are you talking about? you mix everything together that one is unable to follow you. Please be more specific…

choose all the NT apocrypha you want. They still oppose the Quran. You must understand by now that apocrypha, though it might have many orthodox teachings which it can be read,no problem, but it cannot be considered as canon because it is not apostolic. So you do not have a case even with the apocrypha.

 

[Khalfan]

strange, you understand the idea yet you keep asking how can they be equal yet distinct?

Here, i inserted words in your paragraph.

Result, Jesus and the Father are indeed distinct.

The remaining question is : are they equal?

It was already established that the Word of the Father, though distinct from Him in function (source, outcome), is equal to Him in nature (uncreated, eternal, divine).

Final result : Jesus is distinct from the Father but is equal to Him.

Quote:
simply because Wisdom comes from the Father. Am not talking about power here. Am saying Wisdom comes from the Father and it is not the Father in function but in nature.

you contradicted yourself. You just agreed in the previous passage that God is the source of His Word/Wisdom. What do puppets have to do here? what the Wisdom of God does is what God does unless God’s Wisdom is different than God. What the Spirit of God does is what God does. The Father, His Word and Spirit are inseperable because they are the same One God.

Jesus had human wisdom and divine wisdom. Again, how can God have both? rather, can’t God have both?

Let’s think. God is soooo knowlegeable, sooo intelligent, sooo powerful. His Mind is limitless. His Knowledge is unmatcheable. His Wisdom is overwhelming. What are we in comparison? we who fail to understand ourselves, we who fail to understand material things next to us. Whatare we in comparision? what is our wisdom in comparsion to His? what is our mind in comparision to His? nothing. Can you imagine what could happen if the described above God wants to communicate with us using His Wisdom? catastrophe. It’s like a philosopher talking philosophy to a 3 year-old child even much worse…it’s like a scientist talking to a donkey. So how does God approach us?
the answer is : using our own thoughts, wisdom and mind otherwise we won’t understand a word.He uses our language, He uses our words, He uses our expressions, He uses our imagery, He uses what we can understand as humans. He lives, watches, and understands our limited thoughts and knowledge. He, in His nature, has His own Wisdom but deals with us using our own limitation and capacity. In other words, He combines both for our sake: His Divine Wisdom with our human wisdom. He knows when to use His Divine Wisdom and when to use our wisdom. He knows what we should know and what we should not know. He knows what we can understand and what we cannot. He knows what to reveal and what to hide using His Wisdom and our. Having our wisdom is His Divine Wisdom is God’s power.

I read many things but not the answer.

HAVE THE WISDOM OF MAN IN JESUS (pbuh) HAD THE ACCESS TO THE WISDOM OF GOD IN JESUS (pbuh)?

Hope the question is clear. I don’t want to know the nature of Jesus or of God or of man. Just answer the question, instead of red-harring.

do you know anything in the OT other than one sentence in Ezekiel? if you are refering to atonement, i already said it is related to the Levitical Law, not a sentence in Ezekiel.

here’s an example:

" this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins." Matthew 28

again, why did He cry when He saw Eliazar dead knowing He will resurrect Him in a minute? because He reacted to sad events and good events with laughter or tears as a human being. He was not sensless. He was full of feeling for humanity. Did you expect Him to be so joyful, all laughing and happy about the horrible suffering He’ll go through as if He had no feelings? He was very anxious and sad even though He knew He will raise Himself. He knew very well He WILL be crucified, resurrected and come back again to judge. He was showing his anxiety amid His knowledge of victory. If God knows a horrible accident will happen to me tomorrow but that i will survive, does it mean He will not feel for what is going to happen?

He wouldn’t pray if the wisdom of man in him had the access to the wisdom of God in him. He could find answer from it without any prayer. But he prayed, which means,

a) He didn’t know he is Wisdom of God which is equal God according to you. or,
b) He were unable to use the Godly power as and when needed. In other words, God in him was unable to help him in needs.

In both case, claim of the divinity in him becomes a lie.

knowlege does not negate feelings.

Do you realise what you said? If I am about to attend an exam, and I can foresee, i will pass it with 90 % mark, do you expact me to be anxiety of the exam? Knowledge of the result do negate the feelings my friend. Think twice before you talk.

1-am still waiting for an answer. Who was it?

2- All the previous prophets who were killed, none of them prayed for salvation right? none of them cried God help me right? yet God gave a blind ear right?

3- Jesus knew that He will be raised. He, as a true human, was showing His anxiety of what will come, knowing He WILL be crucified and that He WILL be raised. Jesus gave His life voluntarily but this does NOT mean He was sensless to suffering. You read half of the sentence all the time.

Prophets (pbut) to be saved, was saved. Specially when they prayed to be saved.

why, do you believe Allah is sensless? Allah does not feel angry? does not feel sad? does not feel happy?does not feel love? doesnt your sunna say we are created in his image? we, the creature, have more feelings than Allah? what kind of deity you believe in?

We don’t believe he is in any image we can imagine of. He do love, be angry, happy but he is above all human feelings. Feelings doesn’t make him to compromise with his creature. Even a man do good deeds all his life, he still have choice to accept or to reject his deeds as righteous. It is not because he will reject, but we accept his right to do so. We believe God do only Godly things (Good) and not the human charecteristics as jelouse, repent, decieve, confusing, helpless, breaking promises etc.

yes but Allah has hands and feet and chin, ascends his thrown and descends to earth at night , hears and listens and sees and prays the Quran before creation are ok? ah these are not to be taken literally but when it comes to the Bible, they should be taken literally because it “must” be wrong and corrupt. Ok got it.

Do we believe in it literally? that is the question. You believe in it literally. Otherwise how could any christian draw the image of father as a white beard old man? How could you believe he repented? he was jelouse? he confused people?

Is Allah scandalized by humanity yet says we are created in his image and in the best mould? and swears by trees and the sun and the moon and angels and created things? is Allah scadalized by humanity yet talks to humans using human language, words, and expressions? He cant be scandalized yet swear by created things and use human expressions, can he?

He is using our language that we can understand him. If he swear on something that unknown to man, would’t we be confused what is it? If it was to be known to us, he did convayed his message so.

my God is a Father.If you believe Allah is senseless, does not love or feel sad or feel happy, if you believe he is sick with anything related to humans, then please do not say you believe in the God of previous prophets because previous prophets taught He is a Father who cares, loves, feel sad, feel happy ecc.

And you get that in your Bible right?

“There are three that bear witness in heaven, Father, son and holy ghost and these three are one”

Hold on a second… where is that in this BIBLE? Bring me another bible. Yaa it is hear… thank God. Wait… it is not in this MOST RELIABLE EARLY MANUSCRIPT.

See Jesus says, ‘I AM GOD’. But it wasn’t in this Bible yesterday. Don’t worry… we will remove it, if someone ask. Let it be there untill then. We can sell this Bible for whole lot of money…

maybe they expected the readers to be a bit knowledgeable about the Psalm? or maybe Jesus should have said : hey am quoting the Psalm. Shouldn’t Muhammad have said he was quoting Paul? yet knowlegeable people know the quotations.

The NT is FULL of OT quotes. You don’t expect the authors to put into ( ) that it is a quote right? knowledgeable people know best.

