Muslims: How could the Trinity NOT work?!

  • Thread starter Thread starter scapularkid8
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Thanks for your answer meedo.

One thing I still cannot grasp is when you said:

“1-Now if someone wants to detail God into three parts of one person , like a hand and a mouth and a leg. Three distinct parts but one Human and indivisable . shouldnt we have a proof of that first ?”

My response is why do we need God to prove Himself to us? Who are we to place His Majesty under a human microscope and demand proof…the proof is in it’s own definition. God is the only word/idea/being that is proven by the definition He is referred to as. If His definition implies three distinct parts, but one God (Trinity), there need not be any proof because He has defined and proven His nature.

Again, thanks for your reply and Peace be with you as well.
 
Conclusion: God can be whatever he wants to be . But did he tell us that he is a trinity with a human part? Meedo
If you agree God can be anything the possibility exists the many manifestations of God could include a human form. It would certainly be a rare event if God was the Inspiration of a man. If God did become man would He live forever like God, or die like all men do? Since there is life after death…there is always Life isn’t there?

Is God spirit?
And they ask you (O Muhammad SAW) concerning the Rooh (the spirit); Say: “The Rooh (the spirit): it is one of the things, the knowledge of which is only with my Lord. And of knowledge, you (mankind) have been given only a little.”
( سورة الإسراء , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #85)
Did God walk through the Garden of Eden looking for Adam?
Genesis 3:8
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
God is eternal but created life dies, and is reborn all the time. The human could have lived for maybe 1000 years if there was no sin if you believe the Torah/OT how old Adam thru Noah was. We are special.

The other spirit realm must be considered too, because that is where temptation first came from to Adam & Eve.
He said: Seest Thou this (creature) whom Thou hast honoured above me, if Thou give me grace until the Day of Resurrection I verily will seize his seed, save but a few.
( سورة الإسراء , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #62)
I believe that statement is self incriminating to the spirit that uttered it to Mohamed. I’m sure we differ on whom is the few, but maybe not like you expect. Satan wins if more people burn in hell than live in paradise, and that is what the Koran describes Satan winning as part of the Way of Allah.

We both believe there is an afterlife, but they are very different.

The man Jesus was killed for His message of redemption for the sins of the World, and Lived to confirm it for us as Christ the Lord with simple instructions to love one another.

The man Mohamed lived his message of retribution and died afraid of the dark with oppressive administrative details for daily life for non-Moslems as well as Moslems.
 
… Even Jesus himself never expressed explicitly anything about trinity. …
Hi meedo,

Actually, Jesus mentioned that the world would not understand the Holy Spirit (see John 14:17). And I think you’ll agree that He was right. So, He did make references to the concept of The Trinity.

Do you believe that God is omnipotent? Good. Then you’ll believe that God can exist in as many persons as He likes.

I know that God exists in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, because our bible tells us so. But muslims will never accept this, because muslims believe (with blind faith and no evidence) that the bible is corrupt. (Unlike the Qur’an, the Bible is a story of prophecy, and that’s why we know it contains Truth.)
 
How do you explain the word ‘SON’ or ‘BEGOTTEN’ of God? Literally? If not, don’t take what Quran said in literal meaning.

The Quran says that God sees, hears. Does he have eyes, ears?

Isn’t it the same Jesus (pbuh) that wept and slept? I know you will say, ‘NO NO that was the human part in him.’ Didn’t the human part know the God part in him? Why the human part was almost ignored by the God part in him?

The same way the Quran is a text here, yet it claims to be a preserved tablet in heaven.

But you only name them, In the name of Spirit, Son and Father. Do you imagine Father when you refer SON? Do you imagine Son when you refer Spirit? Do you imagine Spirit when you refer Father?

A Father is not a father until he has a son (or daughter).

Were the having different independent Wisdom or it was the same Wisdom of one God?

How is Christ the Spirit of God and the Word of God (as said in the Quran) and not God?

You simply don’t know what you are saying. When we go in detail, same old reply ‘It is a MYSTERY’.

I am sorry that the infinite God has not reduced himself into a finite mathematical formula that fits your (and my) finite limited understanding.
An infinite God comprehended by the finite human mind cannot be God.

He did exactly that. He even refered it by name in Quran which never ever mentioned in the entire BIBLE.

The word Bible is not mentioned in the Bible. The idea Scripture is, ditto the Holy Trinity.

If Jesus (pbuh) himself was God, he would never say ‘MY GOD AND YOUR GOD’.
Ever heard of talking to yourSELF?
 
Why do Christians even need a ‘Trinity’ in order to worship God?

