Muslims: How could the Trinity NOT work?!

[ELDEN_S_WIFE]

Praying for Charity, Enlightenment, Salvation and Peace for all.

 

[Booklover]

Jedda, just this once I’m going to play your little game of posting “conversion” stories. Here are a couple of articles by fthe founder of FFI, Iranian ex-Muslim, Ali Sina:

However, the real Islam is not what its philosophers and mystics have inferred but what is in the Quran and that is the Islam of the fundamentalist and the terrorist. The real Islam is the Islam that abuses women, that allows men to beat their wives, that imposes penalty tax on the religious minorities, that wants to dominate the world by subduing all the non-Muslims, that calls for Jihad and killing the non-believers until Islam becomes the only dominant religion of the World.

My rejection of Islam is not based on the bad deeds of the Muslims but on the bad teachings of its holy book and on the bad deeds of its founder. Many cruelties and heinous acts of violence, perpetrated by Muslims throughout the centuries were inspired by the Quran and the Sunnah (the examples of the prophet). That is why I condemn ISLAM for the bad things that Muslims do.

news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=142

Later I realized that these prejudices and hatreds that Muslims harbor in their hearts against almost all non-Muslims is not the result of any misinterpretation of the teachings of the Quran but is because this book teaches hate and encourages prejudice. There are many verses in the Quran that call the believers to hate the non-believers, fight them, call them najis, subdue and humiliate them chop their heads and limbs, crucify them and kill them wherever they find them.

news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=143

Vickie

 

[George_Waters]

It is not our problem if Muhammad got it wrong. It is not our problem if you think it is polytheism because Muhammad got it wrong . It is not our problem if you reject scriptures for a person who got things wrong. But it is our duty to show that he got things wrong as all the Muslims who believe that his words are the words of an all-knowing deity instead of the incorrect words of a human who did not understand what he was talking about.

Well said!

 

[scapularkid8]

I think that in response to God creating the Universe in system and scientifically so, I agree with. What I cannot agree with is placing the same logic of the creation upon the Creator. Disagreeing with this does not show inconsistency of thought, or inconsistency within God, it merely accepts the Divine Mystery that is God. Yes the creation bears qualities of He Who Is, but who are we to even attempt to apply OUR logic (a poor, no, failed version of His) upon the Creator?! It was His free gift to give us the weak logic that we do have, and it was given in His image: that means it is incomplete compared to His. That is arrogance and that is where a blasphemy could arise by saying “well I’m a human and I’m logical and so is the universe, so by MY definition of ‘one’ no Trinity can exist…” (even though the Trinity is One!).

Maybe I didn’t make myself clear. The Nature of God is not comprehensible by human logic. Why? We are the creature of the Creator. Humanity can never fully describe God with our failing language. God, however, is perfect in all these aspects: He wills humanity to know Him (the Father), He speaks to humanity so they can know His Ways (the Son/Word), and makes them like Himself (Spirit).

Tell me from this assessment where my logic was flawed so we can further our discussion based on our minds, not ancient writings that I don’t accept as true.

Thanks to God for his enlightenment of logic to the human mind.
John 8:32 "Then you will know the Truth, and the Truth shall set you free."

 

[George_Waters]

The Nature of God is not comprehensible by human logic. Why? We are the creature of the Creator. Humanity can never fully describe God with our failing language. God, however, is perfect in all these aspects: He wills humanity to know Him (the Father), He speaks to humanity so they can know His Ways (the Son/Word), and makes them like Himself (Spirit).

Another Well Said!

 

[scapularkid8]

Praise God George, not me! He’s the one who gave us this beautiful logic in the first place!

 

[Khalfan]

Number 1:

whoever wrote this passage clearly thought that Trinity does not mean One God and clearly did not understand that “son” is not to be taken literally. From Christian point of view, this is not wrong since neither trinity means more than one God, nor “son” means God got married

How do you explain the word ‘SON’ or ‘BEGOTTEN’ of God? Literally? If not, don’t take what Quran said in literal meaning.

the correct theological wording is" Jesus is God" and NOT God is Jesus. Again,whoever wrote this sentence did not understand the difference neither the Christian teachings.