Oh yaa… Thats why many of the NT quotes reffering OT is in fact missing or misplaced in OT.

The quote ‘God, why have you forsaken me’ from a willful partner of atonement is unimaginable, especially when he himself is God. That is what any reasonable mind of any layman can see in that quote. As you have said earlier, you don’t need a harward degree to understand that.

 

[Khalfan]

1-the Quran is not a human so obviously it has no mind.Since it is a book it has papers and ink.

2- the Islamic teaching is that the Quran is the eternal, uncreated, speach/mind of Allah. I don’t think Sunnis break God’s mind into parts unless you can show me otherwise.

1- source and outcome= same nature because both are uncreated and eternal

2- the Word, again, took a human form. A human wisdom does not negate a divine wisdom unless God cannot do it.

didnt the eternal enter the realm of time and space in a material form? half or full is irrelevant.

who on earth said a man contained God? He is God before taking a human body. He incarnated into virgin Mary. You still did not understand this after thousands of posts?

God incarnated into virgin mary. God lived in a human body. Same you say, human body cannot contain God. isn’t that self contradicting? it is.

You said,

Jesus can do whatever the Father can do. Is that not omnipotence? Jesus can give power to His followers, wherever they are, to do miracles. Is that not omnipotence when only God can empower people everywhere at the same time? Jesus gives wisdom to all at the same time, Isn’t this omnipotence? Jesus gives peace the world cannot give, isn’t this omnipotence? Jesus knows what people in a different city are talking about, or what they are thinking within themselves, isn’t this omnipotence?Jesus can raise Himself, isn’t this omnipotence? Jesus can be with different people at the same time, isnt this omnipotence?

I said, Jesus (pbuh) said he cannot do anything his own.

because the Father is the source? because the Father sends His Word and not the other way round? how many times should i repeat this very simple idea?

Can Jesus (pbuh) be omnipotent for anything he did, since he was unable to do anything without the power given by Father/God? Can omnipotent be dependend of another omnipotent? Can omnipresent be dependend of another omnipresent? Dependency is a disqualification for God. So Jesus (pbuh) wasn’t God, since he was dependent. I know you will refute, but that won’t make him independent.

and if Jesus is not God, He has no right to say what i wrote in the above quotation unless you understand who Jesus is better than Jesus. No human, no prophet, can say he gives wisdom, or power, or peace to all people, at all times, everywhere.

We already spoke of the accuracy of his speach. Jesus (pbuh) might have said something like, but to come to any close is subject to reconsideration. We all believe, any man can do even greater things, if God wills to give the power. But still God is God, and the one got the power, cannot be God.

 

[Khalfan]

you understood nothing so far. I am NOT making a full comparison between a book and a human being. Am a bit more intelligent than that am quote the Sunni teaching to show that in islam the word of Allah is uncreated and eternal. Since only Allah is uncreated and eternal, it means that His word is not another Allah (monotheism) but is the nature of Allah though distinct. Exactly the Christian teaching.

did you understand this or not?

How many times you want me to repeat the same thing? Yuo are correct with what you are saying about the wisdom of God, but as soon as you say, that wisdom had it’s mind to think, apart from the mind of God, you are saying two minds with same abilities or lesser abilities.

what? godly power but not God? oh my. How can the Wisdom of God be not God if it took a human form pray tell? pray tell why would God stop being God if He took a human form. Pray tell why God cannot take a human form and stay God?

assistance? does God need His Wisdom to assist Him? does He need His Spirit to assist Him? it’s His NATURE! not his assistance. These are not secretaries you know.

Why do you always reverse my question? How can the wisdom of God ALONE be God, even if it took a human form?

Can’t God fulfill his functions without the incarnation in human and in Holy Spirit?

Now don’t reverse the question. I rather prefer ‘mystery’ than a reverse answer that I never asked.

 

[inJESUS]

Are you serious in asking two similar concepts can’t be told twice? You have the problem in accepting that because,

a) You want to disprove Quran by saying it is copy of earlier writings.

b) You don’t accept even if we say, previous prophets were teaching the same message of Quran.

no, taking 2 similar concepts is not a problem of course. But when Muhammad quotes Paul, don’t come telling me Paul is a self-proclaimed prophet. When Muhammad quotes many passages found in Mathew, don’t come question me about who wrote Matthew. You cant have your cake and it.

Paul could have got it from any ‘true’ teaching of Jesus (pbuh).

so was Paul teaching wrong things or correct things? or wrong when it doesnt suit you and correct when it does? unfortunately for you, the quote in 1 Cor. 2:9 is unique to the apostle Paul, being his way of paraphrasing and/or combining texts in generalizing an OT theme. The quote reflects Paul’s **own wording **and summary of God’s promise to believers, by inspiration, and cannot be found in any source predating Paul’s writings.

Muhammad quoted the same paraphrazing of Paul, calling it allah’s word. So either :

The statement found in Paul’s “quote” is NOT of divine origin. Then Muhammad is attributing to God what was not from God

Or

The statement in 1 Cor. 2:9 IS of divine origin and God inspired Paul to write it this way, that is, combining scriptures together.

you must now explain to yourself, not to us, how Paul – who is supposedly an enemy of the true God and the true religion – was able to utter divine revelation which cannot be traced to any earlier source and only found in his letter.

Here is Matthew:
Narrated AbudDarda’:
I heard the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) say: If any of you is suffering from anything or his brother is suffering, he should say: Our Lord is Allah Who is in the heaven, holy is Thy name, Thy command reigns supreme in the heaven and the earth, as Thy mercy in the heaven, make Thy mercy in the earth; forgive us our sins, and our errors; Thou art the Lord of good men; send down mercy from Thy mercy, and remedy, and remedy from Thy remedy on this pain so that it is healed up. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 28, Number 3883)

this is John:

Narrated AbuUmamah
Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said, “Blessed is he who has seen me, but seven times blessed is he who has not seen me but has believed in me.”
Ahmad transmitted it. (Number 1688; taken from the ALIM CD-ROM Version)

“Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’” John 20:29

Clear plagiarism since it was Jesus who said this and Muhammad attributed Jesus’ words to himself.

Hadith Qudsi 18:

On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: Allah (mighty and sublime be He) will say on the Day of Resurrection:

O son of Adam, I fell ill and you visited Me not. He will say: O Lord, and how should I visit You when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: Did you not know that My servant So-and-so had fallen ill and you visited him not? Did you not know that had you visited him you would have found Me with him? O son of Adam, I asked you for food and you fed Me not. He will say: O Lord, and how should I feed You when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: Did you not know that My servant So-and-so asked you for food and you fed him not? Did you notknow that had you fed him you would surely have found that (the reward for doing so) with Me? O son of Adam, I asked you to give Me to drink and you gave Me not to drink. He will say: O Lord, how should I give You to drink when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: My servant So-and-so asked you to give him to drink and you gave him not to drink. Had you given him to drink you would have surely found that with Me.

Plagiarized from Jesus words in Matthew 25:31.

But we have another problem. Jesus was talking like this because He was God and man. If you feed a man, is like feeding Jesus who is both God and man. Why is Allah talking as if he were a man

there are other passages taken from Matthew as Allah’s word. If you question the truth of the author then you better ask why did your prophet plagiarize him, attributing Jesus’ words to either himself or Allah?