It serves no purpose whatsoever and it makes absolutely no sense at all why the creations should worship any part of this so-called ‘Trinity’ except their One Supreme Creator.

For any of the creations to assign any kind of divinity at all to either one or both of these 2 other parts of this ‘Trinity’ has definitely committed a blasphemy in Islam and will very likely indeed result in that creation being sent to the Hell-fire.
As someone else stated it is not a need for humans, the Nature of God is what IS.

A reason or logic behind the Trinity can be found in Sheed’s Theology for Beginners. I would recommend all Muslims (and Catholics) read this book as it is a clear exposition of Catholic Theology that is very accessable.

Sheed states the reason for the Trinity is so that God’s love can be fully realized. Since we are just finite beings God can not love us to his utmost ability (which is infinite) just as a man cannot love a dog to his full capability (this takes a woman in the bonds of marriage).

So you have 3 persons in the ONE God all loving each other infinitely. The Father loves the Son, the Son loves the Father and both Love the Spirit and vice versa. So the 3 persons of God, the Trinity, all have the same nature (infinite, eternal) and all Love each other to their utmost ability.

As humans and finite beings we cannot fully experience the love God has to offer; only the amount/kind of love that our finite souls CAN experience. We can get a glimps of God’s love in the Mass, loving others and allowing ourselves to be loved. We will experience to our utmost ability God’s love when we experience the Beatific Vision in heavan.

I hope this helps. Islam has an incomplete picture of God and of God’s love and I pray that muslims are given the grace to see the love that God has to offer.

God is your Father…God is Love…Not a slave owner
 
So you have 3 persons in the ONE God all loving each other infinitely. The Father loves the Son, the Son loves the Father and both Love the Spirit and vice versa. So the 3 persons of God, the Trinity, all have the same nature (infinite, eternal) and all Love each other to their utmost ability.
Hi

Jesus , in my opinion, was not killed on Cross, he died a natural death in Kashmir, India.

All physical bodies and spirits are created by GodAllahYHWH, so the Spirit cannot be God, in my opinion.

This way two pillars/persons of Trinity are gone.

GodAllahYHWH is great, the Creator of everything in the Universe, Worthy of every Praise, the Unblemished.

Thanks
 
Hi

Jesus , in my opinion, was not killed on Cross, he died a natural death in Kashmir, India.

All physical bodies and spirits are created by GodAllahYHWH, so the Spirit cannot be God, in my opinion.

This way two pillars/persons of Trinity are gone.

GodAllahYHWH is great, the Creator of everything in the Universe, Worthy of every Praise, the Unblemished.

Thanks
Jesus said… AFTER he rose from the dead… Yes he did die on the cross…

Matthew 28 16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.
 
Ahlan wa sahlen,

If God/Allah is infinite in His Design, what stops Him from fulfilling His Will by manifestation of Three Most Holy Persons in One Essence? It defies human logic and our definition of “one”, but for God nothing is impossible OR illogical because He IS His own definitions, not ours.

Peace to all. I am not trying to start an argument, I’m merely curious about the Muslim perspective of the idea of the Sacred Trinity.
Hi scapularkid8, peace to you as well. To be honest the trinity is the single most confusing doctrine I’ve encountered. As much as I try to understand it I end up back to square one asking the same questions which then prompts answers like “It’s a complex concept” and that “you just have to accept it in your heart” or frustrated answers such as “you don’t understand trinity”, “we keep repeating the same answers but you just don’t get it”

It’s true that we don’t get it. Scapularkid8 you just asked “what stops Him from fulfilling His Will by manifestation of Three Most Holy Persons in One Essence?”

By definition “a person” is an individual, a solitary, autonomous entity with its own conscience and will. therefore when you say three most holy persons, you are implying three separate individuals. so how can there be one God who is three individuals. It just doesn’t make sense, maybe if you stop using the term ‘persons’ all together or redefine the word to mean something else, although I don’t know what you would define it as.

Another poster said “God is not Jesus” BUT “Jesus is God”, in other words the equality is not interchangeable which negates itself. For a lack of a better example it is like saying (2+1 = 3) but (1+2 = not 3)

The trinity is an important doctrine in Christianity because your practices as Christians are based on this doctrine. I understand you believe it but do you understand it? that is to say does the mind and the intellect really accept such a concept? For myself at least the answer is no I can not understand it and therefore I can not accept it or base my beliefs on a doctrine that I cannot understand.

In the Islamic thought on the other hand. God is one not just in essence but in every aspect of the word, both literally and figuratively.
 