Isn’t it the same Jesus (pbuh) that wept and slept? I know you will say, ‘NO NO that was the human part in him.’ Didn’t the human part know the God part in him? Why the human part was almost ignored by the God part in him?

again, Trinity is NOT joining other “gods” to God. Whoever wrote this verse did not understand what the Trinity is about.

But you only name them, In the name of Spirit, Son and Father. Do you imagine Father when you refer SON? Do you imagine Son when you refer Spirit? Do you imagine Spirit when you refer Father?

Were the having different independent Wisdom or it was the same Wisdom of one God?

i assume that Allah means God and not “the Father” since God is not known to be the Father in Islam. And since we do NOT believe that God is a third of 3 gods but simply ONE God, then again whoever wrote this verse was mistaken.

You simply don’t know what you are saying. When we go in detail, same old reply ‘It is a MYSTERY’.

All in all, whoever taught you about the Trinity did not even understand what it means, giving you all the impression that it is more than one God. Obviously, i’d expect the all-knowing God who knows what the Trinity is to word it correctly.

He did exactly that. He even refered it by name in Quran which never ever mentioned in the entire BIBLE.

If Jesus (pbuh) himself was God, he would never say ‘MY GOD AND YOUR GOD’.

 

[scapularkid8]

I see you have still chosen not to answer my argument and decided to uncharitably nit-pick the arguments of one who did not ask to have their argument torn apart…I on the other hand have placed my logic on the chopping block, don’t drag someone else into it. Thanks.

 

[pro_universal]

The Nature of God is not comprehensible by human logic. Why? We are the creature of the Creator. Humanity can never fully describe God with our failing language. God, however, is perfect in all these aspects: He wills humanity to know Him (the Father), He speaks to humanity so they can know His Ways (the Son/Word), and makes them like Himself (Spirit).

Tell me from this assessment where my logic was flawed so we can further our discussion based on our minds, not ancient writings that I don’t accept as true.

The problem is that this doesn’t actually make the case for the trinity.

Coming up with three things that are nice about God does not constitute showing how Jesus is fully God, and the Father is fully God, yet the Father is not Jesus. If the trinity means anything it at all, it stands for the above…and the above is quite clearly a contradiction.

This is the primary theological problem that led me to leave the Church. I realize that it is much believed, but the fact that many adhere to the doctrine cannot change the fairly plain contradiction in terms that any expression of the doctrine will contain.

 

[hamba2han]

If Christians truly believe in there being only One God to be worshiped, then the real question has to be:

Why do Christians even need a ‘Trinity’ in order to worship God?

It serves no purpose whatsoever and it makes absolutely no sense at all why the creations should worship any part of this so-called ‘Trinity’ except their One Supreme Creator.

For any of the creations to assign any kind of divinity at all to either one or both of these 2 other parts of this ‘Trinity’ has definitely committed a blasphemy in Islam and will very likely indeed result in that creation being sent to the Hell-fire.

005.072-73
They do blaspheme who say: “Allah is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

 

[dolphinlove]

If Christians truly believe in there being only One God to be worshiped, then the real question has to be:

Why do Christians even need a ‘Trinity’ in order to worship God?

It serves no purpose whatsoever and it makes absolutely no sense at all why the creations should worship any part of this so-called ‘Trinity’ except their One Supreme Creator.

For any of the creations to assign any kind of divinity at all to either one or both of these 2 other parts of this ‘Trinity’ has definitely committed a blasphemy in Islam and will very likely indeed result in that creation being sent to the Hell-fire.

005.072-73
They do blaspheme who say: “Allah is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

You want to know why we need the trinity??
You dont even understand the trinity, so why bother asking why we need it?
To begin with, you dont even believe Jesus died on the cross.
Secondly, you only believe in a book called the quran, which in itself is written and made up by a man that got bored with life.
Thirdly, we have given you explanation after explanation after eeplanation, but as usual, you keep going at it like a bull at a gate and we keep repeating ourselves over and over again. I dont know how many times you want us to give you the same answer… There is only a number of ways you can describe one thing!

And for the record, Jesus said:
Matthew 28:19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

 

[JFonseka]

Ahlan wa sahlen,

If God/Allah is infinite in His Design, what stops Him from fulfilling His Will by manifestation of Three Most Holy Persons in One Essence? It defies human logic and our definition of “one”, but for God nothing is impossible OR illogical because He IS His own definitions, not ours.