The problem of plagiarism does not stop here. A dozen passages are taken from apocrypha written by non-eyewitnesses who neither saw Jesus nor the disciples yet their words are found in the Quran as Allah’s literal word. Did Allah inspire these people who neither knew Jesus nor any of his disciples as well?

'Umar b. al-Khattab and Anas b. Malik reported God’s messenger as saying that it is written in the Torah, “If anyone does not give his daughter in marriage when she reaches twelve and she commits sin, the guilt of that rests on him.” Baihaqi transmitted both traditions in Shu’ab al-Iman.

OOOPS. A mistake “prophet” Muhammad. This is NOT written in the Torah but in the TALMUD which is a rabbinical interpretation of the Torah.

‘Everyman’s Talmud’ : “With regard to a girl, it was urged that the father’s duty was to secure a husband for her at an early age. The verse ‘Profane not thy daughter to make her a harlot’ (Leviticus 19:29) was applied to a man ‘who delays in arranging a marriage while she is of suitable age’ (Sanhedrin 76a). She was considered to have arrived at this stage when she passed her twelfth birthday”

Another problem yet : did Allah inspired the Christian legends found in the Quran as Allah’s literal word as well? and there are many other non-biblical sources as welll mashallah Allah was busy gathering words from here and there and tells us these are the eternal words of an all-knowing deity, not tales of ancient that Muhammad repeated or rabbinical interpretations or gospel narratives or NT 5th century apocrypha or simply legends.

Will memorizing all these verse as exactly uttered by Muhammad prove their origin is Allah? thank God they were memorized for us to see all the plagiarism Muhammad did from here and there . And we seriously are to believe these are God’s words?.

Well done my friend. You can make better stories. And is this how all stories made by your ancsestors? I think so. Because no one knows when the original was written. No one knows when the ‘apocrypha’ were written. No one knows who wrote it and for what purpose. You will say No… No… No… it was written before Mohamed. You know that all those ‘inspired’ books in the first Bible is not ‘inspired’ today. You know that many verse and chapters were not there in the early scripts.

easy my friend. The dates of the apocrypha are known. The authors are surely spurious.No stories but facts. I can quote to you a dozen passage in Quran taken from diferent apocrypha written after the 3rd century. Piece of cake. You question the gospels quoted by Jesus disciples’ disciples, found all over our tradition starting the first century before any NT was compiled, yet you do not question how come unknown authors dating to the 3rd or 4th or 5th century who were neither apostles, nor disciples, nor pupils, nor church fathers, and who wrote absurd things in addition to things that oppose the Quran, how comes their words are written in the quran as allah’s exact words. You can forget about the NT complilation because this is absolutely no problem to us. Simply by quoting the disciples’ disciples from our tradition, who quoted all the NT we have now before its compilation, we can know about Jesus, the Word of God, who took a human from, was crucified and resurrected. As simple as this, putting aside all the NT of the world. So your mantra of NT compilations drops on deaf ears because who Jesus is and what He did was already quoted in our tradition before the complilation of anything. I repeat, we do not follow books, we follow one Jesus, and we accept the testimony of the disciples and their disciples quoted in our tradition. So if you burn all the NT, we can still know everything we know about Jesus cuz that’s simply in our tradition so spare yourself, and Catholics, the energy about this topic cuz its not something we even worry about

Please, mind that i can make better stories too regarding Jesus (pbuh) according to Bible and other available sorces which will go along with Quran’s teaching. But we don’t do that, since the information we have is limited.

the info you have is not limited. It is null. The Quran says nothing neither about Jesus life nor about His teachings (obviously cuz they oppose Muhammad’s). So i wonder what you are talking about?

NO. NOT AT ALL. Jesus (pbuh) asked to keep the law. Paul said, Jesus (pbuh) himself abolished the law. It was Paul’s letters written first and cerculating around. The writing ‘disciples’ could have influenced by those and made thier own interpretation for what they saw. That is why we have a growing Jesus in Mark to John.

Paul wrote exactly what Jesus, Peter, James, Luke and John said. I am asking you to prove one thing in which Paul taught something different. Only one thing. Not that hard is it? so go ahead, am waiting

 

[inJESUS]

Quran or Mohamed (pbuh) never said God’s words currepted.

1- contradicted your previous posts. Your magic mantra is corruption so is it corrupt or not? it cant be half half. Either corrupt or not. If Muhammad said God’s Word is corrupt means he is no true prophet cuz none of previous prophets dared insult God’s power as such.

Quran said about Torah as, the people mixed thire own words with it. Quran said about Injeel as, they left behind the Gospel of God and wrote something of their own and said it is from God.

 

[Khalfan]

you were given the answer. If not clear yet, here we go:

God is a single “actor,” with a single will. Everything God does is an act of the entire Trinity, acting as one, not as a committee.

In other words, it is not that the Father does one thing and His Wisdom and Spirit do another. The Trinity does exactly the same thing because the Trinity is ONE SINGLE GOD.

Do NOT mix the incarnation of Jesus with the Trinity .Do NOT mix Jesus’ 2 natures with the Trinity.

Father is the sorce of the wisdom and Spirit. If they were one, it can fulfill all of its functions as it is since GOD never changes. But you again name the wisdom as Jesus and the spirit as Holy Ghost. All they three completes the same one God, but still you name them as three and refer three functions as one as the guide, other as the lamb, third as runner of the show.

The Trinity exists before the incarnation of Jesus as a man.

Did anyone ever knew TRINITY NATURE OF GOD before Jesus (pbuh)? Do any Jew accept trinity? Why is it an alean concept for them, which existed and revealed many prophets for thousands of years? It is a later developed concept my friend, only after Paul, who wanted an answer for cross event.

 

[inJESUS]

We say Hindus believes in many Gods. But they say it is different nature, functions of the same one God -Brahma the creator. The same God incarnated in man 9 times and they wait for the 10th incarnation -Kalki. They believe only one God but it is polythiesm since we see in their puranas as even Gods fight each other since they have thire own mind/wisdom to think and act. It is the same as you reason the trinity but you assume they don’t conflict each other.

i know nothing about hinduism. If they say they believe in one God, then they are monotheists. The best we can say is that we do not believe the nature of God as they do. I cany argue further neither can i impose my understanding on them cuz i simply do not understand their belief.

As to Trinity, it is not 3 gods fighting or thinking differently. It is One God, One actor thinking and doing the same through His Wisdom and Spirit. Again, we do not say that the Father thinks one thing and His Wisdom another thing and His Spirit another ! it is the same God thinking and doing the same thing. It is like i have body, and mind. When i talk, both my body and my mind are working though my body is not my mind and i am one.

When the Psalmist says : Where can I hide from your spirit? From your presence, where can I flee?
8
If I ascend to the heavens,** you **are there; if I lie down in Sheol, you are there too.

The Spirit of God is the presence of God is God.

When we talk about the Spirit of God in term of “person”, we are NOT talking about a different person, We are just saying that the Spirit of God is NOT “a” power. The Spirit of God gives power, strengh, endurance, faith, joy ecc hence it is not an impersonal power but it is God. That’s what we mean by “person” and not as you understood it , thinking we mean a person who has a different mind. No it means it is not an impersonal power but God Himself.