The question is directed to Muslims “how could the trinity NOT work?” therefore it is useless to argue that trinity works because it says so in the bible, that is because as Muslims we don’t believe in the bible we have now. It is just like a hindu using their scripture against a Christian in order to prove their belief is the right one, the Christian obviously doesn’t believe in the hindu scripture.

When you say God is One “essence” that manifests Himself in three persons. You have essentially divided Him into parts because he is physically in 3 separate bodies. One body on earth called “the son”, one body in heaven called “the father” and one body called “the spirit”.

His essence is one that is monotheism, but his manifestation is in 3 persons, that is polytheism. By this belief he is a divided God who has at least one component of Him physically separate from Him. No offense to anyone but it sounds like a circular logic.
He is one essence manifested in 3 persons but the persons are not individual they are all the same, yet the are separate at least physically. Now my head is spinning :confused:
 
one of my favorite quotes about God is from Imam Ali’s (as) book “Peak of eloquence”

The foremost in religion is the acknowledgment of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute.

Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognizes His like, and who recognizes His like regards Him two; and who regards Him two recognizes parts for Him; and who recognizes parts for Him mistook Him; and who mistook Him pointed at Him; and who pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him; and who admitted limitations for Him numbered Him.

Whoever said in what is He, held that He is contained; and whoever said on what is He held He is not on something else. He is a Being but not through phenomenon of coming into being. He exists but not from non-existence. He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation. He acts but without connotation of movements and instruments. He sees even when there is none to be looked at from among His creation. He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence.

Source: nahjulbalagha.org/SermonDetail.php?Sermon=1

wow… very logical and so deep, you can write a book explaining that one quote alone
 
The foremost in religion is the acknowledgment of Him
If the mind is devoid of any conception of Divinity, there would be no question of obedience, nor of following any code; because when there is no aim there is no point in advancing towards it; where there is no object in view there is no sense in making efforts to achieve it.

the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure
Allah should be regarded free of all defects and deficiencies, and devoid of body, form, illustration, similarity, position of place or time, motion, stillness, incapability and ignorance because there can be no deficiency or defect in the perfect Being nor can anyone be deemed like Him because all these attributes bring down a being from the high position of the Creator to the low position of the created. That is why along with Unity, Allah has held purity from deficiency of equal importance.

He is God, the only One,
God the Everlasting.
He did not beget and is not begotten,
And none is His equal. (Quran 112:1-4)

“Vision perceiveth Him not, and He perceiveth (all) vision; He is the Subtle, the All-aware” (Qur’an, 6:104).

“. . .Nothing whatsoever (is there) like the like of Him; and He (alone) is the All-hearing and the All-seeing.” (Qur’an, 42:11)

attributes should not be put in Him from outside lest there be duality in His Oneness, and deviating from its proper connotation Unity may fall in the labyrinth of one in three and three in one, because His Being is not a combination of essence and form so that attribute may cling to Him like smell in the flowers or brightness in the stars. Rather, He is the fountain head of all attributes and needs no medium for manifestation of His perfect Attributes. If He is named Omniscient it is because the signs of his knowledge are manifest. If He is called Omnipotent it is because every particle points to His Omnipotence and Activity, and if to Him is attributed the power to listen or to see it is because the cohesion of the entire creation and its administration cannot be done without hearing or seeing but the existence of these attributes in Him cannot be held to be in the same way as in the creation namely that He should be capable to know only after He acquires knowledge or He should be powerful and strong only after energy runs into His limbs because taking attributes as separate from His Being would connote duality and where there is duality unity disappears. That is how Amir al-mu’minin has rejected the idea of attributes being addition to His Being, presented Unity in its true significance, and did not allow Unity to be tainted with stains of multiplicity. This does not mean that adjectives cannot at all be attributed to Him, as this would be giving support to those who are groping in the dark abyss of negativism, although every nook and comer in the entire existence is brimming with His attributes and every particle of creation stands witness that He has knowledge, He is powerful, He hears, He sees. He nurtures under His care and allows growth under His mercy. The intention is that for Him nothing can be suggested to serve as an adjunct to Him, because His self includes attributes and His attributes connote His Self.
 
The Quran says that God sees, hears. Does he have eyes, ears?
Even if Quran doesn’t say, God indeed see and hear. Does he have to have eyes and ears like we have? Who told you that? Again. Don’t take everything in literal meaning. It is for human understanding that the language made easy. We understand that. Do you? Do you understand, where ‘Son of God’ or ‘God’ is mentioned in the Bible, is not to be taken literally, that God begotten sons (even in spiritual essence), or any Son of God can be equal to God? Jesus (pbuh) himself clarified it in gospel. But you still fight to promote Jesus (pbuh) as God.
The same way the Quran is a text here, yet it claims to be a preserved tablet in heaven.
Are you an egyptian? It is not the text preserved, but the content/message. It is irrelevent to the question.