Peace to all. I am not trying to start an argument, I’m merely curious about the Muslim perspective of the idea of the Sacred Trinity.

God is an infinite being, you don’t resort to comprehending infinity using human logic, this is just one argument…

Omnipotence’s definition doesn’t state it has to fall under human logic. Divine nature far exceeds human logic and understanding, you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to fathom this.

 

[JFonseka]

Hi

GodAllahYHWH is all powerful and he could do anything he wants, true.

Then some people ask: Can GodAllahYHWH create as stone which He cannot lift?
The answer is no, and truly so.

Some others ask: Can GodAllahYHWH tell a lie?
The answer is no, and truly so.

In fact these questions are wrong, the question are not correctly prepared.

GodAllahYHWH has attributes, which work in a system that is why this whole Universe is working noiselessly, unimpaired and uninterrupted. We see systems everywhere. If there were no systems there would be no science and no arts. Since, these system work under truthful laws, and that is why inventions are made and humanity progresses.

These systems and laws are unblemished, without a defect or demerits. Why? Because our God is unblemished and without defects, his creations while working perfectly as desired of them, get an impression/imprint of the creator.

Our God does not tell lie, as it is a defect to tell a lie; not an honor, not respectful, so our God won’t do that.

Our God won’t make a stone that he cannot lift, that would be a defect, a laughable thing .

Similarly GodAllahYHWH cannot create trinity, three in one and one in three, a defective thing. Why not simply ONE, the three cannot subsist , it is a defective creed, a myth , a blemish, a defect; it is against his attributes, against the impress on every thing created, working under one law, one system of an unblemished God.

No other Revealed Book answers to such questions, as they have not remained true impress/imprint of GodAllahYHWH due to human interference, Quran does answer such question with claim and reason, as it has been made a *muhaimenun *on them, clearing their defects and covering them as a guardian would do, overpower them all. I just quote some verses:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 5: Al-Ma’idah

5:49] And We have revealed unto thee the Book comprising the truth and fulfilling that which was revealed before it in the Book, and as a guardian (*muhaimenun *)over it. Judge, therefore, between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their evil desires, turning away from the truth which has come to thee. For each of you We prescribed a clear spiritual Law and a manifest way in secular matters. And if Allah had enforced His will, He would have made you all one people, but He wishes to try you by that which He has given you. Vie then with one another in doing good works. To Allah shall you all return; then He will inform you of that wherein you differed;

The Holy Quran : Chapter 21: Al-Anbiya’

[21:21] They glorify Him night and day; and they flag not.
[21:22] Have they taken gods from the earth who raise the dead?
[21:23] If there had been in the heavens and the earth other gods beside Allah, then surely both would have gone to ruin. Glorified then be Allah, the Lord of the Throne, far above what they attribute to Him.
[21:24] He cannot be questioned as to what He does, but they will be questioned.
[21:25] Have they taken gods besides Him? Say, ‘Bring forth your proof. This Qur’an is a source of honour for those with me, and a source of honour for those before me.’ Nay, most of them know not the truth, and so they turn away.
[21:26] And We sent no Messenger before thee but We revealed to him: ‘There is no god but I; so worship ME alone.’
[21:27] And they say, ‘The Gracious God has taken to Himself a son.’ Holy is He. Nay, those whom they so designate are only His honoured servants;
[21:28] They speak not before He speaks, and they only carry out His commands.

So Quran mentions the Claims and Reason on every important religious issue, it is a talking book, a wonder of God, an imprint of God. No other Book is like this one.

I think it is sufficient for today.

Thanks

Everytime you try to point that the doctrine of the trinity is inconsistent with a single God, I will keep pointing out inconsistencies of Mohammed’s word, look for the thread.

 

[scapularkid8]

God is an infinite being, you don’t resort to comprehending infinity using human logic, this is just one argument…

Omnipotence’s definition doesn’t state it has to fall under human logic. Divine nature far exceeds human logic and understanding, you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to fathom this.

Wait…are you agreeing with me or calling my argument into question?