No. You are right here. But when you say, that word had its own mind/wisdom to think and act, I must say it two different mind/wisdom with the ability to unite and to conflict. Then it is clearly 2 Gods of their own, which doesn’t give you a chance to assume, they don’t conflict.

mixing again Jesus’ 2 natures.

Can or can’t God have a human nature while remaining God? if you say He can, they why are you still arguing about this point? if you are askin about the “how” then surely i am not God to know…i bearly understand myself.

 

[inJESUS]

My wisdom alone is not me. You have the problem in understanding because you are hanging on wisdom. Say you are talking about some other part of me, like my hand, leg, eye or ear. You will understand it alone doesn’t represent me.

am i asking you for the second time where did i say that your wisdom alone is you? i said your wisdom is you but i didnt say your wisdom alone is you. So when i speak of you and your wisdom , am talking about the same person.

That wasn’t the question I asked. You answered for, have wisdom of God in Jesus had the access to wisdom of man in Jesus. Of course it can have access if God wants so.

 

[Khalfan]

correct. they do not conflict because it it ONE God acting. Your confusion, as shown below, is about Jesus’ second nature, not the Trinity.

you are confusing, again and again, the 2 natures of Christ. Jesus as a human, had human feelings of fear and anxiety “exceedingly sorrowful - even unto death” (Mark 14.34). Fearing or having anxiety about something does not mean you reject this thing. If Jesus rejects the cross, He wouldn’t have predicted His death and resurrection many times. He’d have said " i have the feeling i *might *be killed but i hope the Father will save me of this". But this did not happen. Jesus not only confirmed His crucifixion, but He also confirmed His resurrection. “NO ONE TAKES IT FROM ME, BUT I LAY IT DOWN OF MY OWN ACCORD. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.” .In His humanity, he felt terrible anxiety of the suffering He will go through, but :

The Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Mark 10:45)

Jesus took the twelve aside and told them, ‘We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.’(Luke 18:31)

Unless Jesus rejects the previous prophets as liars, you cannot say that Jesus thought he might not be killed when He already mentioned that previous prophets already wrote about it. When prophets predict, things HAPPEN.

All in all, in his humanity Jesus had anxiety of what is to come knowing fully well it will happen. He said He will resurrect Himself." Jesus answered them, ‘Destroy this temple, and I WILL RAISE IT AGAIN in three days’… But the temple he had spoken of WAS HIS BODY. Saying He will resurrect Himself, how on earth can it mean that He rejects it? you do not reject a thing knowing it will happen. You show anxiety but you don’t reject. John, Matthew and Luke reported this anxiety the human Jesus went through, but they surely did not say Jesus refused the suffering.

and you find it in John, right? the most updated story of Jesus-God.

Do you really know what a ‘ransom’ means?

In synoptic Gospels, the show is like this.

God to sinners : “Sinners, I love you. Go free. The sinner must die for his sins, but I have decided to kill someone else for your sins. So Go free. Bring my Son”

God to Son : “Son, I have decided to kill you for those sinners”

Son to God : “Father, can you please reconsider your decision? I will accept you, but can you think of something else than killing me?”

God to Son : “No. I have decided it. you will die”

In John’s story, the show is like this.

God to Sinners : “Sinners, all you will die for your sins. That is the law”

Son enters the stage and says to Father : “Father, I know you love them, but I love them more and I don’t want you to kill them”

Father to Son : “They must die for their sins, that is the law”

Son to father : ''Father, I will die for them."

Son to Sinners : “Sinners, go free. Just have faith in me, I love you”

You can’t make Jesus (pbuh) a willing partner in the cross event, unless you remove that prayer from the Bible forever as a forgery (you Christians did that many times; but those were favouring Islam. Now do something for you).

uh? since when is the Wisdom/Word of God a puppet to God? if you are talking about Jesus the man, then yes he came to do the will of the Father, just like scriptures do the will of the Father, that is, guidance. In this sense, all prophets are “puppets”. But to say that the eternal and uncreated Wisdom/Word of God is a puppet only because the Father is the head is the most absurd statement i’ve read so far unless Islam teaches that the Word of Allah is Allah’s puppet.

Not again. When that Wisdom is a human with a human wisdom as well, that man either can be a puppet, or of it’s own. If it was its own with free will to choose, then that another being than God.

confusing again Jesus’ 2 natures. Do you think we believe Jesus came as a half human ? that He assumed a human body without human feelings, will, ecc? who said that Jesus did not have a human will? again:

quote" Because Jesus possesses fully the nature of a man, He has a human body and soul. Furthermore, His human soul, like ours, has intellect and will. (He is like man in all things but sin). But Jesus has the infinite intellect and will of God as well as the intellect and will of a man. He is one divine person having two natures, the human and the divine. In the gospels we see Jesus demonstrating that He possesses the divine knowledge and will of God. Yet He shows His human will when, in agony in the garden of Gethsemene, He cries, “Not my will but thine be done.” Luke 22:43).

Again and again, Jesus was not a man in disguise. He was a true man, having a body, soul, intellect and will. The will of Jesus the man does not conflict the will of the Father. A will conflicts when the result is a conflict. God said do not give false testimonies. When i give a false testimony, it means i am in conflict with God’s will. Sin is a result of a choice. BUT if i think within myself of doing it but i DON’T, it means i am not in conflict, it means i have my own will to choose, a quality God gave us. Jesus, by becoming a man, had a human will as well but He always chose the will of the Father because, exactly, He came as a man to do the will of the Father. He said He came from Heaven to do His Father’s will but this does not mean he became a man with no human will. He became a full man with will, feelings ecc. We all have this will of choice and we all sin one time or the other because we are humans and all humans sin and repent. Jesus as a man had a human will yet never sinned or repented or acted in conflict with the Father because He was no ordinary man. He became a man for a reason. So did Jesus have a human will or only a divine one? obviously He had a human will as well because He became a full man. He was full man, full God, the man in Him , having a will, yet always working for the Divine plan because He was no ordinary man . He did not come to satisfy the man in Him but to satisfy the Divine. To satisfy the Divine, He presented Himself as the unblemished/sinless lamb of God that God promised Abraham to send but this time for all humanity.

It will be answered by my question.

If the wisdom of man in him had the access to the wisdom of God in him? In both case, whether he had or not, the prayer to be saved from cross, doesn’t suite to a willing partner of the cross event.

NB: i wonder why Allah in the Quran says that he substituted Abraham’s son with a GREAT sacrifice. In Christian terms it is indeed great because it was God’s Son, but why would a ram be so great in Islam?

It was a test for Abraham (pbuh) to check his loyalty to God. Ram is just a remeberenece of that event. We don’t put our sin on the lamb, we don’t sprinkle the blood on sinners.

where on earth did you get this from? you are mixing Jesus’ 2 natures in all your posts. UNDERSTAND that the Trinity (Father, Wisdom, Spirit) exists BEFORE the incarnation of the Word. It is the incarnation you have difficulties with, not the Trinity. It is :

Can ther be a trynity without Jesus (pbuh)? No.

How can God eat?
How can God die?
How can God sleep?
How can God have a human will?
How can God talk to God?