Didn’t the human part in Jesus (pbuh) know the God part in him? Why the human part was almost ignored by the God part in him?
A Father is not a father until he has a son (or daughter).
And son cannot have a father without a mother. Does that apply to God? your answer is irrelevent again.

You name them, In the name of Spirit, Son and Father. Do you imagine Father when you refer SON? Do you imagine Son when you refer Spirit? Do you imagine Spirit when you refer Father?
How is Christ the Spirit of God and the Word of God (as said in the Quran) and not God?
Ref please. As already said, don’t take everything literally. Read the context as well.

Were they having different independent Wisdom or it was the same Wisdom of one God?
I am sorry that the infinite God has not reduced himself into a finite mathematical formula that fits your (and my) finite limited understanding. An infinite God comprehended by the finite human mind cannot be God.
So it is a mystery to you as well. Thank you and I don’t need explanation on that.
The word Bible is not mentioned in the Bible. The idea Scripture is, ditto the Holy Trinity.
Mystery again?
Ever heard of talking to yourSELF?
That is what you believe. Otherwise tell me, who Jesus (pbuh) was praying to save him from the cross? to whom he was asking, why he got forsaken?
 
in the gospels AND OT,it is not literal. Why does the Quran take it literally? because Allah was HORRIFIED at the idea.Why would he be so “horrified”,as if scandalized, if it were spiritual,just like in previous scriptures?
Allah was not horrified of the usage ‘Son of God’ or ‘God’ to refer men, but when people started taking it literal meaning and started worshiping human.
number 1: this does not explain why the author of the Quran got it wrong theologically.
You have to exlain that.
number 2 : Jesus wept, ate, slept, felt tired, felt agony, felt happy as any human being. Being divine does not negate the fact that He incarnated as a true man, and NOT someone who looks like a man but is in fact divine. He was Truly man, truly divine.
If Jesus (pbuh) was God and Man at the same time, he could have prayed to himself. The man in him could have prayed to the God in him. But he didn’t do that. The God in him could have helped him in many events were he needed the help of God. But he wasn’t getting that as well. By just a claim that he is God and Man in one, nothing gets proved but expression of a blind belief.
you said it. In the NAME of One God (Father, Son, Spirit). If you imagine God’s Wisdom when you think about God, does it mean you are thinking about another god?
We don’t imagine Wisdom of God as different from him, but you do and you call it Jesus Christ.

Why is it not IN THE NAME OF SON, SPIRIT and FATHER?
number 1: this does not explain why the author of Quran got it wrong when he is supposed to be all-knowing.
He is all-knowing. The trinity concept is human invention, so that it wasn’t mentioned even in the OT and Jews were wondred on it.
number 2: if you say God is not a mystery then you are not talking about the same God.
But both of us don’t say God is a mystery, but the trinity, the three in one concept. His spiritual existence is not a mystery for any of us. He revealed himself in scriptures. So there cannot be mystery in that too.
Number 3: you, as a Muslim, do you know the NATURE of God? if not, then it is called mystery, or isn’t it?
I know the nature of God as he have explained in scriptures. Jews doesn’t know of trinity who is supposed to know it from OT, if they have anything at all from God. Even Jesus (pbuh) himself didn’t know about it. Trinity is a later Christian invention as we can see in 1 John 5:7.

Continued.
 
Continue.
i assume you are not an Arab since the word Trinity ( Thaluth) is not mentioned once in the Quran.
It is mentioned.

5:73 They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

4:171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

Like the other words, I don’t know how do you name trinity in arabic. But the concept is mentuioned clearly in the Quran.
going back to the same argument. And if Jesus is not God, He wouldn’t have identified Himself with God. Result? you cant choose one and reject the other because He was BOTH : Divine AND a man born under the Law to fulfill the Law as a man.
Did he identified himself as God? Not even once. can you make a clear quote than interpretation?

**If it is God became man, that drama on cross is totally illogic. Becasue God became man, died and then again became God. No love, No sacrifice; since God loses nothing. If God became man, then he is no longer God, and you cannot call Jesus (pbuh) God. If he was still God then why he was praying to someone else? That contradicts the earlier concept too that he was God and Man at the same time. And then you cannot say, God dead on the cross, becasue that’s blasphemy. Trinity is an everlasting mystery and you believe in something even the founders couldn’t understand. **
 
Allah was not horrified of the usage ‘Son of God’ or ‘God’ to refer men, but when people started taking it literal meaning and started worshiping human.

which people took it literally? surely not Christians. So if Allah has no problem with the spiritual meaning of the title, then he was accusing Christians of a physical meaning of the title. Since he is supposed to be all-knowing, he must have known that it has nothing to do with physical sonship so his explanation is baseless.
You have to exlain that.
 