 

[inJESUS]

How do you explain the word ‘SON’ or ‘BEGOTTEN’ of God? Literally? If not, don’t take what Quran said in literal meaning.

in the gospels AND OT,it is not literal. Why does the Quran take it literally? because Allah was HORRIFIED at the idea.Why would he be so “horrified”,as if scandalized, if it were spiritual,just like in previous scriptures?

Isn’t it the same Jesus (pbuh) that wept and slept? I know you will say, ‘NO NO that was the human part in him.’ Didn’t the human part know the God part in him? Why the human part was almost ignored by the God part in him?

number 1: this does not explain why the author of the Quran got it wrong theologically.

number 2 : Jesus wept, ate, slept, felt tired, felt agony, felt happy as any human being. Being divine does not negate the fact that He incarnated as a true man, and NOT someone who looks like a man but is in fact divine. He was Truly man, truly divine.

But you only name them, In the name of Spirit, Son and Father. Do you imagine Father when you refer SON? Do you imagine Son when you refer Spirit? Do you imagine Spirit when you refer Father?

you said it. In the NAME of One God (Father, Son, Spirit). If you imagine God’s Wisdom when you think about God, does it mean you are thinking about another god?

You simply don’t know what you are saying. When we go in detail, same old reply ‘It is a MYSTERY’.

number 1: this does not explain why the author of Quran got it wrong when he is supposed to be all-knowing.

number 2: if you say God is not a mystery then you are not talking about the same God.

Number 3: you, as a Muslim, do you know the NATURE of God? if not, then it is called mystery, or isn’t it?

He did exactly that. He even refered it by name in Quran which never ever mentioned in the entire BIBLE.

i assume you are not an Arab since the word Trinity ( Thaluth) is not mentioned once in the Quran.

If Jesus (pbuh) himself was God, he would never say ‘MY GOD AND YOUR GOD’.

going back to the same argument. And if Jesus is not God, He wouldn’t have identified Himself with God. Result? you cant choose one and reject the other because He was BOTH : Divine AND a man born under the Law to fulfill the Law as a man.

 

[inJESUS]

If Christians truly believe in there being only One God to be worshiped, then the real question has to be:

Why do Christians even need a ‘Trinity’ in order to worship God?

 

[JFonseka]

God is an infinite being, you don’t resort to comprehending infinity using human logic, this is just one argument…

Omnipotence’s definition doesn’t state it has to fall under human logic. Divine nature far exceeds human logic and understanding, you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to fathom this.

I’m confused now lol. Well let’s say in short, my stance is…through God…ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE, whether or not it makes sense to our finite understanding. I think you were arguing the same thing, nothing is impossible for God, so there you go

 

[Keikiolu]

{snip}

My Conversion from Christianity to Islam

Introduction
I have written my story of conversion to Islam mainly for the benefit of other (would-be) western converts, especially those who, like myself, come from a genuinely religious Christian background. Whilst Christianity and Islam have much in common, there remain fundamental differences about which no compromise is possible, principally concerning the Christian doctrine of Trinity and the belief that Jesus is divine.

Moving from being a practicing, sincere, if somewhat intellectually dissatisfied Christian to embracing Islam is therefore in some respects a major theological journey.

This (bolded above) is a KEY point…!

Islam is ultimately a materialistic rationalistic psycho-political system. It’s aim is to create a willing slave who thoroughly believes that he has no free will, and must “submit” to the “hyper-rationalism” of the socio-political structure which is islam.

By removing the humanity (Fatherness) from God, the humanity of society can be minimized so that each strata of “domination” within islamic society can best “make it’s profit” from the level below it.

As someone who has already undertaken that journey, I hope that my travelogue may in some way help smooth the path of those who follow. The following hadeeth (saying of Prophet Mohammed) comes to mind:

Once a man, who was passing through a road, found a branch of a tree with thorns obstructing it. The man removed the thorns from the way. God thanked him and forgave his sins. (Bukhari)

Through detailing my own experiences for the benefit of others of a similar background, I would like to think of myself as removing some of the figurative thorns which obstruct the road from Christianity to Islam.

I converted to Islam before I became Internet-aware and had to do all the research for myself. It was essential to me that my investigation of Islam result in intellectual and theological satisfaction. I trust that others from a similar background to mine will find that some of my experiences along the path from Christianity to Islam serve as useful pointers and starting points for investigation in their own spiritual quest.