Again, these have to do with the SECOND nature of the Word.

whatever form the Word assumes, be it a book or a human or an angel, or fire, it will act as a book, human , angel or fire FOR OUR SAKE but it will remain for ever the uncreated and eternal word of God.

Whatever the Wisdom of God or the Spirit of God does, it means it is God. The Trinity is NOT 3 “individuals” or 3 “persons” or a “commitee”. When you speak of Jesus the man, you are dealing with the incarnation, NOT the Trinity that exists before the incarnation of the Word.

I have already said, TRINITY IS A CONCEPT DEVELOPED ONLY AFTER JESUS (PBUH) or rather PAUL. That is no Jews believe in it. You have your stories to make it true. I can understand that. But you cannot prove it existed ever.

it is a problem to humans, not to God. If He wants to have a human nature beside His divine nature, He will not ask your assisstance, will He? the same God who spoke to prophets with human language , using human voice, human imagery, and human understanding is the same God who applied them in a real person That’s our Father

Question : why do you think that it is “shameful” for Allah to become a man in addition to being God? if humanity is so “shameful”, why do you think Allah will accept you in his presence after you die? what is your problem with humanity?

My dear friend, you must understand. I don’t have a problem with what God can be or cannot be. The only problem is Jesus (pbhu), his life and cross event. If there is no cross, No Christianity, No trinity. The only reason that makes you believe Jesus (pbuh) is God, is the belief that he gave his life on the cross for our sin. Do God really need a payment to forgive our sins? Read Ezekiel 18 again and again. What God demands us to get forgiven is, our repentence and willing to follow his guidence.

Can I sak you back, Why God is only in three nature, why not in ten as the hindus believe? or Just like love, mercy, angry, sad etc in any incarnated form of any animal like dow, cow or lion etc? People do believe in such incarnations in INDIA and ion many other place.

 

[Khalfan]

i don’t have to deal with anyone; it is not even a problem. The resurrection is there so i corrected your statement.

As to manuscripts, missing passages are not the end of the world. One of the reasons of missing passages is sometimes missing paper or very old papers that things cannot be read or an unfinished work. Not everything in this world is a conspiracy theory. We have thousands of manuscripts; not all manuscripts are polished masterpieces.

I wonder, how can you still say, you have the true teachings of Jesus (pbuh), even after you know people have added fabricated stories into Bible in the name disciples?

1-ask Jesus to appear in person to you and tell you.

2- do not say Marc misses the resurrection when it is there.

‘Jesus’ wasn’t appeared to anyone till then. And the story body missing was never told. The resurrected appearence contradicts from beginning to end.

3-Talking about contradcting records, do you want some in the Quran when the author is supposed to be one yet repeats same passages with different details? of course you’ll tell me : you have to harmonize them (and we are talking about 1 author- supposedly). Well i\ll answer the same : you have to harmonize them and the authors are 4. 4 testimonies, not 1.

Quran is not reporting history of Mohamed (pbuh), so it has it’s way of talking according to situation. But Gospels are reporting history and history cannot happen 4 times in 4 way.

the Quran says nothing of it. The Bible says much. Tradition says much- Non-Christian documents say much- even apocrypha says much. So we can read all these without neededing a single word of the Quran which has no clue as to what happened, neither Quran nor sunna. Contradictions is when one gospel says there is resurrection and another says there isn’t. Different details about the same event are not contradictions but enrichment that give more testimonies of what happened.

Are you blind or acting like one? When a sceleton of a story is been fabricated by you, and told someone, he reworked it with his own interpretations and told a third one and again reworked and told a forth one, would you still say it was the details of the same sceleton? People might have discussed what they saw on the cross. Then the details and reasons grown-up like snow ball. The contradictions are so visible in the details.

just like Muhammad who added more details to previous passages while learning? Luke ommited a few words buddy. The prayer is the same, the meaning is the same. It was Muhammad who gave a different version 600 years later.

memorizing something does not prove the truth of its source neither its being divine. Many memorize poetry and it surely ain’t divine so your premise is false to begin with. Many memorize the Quranic aya of crucifixion but this will not negate the fact that it is not divine but gnostic.

We have Matthew’s writing of the prayer and Luke’s simpler version. You are making a big deal of something we don’t even think of. No Christian panics over which version to use cuz 1- it’s simply the same and 2- the Lord’s prayer is not a “magic formula” that you have to repeat with the exact same words. There are NO “exact words” you must repeat otherwise God “will got mad” and put you in hell. This might be an Islamic view with all your sets of rituals but this is NOT what Jesus said since Jesus could care less about these robotic details because He teaches us the opposite. God is far more interested in our hearts when we pray than He is in our words. Matthew 6:6 teaches us, “But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.” Matthew 6:7 goes on to say, “And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.” In prayer, we are to pour out our hearts to God (Philippians 4:6-7), not simply recite memorized words to God.

Instead, the Lord’s prayer should be understood as an example, a pattern of how to pray, not a fixed magic formula. The Lord’s Prayer teaches us to pray. It gives us the “ingredients” that should go into prayer. Here is how it breaks down.

“Our Father in heaven” is teaching us that God is our Father.

“Hallowed be your name” is telling us to worship God, and to praise Him for who He is.

“your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven” is a reminder to us that we are to pray for God’s plan in our lives and the world, not our own plan. We are to pray for God’s will to be done, not for our desires.

Then we are encouraged to ask God for the things we need in “give us today our daily bread.”
“Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors” remind us to confess our sins to God and to turn from them – and then also to forgive others as God has forgiven us.

The conclusion of the Lord’s prayer, “And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one” is a plea for help in achieving victory over sin and a request for protection from the attacks of the devil.

Whether you use these exact words, or different words is the same because we do not follow letters.

So, again, the Lord’s prayer is not a prayer we are to memorize and recite back to God.It is not a memorize-it-or-else prayer! It is only an example of how we should be praying. Remember, in prayer, God is far more interested in us communing with Him and speaking from our hearts than He is in the specific words we use. Philippians 4:6-7 says , “Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.”

So please, stop projecting your Islamic views on Jesus or the gospels. Jesus couldn’t care less of what you are objecting to. Jesus couldn’t care less about specific words to use while talking to God. We are not people who memorize to please God, we are not people who repeat things because we have to, we are people who address our God as a Father, with any words we want because we are communicating with Him, not repeating magic words to appease Him. I hope this time you will understand this once for all.

I think the problem here is, it wasn’t something Jesus (pbuh) taught to pray LIKE THIS,

Matthwe 6:9 "Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 'Your kingdom come
Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. 11 'Give us this day our daily bread. 12 'And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 ‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]’

Luke 11:2 He said to them, “When you pray, say: " 'Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come. 3 Give us each day our daily bread. 4 Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us. And lead us not into temptation.”

What is it, ‘debts’ or ‘sins’ originally?

If you don’t follow it in the same way, your choice.