Hi

Jesus , in my opinion, was not killed on Cross, he died a natural death in Kashmir, India.

All physical bodies and spirits are created by GodAllahYHWH, so the Spirit cannot be God, in my opinion.

This way two pillars/persons of Trinity are gone.

GodAllahYHWH is great, the Creator of everything in the Universe, Worthy of every Praise, the Unblemished.

Thanks
I do believe we have asked our friend to supply some proof of his assertions.

Has any proof been forthcoming?

Do we have an admission by silence that there is no proof to produce?

Need we pay any further attention to repeated assertions?
 
one of my favorite quotes about God is from Imam Ali’s (as) book “Peak of eloquence”…wow… very logical and so deep, you can write a book explaining that one quote alone
Thanks. You have made the error of Mohammedean ideology more clear. First, the average man shares many of the attributes you ascribe to allah alone: mercy, compassion, anger…Second, you say allah is all powerful, but it is you (becasue of Mohamed) who limit what God can be by saying it is not possible or likely He could become man.

Because Catholics/Christians believe Christ is God, you (Mohamed) assume the attributes have become physical when they never had before. Was He not a whirlwind during the day, and a pillar of fire at night during Exodus? Who were the three (3) men that visited Abraham on their way to Sodom?

This quote if from your other post:
Allah should be regarded free of all defects and deficiencies, and devoid of body, form, illustration, similarity, position of place or time, motion, stillness, incapability and ignorance because there can be no deficiency or defect in the perfect Being nor can anyone be deemed like Him because all these attributes bring down a being from the high position of the Creator to the low position of the created. That is why along with Unity, Allah has held purity from deficiency of equal importance.
Why speak of unity when you deny there is anything to unify? Jesus’ attributes could be described as such since He is without equal. Mohamed falsely associates himslef as being ‘most like’ Christ since Mohamed does not legitimately share the attributes of Jesus/God.

List any number of attributes of character and see which apply to whom, and which do not.
Murderer
Assassin
Gentle
Thief
Greedy
Peacefull
Vengefull
Mercifull

If the criteria is being perfect in these attributes it still applies.
Mohamed was the perfect murderer and assassin, a most splendid thief, and his vengence was popular with Moslems.

God, like Christ (redundant) is none of those things Mohamed is, and Mohamed is none of those things remaining that God (Christ) is. God is perfect. As a man, Christ is perfect.
 
Dear Verisimilitude,

You say Jesus (as) is without equal but this is not true because he is equal to Adam (as).

Jesus (as) birth was miraculous, so was Adam (as) birth. Just as Jesus was born through God’s command “Be” and he became so was Adam (as).

You say Jesus Christ (as) is perfect and I agree with that. He has to be infallible / perfect in order to deliver a perfect divine message. Just as all prophets were perfect. That is because the imperfect or fallible messenger can not guarantee he will receive the message and deliver it perfectly. Only an infallible messenger can deliver a perfect message because he does not make any mistakes in his receipt of the message and in his delivery of it. This is a logical and reasonable requirement. They are chosen by God, they are the best examples for mankind, they are infallible and do not make mistakes for if they made a mistake then people may follow them in that mistake It doesn’t make the messenger divine.

Dear Verisimilitude, we are talking apples and you are talking oranges. The topic is trinity and how it could not work what does this have to do with the character of Muhammad (sa) ? please stick to the topic, God willing I will answer all of your accusations about the prophet in a separate thread but please first reply to the valid concerns about trinity which I raised.

When you say God is One “essence” that manifests Himself in three persons. You have essentially divided Him into parts because he is physically in 3 separate bodies. One body on earth called “the son”, one body in heaven called “the father” and one body called “the spirit”. This my friend is not complete monotheism, it is deficient. Contrary to logic and reasoning you divide God into 3 parts and then tell us all 3 physically separate beings or bodies or realities however you want to label them are really one being, without explaining how this is possible.

Whoever said in what is He, held that He is contained
You have taken the infinite being, the One who created the expanding infinite universe that in comparison makes the earth seem like a Small tiny micro spec then reduced Him to the an even smaller spec and gave him a finite body. That is to say you held he is contained. How can the infinite be contained in the finite? explain that for me please be my guest, I’m all ears friend.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top