My Personal Background
I converted to Islam in October 1998 when aged 31. I am originally from Ireland where I was born into a practicing Catholic family, but I have spent nearly all my adult life abroad. In the mid to late 1990’s I was in love with a Muslim lady whom I had met whilst in an Islamic country. I knew that if I were interested in marrying her, I would have to convert to Islam, as Muslim women are prohibited from marrying outside their faith. I did not at all welcome the prospect of having to become a Muslim. In fact, although I knew very little about Islam the religion, a particularly negative experience I had just had of working in a different Muslim country had, if anything, rather soured my opinion of things to do with Islam and reinforced whatever general western disinclinations I may already have felt. Nevertheless back in Europe during the spring and summer of 1998 I read all the text books I could find in college and public libraries about Islam (factual accounts, textbooks, mainly by non-Muslims) and discovered, somewhat to my surprise, that I could agree with 90% of the religion without any difficulty. I actually became rather enthusiastic. I realized that I had been making the mistake of judging Islam by the behavior of some of its more unsavory nominal adherents rather than by the theological and moral teachings of the religion itself.

Jesus - Son of God?
Where I did have a real problem, though, was with the role of Jesus. I had been brought up a Catholic Christian, believing in the Holy Trinity of God the Father, Jesus the Son plus the Holy Spirit - three persons in one god. Islam rejects this and teaches the absolute oneness of God (Tawheed) and specifically that Jesus, though a great prophet, was only human and not divine.

O People of the Book [Christians and Jews]! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His messengers. Say not “Trinity”: desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. Quran 4:171

So you leave us with believing 90% of islam, and no reason for not believing in the Trinity, other than islam’s misunderstanding of the meaning of the Trinity, and islam’s misunderstanding of what “Son” means in regards to Jesus.

Hmmm,… How is this supposed to “remove the thorns” on my path from true religion to quasi-christiian-semi-judaic heresy?

Please explain further. Thanks.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

God is an infinite being, you don’t resort to comprehending infinity using human logic, this is just one argument…

Omnipotence’s definition doesn’t state it has to fall under human logic. Divine nature far exceeds human logic and understanding, you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to fathom this.

And, as the first Christians who confronted Islam found out, you can use the Quran to prove this. When the muslims conclaimed that they knew of nothing that was three in one, the Christians quoted the Quran 112:4 “And there are none like unto Him.”

 

[meedo]

Ahlan wa sahlen,

If God/Allah is infinite in His Design, what stops Him from fulfilling His Will by manifestation of Three Most Holy Persons in One Essence? It defies human logic and our definition of “one”, but for God nothing is impossible OR illogical because He IS His own definitions, not ours.

Peace to all. I am not trying to start an argument, I’m merely curious about the Muslim perspective of the idea of the Sacred Trinity.

Hello and peace be to you ,

I am a muslim.

There is notng that prohibits God from doing what he wants to do .

There is nothing that prohibits God from bieng a tree, or a Hamburger or a Solar system or an alien.

There is nothing that prohibits God from bieng Moses or Muhammed or whatever.

The basic principle of God is that he is one . One Part , one Form , one bieng , one person. one entity.

1-Now if someone wants to detail God into three parts of one person , like a hand and a mouth and a leg. Three distinct parts but one Human and indivisable . shouldnt we have a proof of that first ?

The idea is that the establishment of God as a concept of trinity is not a matter of pure rejection of the will of God but it is out of simple deviation of the understanding of God by all prophets of God since Adam passing by Abraham and moses till Muhammed.

Even Jesus himself never expressed explicitly anything about trinity. And ofcourse the Old Testament doesnt have any understanding of a triune God untill the christians began to interpret it as such . Meaning that there is no concept of a triune God in the history of Gods revelations before or after Abraham.

2- The 2nd reason to be very careful and that people should err away from trinity at best is that it is ( as per Judaism and Islam ) a form of idoltry in which a human form is said to have a divine powers and status. and should be worshipped as such .

This is clearly idolatry in Judaism and Islam and is runs against all what revelations given prior to Jesus .

Conclusion: God can be whatever he wants to be . But did he tell us that he is a trinity with a human part?

thanks and May peace and Guidance be for us all

salam

Meedo