 

[Khalfan]

how can something be lost in a richer testimony? the Law requires at least 2 because it makes the testimony more valid and richer. Law courts ask many witnesses in order to draw a picture of what happened yet you come to tell me all this is wrong? a problem? a problem is when ONE man claims to receive messages via an angel when no one even saw that angel and then start opposing all previous prophets. This is the problem my friend, not 4 testimonies. There is nothing lost on the contrary. There is the same testimony by different people to different audiances. Jesus was not interested in people writing down every single word He said. People were not taking notes when He was preahing. Jesus couldn’t care less about people following words but about people following Him. He sent dozens of people to preach His word, He did not send books. He did not send books to prove who He is…he sent people and said : those who do not accept you , dust off your sandals and leave. He did not say search the scriptures for me, He said : COME TO ME. He said " i am standing at your door, if you open i’ll enter", He did not say open the book to find me! we are NOT people of the book. We are people of the Word.These people preached about the Messiah, the Son of God, who came so that they have eternal life through Him. Looking for words or exact prayers or exact rituals or how to pray and how to eat and how to sleep , Jesus couldn’t care less about these things. We follow Jesus. We do not follow a book. The Bible did not exist as it is now in the first century, What existed are the disciples who established dozens of churches everywhere, who taught and preached till their martyrdroom, leaving after them other disciples who continued writing and preaching till their death and then disciples after them, all when the church was growing and growing and the faith established. Later when heretics like gnostics and arians started teaching things on their own to mislead people writing their own versions of the gospels with truth and fiction did the church decide to gather the faith, the apostles’ letters and writings into a unified book so that no heretics mislead people. So please stop projecting your Islamic understanding of scripture on us. Our faith existed long before the NT you read now. We do NOT rely on the NT only to know who Jesus is. We rely on the testimony of the first disciples and their disciples whom we call church fathers whom Jesus sent. If you do not believe their testimony, they just dust off their sandals. So again, we are not people who follow rituals to be saved…we are not people who have specfic prayers to repeat or specific position to pray toward or specific rakaat to pray. We are people saved by God out of love, not out of personal merit. The gospels are a testimony of Jesus, not a set of words that must be memorized to be saved. The gospels are a testimony of what God did, not a book of rituals to be saved. Jesus is a not a prophet confined to a book, Jesus is a LIVING prophet, a living rabbi, a living priest, a living God who is knocking at our door. To know Him, we talk to Him directly and to know of Him from scriptures, we read OT, NT and tradition passed on by the disciples.The gospels, again, are personal testimonies of Jesus’ disciples, each in his own words to his own audiance. Take it or leave it, as Jesus said.

yes we know. We ask those who witnessed the authors and they say who they are : our church fathers.

some Christians? it was hundreds of bishops from all the churches, not a bunch of Christians buddy. And where did you get your date from? and no, they were not looking for what they believe in lol, they HAD what they believe in in letters and gospels and tradition.

destroyed forever? am not sure since even the heretics’ words are reported by the church so maybe you can enlighten me on this. As to being rejected, sure, if they were not apostolic. What did you expect us to do? welcome any nutcase who wrote anything?

Mark 1:14 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,

Mark 1:14 After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God.

Is that Gospel (Good News = Injeel), purely those gospels, without the words of disciples, without versions, without difference in concepts, available today?

what 2 and what 7 are you talking about? you mix everything together that one is unable to follow you. Please be more specific…

choose all the NT apocrypha you want. They still oppose the Quran. You must understand by now that apocrypha, though it might have many orthodox teachings which it can be read,no problem, but it cannot be considered as canon because it is not apostolic. So you do not have a case even with the apocrypha.

Quote:

Pope Damasus I assembled the first list of books of the Bible at the Council of Rome in 382 AD. He commissioned Saint Jerome to produce a reliable and consistent text by translating the original Greek and Hebrew texts into Latin. This translation became known as the Latin Vulgate Bible and was declared by the Church to be the only authentic and official Bible.

There are 76 books in the Clementine edition of the Vulgate Bible: 46 in the Old Testament, 27 in the New Testament, and 3 in the Apocrypha.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate

 

[inJESUS]

I read many things but not the answer.

HAVE THE WISDOM OF MAN IN JESUS (pbuh) HAD THE ACCESS TO THE WISDOM OF GOD IN JESUS (pbuh)?

Hope the question is clear. I don’t want to know the nature of Jesus or of God or of man. Just answer the question, instead of red-harring.

red-herring? i said He had both but i don’t know how.

He wouldn’t pray if the wisdom of man in him had the access to the wisdom of God in him. He could find answer from it without any prayer. But he prayed, which means,

a) He didn’t know he is Wisdom of God which is equal God according to you. or,
b) He were unable to use the Godly power as and when needed. In other words, God in him was unable to help him in needs.

In both case, claim of the divinity in him becomes a lie.

how did you mix all this is beyond me. What answer was Jesus looking for in the first place? was He asking the Father a question? where?

Second, if He has divine wisdom, does it stop Him from behaving like a man or what? maybe in His divine wisdom He should have uttered divine knowledge to bewilder the audiance and feel good about Himself? wake up buddy, He did not come to parade about who He is but to help, guide, and save us, using human means to make people understand.

|If i have told you earthly things and you believe not, how shall you believe if i tell you of heavenly things?"(John 3:12).

Relax buddy, Jesus knew about the heavenly things no human knows or knew about but He knew what to reveal and what not to reveal, what people can understand and what they can’'t, using simple parables to make it easier for humans to understand.

2- who said that if He wanted to use Godly power, He was unable?

buddy, He came not to have fun. He did not show off His power. He had control over nature, He raised the dead, He multiplied food. No one was able to put his hand on Him unless the our came. The our must be fulfilled as written in scriptures. Yet He did not need any power because He knew what He came for . So your premise is wrong to begin with.

But lets tackle it from a different perspective . It means if we don’t understand how God has the power to have divine wisdom and human wisdom, it becomes a lie. Pray explain to me how exactly did Allah bargain with your prophet over the prayer number. Wasn’t he talking Arabic? using vocal sounds and letters that a human can understand? if you don’t know how exactly Allah did this, then it’s a lie. Absurd isn’t it?

In simple words, Jesus had the knowledge of God and heavenly things that no human has a clue about. Jesus has the power no human has. Yet Jesus knew what to reveal and what not and He knew when to use His power and when to let things be accomplished. God’s business buddy, not ours.

Quote:
knowlege does not negate feelings.

Do you realise what you said? If I am about to attend an exam, and I can foresee, i will pass it with 90 % mark, do you expact me to be anxiety of the exam? Knowledge of the result do negate the feelings my friend. Think twice before you talk.

absurd , utter absurdity. Is an exam like being flogged to death dear Muslim? is a test like being crucified? i\ll tell you what : let someone hit you with his car, not too strong as to kill you, but just to break your bones and ribs and twist your spine…but hey, i tell you beforehand you will survive…go ahead, enjoy.

Prophets (pbut) to be saved, was saved. Specially when they prayed to be saved.

lol and all those who were killed, are you sure not even one prayed for salvation? give me their names and what happened to them. Heck you dont even know their names so how in the world can you know if they prayed or not? what about ordinary people dying in their bed asking for salvation yet they die, are they less human than prophets? is this the islamic logic?

We don’t believe he is in any image we can imagine of.

but he said you are created in his image.

He do love, be angry, happy but he is above all human feelings.

how exactly? he does not feel how humans feel? it means He doesn’t understand our feelings?

We believe God do only Godly things (Good) and not the human charecteristics as jelouse, repent, decieve, confusing, helpless, breaking promises etc.

doesn’t your book say Allah is the best deceiver?

Do we believe in it literally? that is the question. You believe in it literally. Otherwise how could any christian draw the image of father as a white beard old man? How could you believe he repented? he was jelouse? he confused people?

none of us believe literally any of what you mentioned. Ever heard of anthropomorphism? it is using human characteristics to convey an idea. It does not mean God has the characteristic. Just like saying God’s hand, God’s face ecc. When you apply this to your book, know that it existed long before.

He is using our language that we can understand him.

ahhh so He did use something human for our sake, didn’t He? He did use our language, He did speak to us as if He has vocal chords and lungs, He did speak to us as WE understand iin our limited minds didn’t He? did it make Him lesser God? what happens if He decides to come to us like a man while staying God. He suddely can’t?

If he swear on something that unknown to man, would’t we be confused what is it? If it was to be known to us, he did convayed his message so.

the God of the Bible swore ONLY by Himself and we understood pretty well. Yet Allah swears by created things and you still consider creatures bad.

And you get that in your Bible right?

sure.

“There are three that bear witness in heaven, Father, son and holy ghost and these three are one”

Hold on a second… where is that in this BIBLE? Bring me another bible. Yaa it is hear… thank God. Wait… it is not in this MOST RELIABLE EARLY MANUSCRIPT.

same as before. Argument from silence. It is found in many of the manuscripts, add to that the early church father. Absolutly No prob. And still has nothing to do that God is our Father who feels for us, not a sensless dictator that knows nothing about our feelings as if He did not create us.

See Jesus says, ‘I AM GOD’. But it wasn’t in this Bible yesterday. Don’t worry… we will remove it, if someone ask. Let it be there untill then. We can sell this Bible for whole lot of money…

he said I am God in the apocrypha yet we reject them. Jesus, our God, if not found in the Bible (though it is clearly) is found in the writings of His disciples and their disciples since the first century in addition to non-Christians documents before any NT compilation. No prob whatsover. Put off your islamic lenses.

Oh yaa… Thats why many of the NT quotes reffering OT is in fact missing or misplaced in OT.

naa there are paraphrasing, like what your prophet plagiarized from Paul, or combining scriptures like Matthew, or clear and cut quotations.

The quote ‘God, why have you forsaken me’ from a willful partner of atonement is unimaginable, especially when he himself is God. That is what any reasonable mind of any layman can see in that quote. As you have said earlier, you don’t need a harward degree to understand that.

naaa you missed the meaning of the choice of the Psalm. The Psalm ends with victory . It talks about suffering and victory.

 

[inJESUS]

Here, since am positive you never read the Psalm Khalfan:

Jesus quoted Psalm 22:1 which begins with, “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?”. Jesus quoted this Psalm in order to draw attention to it and the fact that He was fulfilling it there on the cross. In other words, the Psalm was a prophecy about the death of the Messiah and His victory so when Jesus pointed out to this exact Psalm, He was saying that He is fulfilling the scriptures. Consider these verses in the Psalm:

13 They open wide their mouth at me, As a ravening and a roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within me. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And Thou dost lay me in the dust of death. 16 For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; 18 They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots.

His heart has melted within Him . During the crucifixion process, the blood loss causes the heart to beat harder and harder and become extremely fatigued. Dehydration occurs. Verses 16-18 speak of piercing His hands and feet and dividing his clothing by casting lots. This is exactly what happen as described in Matt. 27:35.
Psalm 22 was written about 600 years before Christ was born. At that time, crucifixion had not yet been invented. when Rome ruled over Israel, it became the Roman means of capital punishment imposed upon the Jews whose biblical means of execution was stoning. Jesus is pointing to the scriptures to substantiate His messianic mission and His fulfillment.

 

[Khalfan]

how did you mix all this is beyond me. What answer was Jesus looking for in the first place? was He asking the Father a question? where?

He prayed to be saved from cross if possible. He prayed IN PRIVATE.

Second, if He has divine wisdom, does it stop Him from behaving like a man or what? maybe in His divine wisdom He should have uttered divine knowledge to bewilder the audiance and feel good about Himself? wake up buddy, He did not come to parade about who He is but to help, guide, and save us, using human means to make people understand.

Again , red harring? the question was, HAVE THE WISDOM OF MAN IN JESUS (pbuh) HAD THE ACCESS TO THE WISDOM OF GOD IN JESUS (pbuh)?

If he had, he wouldn’t pray in private, since that is not the way to teach people, being in private.

If he hadn’t,

a) He didn’t know he is Wisdom of God which is equal to God according to you. or,
b) He were unable to use the Godly power (to know the will of the father atleast, before he start to pray) as and when needed. In other words, God in him was unable to help him in needs, (since it didn’t help him in needs).

If i have told you earthly things and you believe not, how shall you believe if i tell you of heavenly things?"(John 3:12).

Relax buddy, Jesus knew about the heavenly things no human knows or knew about but He knew what to reveal and what not to reveal, what people can understand and what they can’'t, using simple parables to make it easier for humans to understand.

What ae you saying, either the wisdom of man in him had access to the wisdom of God in him or he hadn’t? It can’t be Yes and No. It is self contradicting.

2- who said that if He wanted to use Godly power, He was unable?

buddy, He came not to have fun. He did not show off His power. He had control over nature, He raised the dead, He multiplied food. No one was able to put his hand on Him unless the our came. The our must be fulfilled as written in scriptures. Yet He did not need any power because He knew what He came for. So your premise is wrong to begin with.

But lets tackle it from a different perspective. It means if we don’t understand how God has the power to have divine wisdom and human wisdom, it becomes a lie. Pray explain to me how exactly did Allah bargain with your prophet over the prayer number. Wasn’t he talking Arabic? using vocal sounds and letters that a human can understand? if you don’t know how exactly Allah did this, then it’s a lie. Absurd isn’t it?

In simple words, Jesus had the knowledge of God and heavenly things that no human has a clue about. Jesus has the power no human has. Yet Jesus knew what to reveal and what not and He knew when to use His power and when to let things be accomplished. God’s business buddy, not ours.

Can God be a man? I agree, God can be a man. Can a man be God? Subject to confirmation. It is not scriptural. None of the people before Jesus (pbuh) believed in it. It is illogocal. Since the in the explanation, the purpose of becoming so is to die for the sins of others, same God already confirmed, no one can die for other. Even the same Jesus (pbuh) never said he is God. If it is based the divinly interpretations of something he said, while very humanly interpretations do exist, it has to be an imposed divinity. And you already agreed, it is something out of your understanding. Your are not sure about your interpretations than just pointing to a possibility.

absurd , utter absurdity. Is an exam like being flogged to death dear Muslim? is a test like being crucified? i\ll tell you what : let someone hit you with his car, not too strong as to kill you, but just to break your bones and ribs and twist your spine…but hey, i tell you beforehand you will survive… go ahead, enjoy.

Can God help the man in ‘Jesus’, not to feel pain? Yes. I hope you won’t disagree that.

How could you foresee, I won’t die? Are you God, or a prophet?

lol and all those who were killed, are you sure not even one prayed for salvation? give me their names and what happened to them. Heck you dont even know their names so how in the world can you know if they prayed or not? what about ordinary people dying in their bed asking for salvation yet they die, are they less human than prophets? is this the islamic logic?

Where did salvation came from? What salvation have to do with killing? If any prophet got killed by his enymies, how would that stop him from entering heaven? What do you mean by salvation, being here on earth in phisical body forever? Is that the Christian logic?

but he said you are created in his image.

Where?

how exactly? he does not feel how humans feel? it means He doesn’t understand our feelings?

Does he have to become a man to know our feelings? No my dear. He is our creator. He knows us and our feelings better than us.

doesn’t your book say Allah is the best deceiver?

Not exactly. That word ‘makara’ can also mean decieve. Even if we take that verse for ‘deciver’, it doesn’t misrepresent God since God deciving the decivers, not the innocents or good people. God have his own way to punish the sinners; it’s his right to do so.

none of us believe literally any of what you mentioned. Ever heard of anthropomorphism? it is using human characteristics to convey an idea. It does not mean God has the characteristic. Just like saying God’s hand, God’s face ecc. When you apply this to your book, know that it existed long before.

ahhh so He did use something human for our sake, didn’t He? He did use our language, He did speak to us as if He has vocal chords and lungs, He did speak to us as WE understand in our limited minds didn’t He? did it make Him lesser God? what happens if He decides to come to us like a man while staying God. He suddely can’t?

He can. If he come to us in human form, and still be God, he have to be so. He can’t be contradicting himself by praying to another God or his God, since God cannot have another God or more powerful part of his own. He won’t talk about his God. He won’t say, he is helpless of anything unless he is enpowered by some other God or the greater part of his own. If he do, he is not God. If you imagine a man did both, then that man wasn’t God. In concern of Jesus (pbuh), you will say i am again mixing 2 natures of him. But please keep in mind, muslims christian and jews do accept his human nature, which is unquestionable. Then the 2nd nature, the God part is known only to you Christians. If he had God nature in him he was supposed to claim that plainly. He was supposed to show something of that divinity while he was on earth. What you have is, some (mis)interpretation of his quotes which can also be interpreted as from a messenger as many others; some forgery quotes like 1 john 5:7, Mark 1:1; some gardually developed stories written by unknown authors and later thological invensions. If we keep those doubtful writings away, what left is a big zero in support to his divinity.

the God of the Bible swore ONLY by Himself and we understood pretty well. Yet Allah swears by created things and you still consider creatures bad.

Did I say, the creatures are bad? Don’t argue on something I never said or believe. What I said is, God is above and defferent from his creatures. God can see, we too can see, but we cannot compare our sight and of God. God hear, we too hear, but we cannot compare our listening power with of God. In that same way, none of the attributes and feel of God cannot be compared or leveled with of man. To me, both swaer (whether it is on himself or on his creatures) is valid since it God and he have the right to do so. God swore on creatures in Quran. Consider those creatures, you will understand the imporatnce of that creature and that was the purpose for why God did so.

same as before. Argument from silence. It is found in many of the manuscripts, add to that the early church father. Absolutly No prob. And still has nothing to do that God is our Father who feels for us, not a sensless dictator that knows nothing about our feelings as if He did not create us.

It is really a big problem for many of your own scholars my dear. For the very same reason, that it can be a fabrication. The earlist manuscript you have itself is from centuries after Jesus (pbuh).

Why the manuscripts, the living gospels itself miss to record many events said in the other gospel. Many events said Mark is not there in John and many said in John is not there in Mark. Same applies to other two gospels as well. Now there are manythings that never said in any gospels but in the letters of Paul. Life of Jesus (pbuh) until he was 30 year old is not recorded in any book. Similarly, there can be many events and teachings of Jesus (pbuh) that is not recorded by anyone in any books that accepted by church. In that point of view, how can you deny any events mentioned in Quran? You are not supposed to since you know it possible to have happened and were untold in the gospels or any available writings. In fact, Quran doesn’t make any claim that wasn’t there among the Jews.

Cont…

 

[Khalfan]

Cont…

he said I am God in the apocrypha yet we reject them. Jesus, our God, if not found in the Bible (though it is clearly) is found in the writings of His disciples and their disciples since the first century in addition to non-Christians documents before any NT compilation. No prob whatsover. Put off your islamic lenses.

Jesus (pbuh) was never been a question among Jews, Muslims or among any other people except for some of todays hypothesists saying he never lived on earth. Only the divinity was/is and will always be in question. Secondly, what people believed/believe is not the question, but what was he in reality is the question.

Do you have any record of the below people?

Matthew 27:52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

Such a great event in the history of mankind, dead people rose and walked the street, must be there in all records. Isn’t it? But seems like only matthew saw those people walking the streets.

naa there are paraphrasing, like what your prophet plagiarized from Paul, or combining scriptures like Matthew, or clear and cut quotations.

Yaa… I can see that. Matthew 27:9-10 quote about the potter’s field to Jeremiah, when Jeremiah has no such passage, and the closest one in the OT is Zechariah 11:12 ! Matthew 2:23 refers to an OT prophecy being fulfilled “He shall be called a Nazarene” The entire OT doesn’t such prophecy !!

naaa you missed the meaning of the choice of the Psalm. The Psalm ends with victory. It talks about suffering and victory.

Here, since am positive you never read the Psalm Khalfan:

Jesus quoted Psalm 22:1 which begins with, “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?”. Jesus quoted this Psalm in order to draw attention to it and the fact that He was fulfilling it there on the cross. In other words, the Psalm was a prophecy about the death of the Messiah and His victory so when Jesus pointed out to this exact Psalm, He was saying that He is fulfilling the scriptures. Consider these verses in the Psalm:

13 They open wide their mouth at me, As a ravening and a roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within me. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And Thou dost lay me in the dust of death. 16 For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; 18 They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots.

His heart has melted within Him . During the crucifixion process, the blood loss causes the heart to beat harder and harder and become extremely fatigued. Dehydration occurs. Verses 16-18 speak of piercing His hands and feet and dividing his clothing by casting lots. This is exactly what happen as described in Matt. 27:35.

Psalm 22 was written about 600 years before Christ was born. At that time, crucifixion had not yet been invented. when Rome ruled over Israel, it became the Roman means of capital punishment imposed upon the Jews whose biblical means of execution was stoning. Jesus is pointing to the scriptures to substantiate His messianic mission and His fulfillment.

John 19:25 …But standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby…"

Those people were standing so near to the cross. But none of them heard the Psalmic quote. In which language he quoted that? Hebrew in Matthew, Aramic in Mark. Matthew and Mark never saw any woman standing near the cross but far from it.

Another possibility, was it prophecy historyfiying?

 

[Keikiolu]

Cont…

…{snip}…

Khal,… your moslem materialism is right on target. You’ve successfully debunked all of Christianity, in terms of the limited mindset of islam.

Well done.

It would be nice, of course, if you’d try to understand the mindset of Christianity when you use the words and concepts of Christianity to “debunk” Christianity.

Since you hae no interest in doing that, everything you say is very humorously irrelevant, as you and your “targets” aren’t speaking the same language…!

Best to you, you vaccuously verbacious one, you…!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.